Speaking of mental illnesses

this thread.

Halo said
Now, I refuse to do the same as you've done back to you, quoting sentence by sentence, because the point never gets reached that way - you just spiral off, arguing about every tiny facet of the others' argument, right down to individual word choice. It strips everything of context and defeats the point of discussion.

Except that each line I responded to had something that needed to be responded to. Glad you've hand waved all of that with a single line of not bothering though.

Halo said As I understand it, your view is thus: "I could be wrong but Wayne's account of his experiences seemed unbelievable to me, therefore he must be lying. I thought it best to call him on it because people faking illnesses is detrimental."

My view is plain as day simple: Question that which is unbelievable until I get to the truth. Wayne deliberately stated later on he had no clue what it is he has. Truth found. Problem solved. What about this is confusing?

Halo said My view is thus: "You have no bloody idea if his experiences are real or not, because you aren't an expert and are limited by your own personal experience. I think it's best not to call people on it because the more vitriolic you are towards people you've decided must be 'fakes', the less comfortable people with real issues feel expressing them, out of fear of receiving the same treatment."

And I pointed out how this doesn't actually go anywhere because if you never question anyone, nobody learns anything. Please just read the damn thread to see how I wasn't being intentionally "vitriolic" and even managed to calm it down at the end to a simple message of telling him to figure out whatever it is he's got with a professional.

Halo said I never accused you of being deliberately spiteful or cruel.

Halo said Brovo, don't be a colossal dickweed.

You must have an enviable memory to not remember your own mistakes you made less than a day ago.

Halo said I know that wouldn't be your intention. I also don't think that, honestly, you were seeking to help Wayne when you started this conversation. You were trying to call him out as a fake - which I understand, considering I know precisely how damaging those faking it can be (as I said, I've been there; you aren't the only one who knows anything), but on which my philosophy differs massively from yours.

Wait, are you trying to form an argument that basis itself in magically knowing my intentions when I deliberately stated my intentions and their results already?... That enviable memory, man.

Halo said The core point of my argument was to highlight my view on this "calling out", and to get you to consider that maybe it could be detrimental.

And I refuted it by pointing out in this thread how it turned out to be not detrimental, actually. You're making no effort to counter that, though, instead pretending that I haven't countered your argument whatsoever. Go back to spam, the arguments are a lot shorter there and thus easier to follow.

Halo said The way in which that point was presented was less than adequate, I'll admit, but I was hoping the core argument/the bigger picture would be taken into account rather than narrowing it down to word choice.

I didn't narrow it down to word choice.

Halo said There is a difference between being privately sceptical, and deliberately trying to call someone out, in public, to prove them as a "fake". The former I fully support. The latter, less so, for the reasons outlined above.

Being privately skeptical on this topic goes nowhere. Telling someone that all the mental disorder claims they have aren't possible, then dissecting it with questions and statements showing it, then seeing them realize they didn't actually know what it is they may or may not have--that was progress. Being privately skeptical and letting everyone fall for misinformation (whether intentional or not is beside the point) would have been damaging to something that affects my personal life.

Halo said All I ask is that you consider that opinion - quoting every tiny word I say and trying to pick apart my argument as if defending yourself from a vicious personal attack, or, even worse, somehow "win" the debate.

All I ask is that you try refuting the points I've already made as to why your point is absolutely wrong.

Halo said This isn't Off-Topic, a debate on a purely intellectual level regarding pros and cons of X political system or Y approach to Z. This is much more personal, and is merely a discussion.

No, this is Roleplay Discussion. Discussions are supposed to happen here. And, as I've already said to Wayne before, if he wants to remake this thread but strip it of personal connotations to speak strictly of the role playing elements of mental disorders, I'd be more than happy to comply to that set of guidelines. Heck I'd do it if someone asked me to do so.

Halo said As for the whole "insult" thing, forgive me - it wasn't meant as a personal attack or vitriolic insult, really. It was akin to calling your mate an asshat or whatever.

"Stop being a colossal dickweed", yes, I can see the humour in this, if there was any intended. Realize though that text rarely conveys the intended emotional weight unless you constantly slew it with various other methods. I had to learn this ages ago due to my own lacklustre empathy.

Halo said EDIT: I think, in essence, I felt the need to comment precisely because I know how important this is to you, and that the idea of somehow being detrimental to the struggles of people with mental illness would absolutely kill you. I felt the way you were acting was potentially damaging when you didn't intend it to be, and felt that should be highlighted as something you should consider in future.

And I think you need to learn how to refute points. Also need to work on that memory, I would appreciate that.

When I roleplay people with mental illnesses... I do something which is probably unforgivable. But, um, well, I do that.

When I play someone who is mentally sick, I do not go and research the mental illness. In fact, I never look up anything at all, not even the name of the illness. I don't even know what I am giving my character. When I create the character, I give them the illness that I want them to have. I give it the properties which I want to roleplay in my character, and twist it the way I want it to function. For instance, at some time I wanted to play a character which was an adult but with the mind of child. I did so, never learned if that was any specific name for that or anything. At another time I wanted to play a character completely unable to feel sympathy or sorrow, or anything else like that, and so I did. At another time, I played someone who got terribly scared and shy without wanting to the moment she even entered vision range of another person. Some of these I don't even know if they are character traits or mental sicknesses, I give my character what I want them to have.

More than once I've had my character whose mind I've twisted a bit be asked about "he has -name of mental illness-, right?"... And my answer is "Could be!". At times, I go check what it was that was referred to, and lo and behold, it was what I had given my character without even knowing the name of it or doing any particular research. I have yet to encounter a time I've been absurdly wrong in what I gave the character, since I never really gave the character that specific mental condition to begin with. I just gave them a mental condition of my customization, after all. Up to the rest to identify which name fits it the closest. Heh-heh.

That's what I do, anyway.

Edit: Of course, I don't mind people who go into detail researching exactly the illness they want for their character. In fact, I respect them, because I could never do the same. This is because, I would get too scared of insulting or misrepresenting actual people with said condition, and as so I shy away from actually calling any such condition by name, even if there is a perfect one for my character. That's just how I work.

Brovo said
-snip-

You... actually can't help yourself, can you? Christ, again, "refute" - this isn't a debate with the objective of somehow 'winning'. If you disagree, you disagree. I asked you to take into consideration my thoughts and opinions; I'm not going to try to force you to accept my view, because I'm far more interested in genuine discussion than simply being right and "refuting" any points you've made to prove how correct I am. Unlike yourself. It's not about proving how right your opinion is, man, it should be about listening to and considering alternate points of view. You approach this like I approach competition debates, not genuine discussions with my friends, peers, family, whoever.
But at this point, 90% of what's being said is arguing about the nature of arguing, or how well I'm arguing, rather than actually paying attention to the relevant points being made. It's an exercise in futility. Please, take away what I've said and think about it on a personal level, rather than as if it's a debate to be won. You don't have to change your mind, but still - consider the fact that I've actually been in the position I'm describing, afraid to speak out about my own genuine problems because of people like you screaming "FAKE AND GAY", so it is something people experience and it is worth thinking about, at the very least, even if you weigh up the different facets of the situation and decide that calling people out causes less harm than not doing so.

Sorry Brovo, but I'm with Halo on this one. It really bugs me how all the discussions in here and in OT always become debates such as these. There doesn't need to be a winner or loser, you know. Halo just wanted to voice an opinion that he wanted you to consider, and honestly I agree with him. Yes, I have read the whole thread and I see in the end that you were being helpful, but for much of it, you didn't come off as such. To me it mostly looked like you were attacking Wayne by calling him out on what may or may not have been a lie, and he seemed rather frustrated by it to me.

I'm not saying that was your intention. I understand that it wasn't. And I understand your reasoning for being skeptical. All I'm saying is that the way you presented your skepticism could easily be misinterpreted as an attack, and I think that's something you should keep in mind. Because, like Halo said, that can be potentially harmful to people with real mental illnesses - and that's a point I agree with. While I see how you were trying to be helpful, I'm not sure Wayne ever really felt like he was being helped.

As for what this thread was intended to be about,

Platinum said When I roleplay people with mental illnesses... I do something which is probably unforgivable. But, um, well, I do that.

When I play someone who is mentally sick, I do not go and research the mental illness. In fact, I never look up anything at all, not even the name of the illness. I don't even know what I am giving my character. When I create the character, I give them the illness that I want them to have. I give it the properties which I want to roleplay in my character, and twist it the way I want it to function. For instance, at some time I wanted to play a character which was an adult but with the mind of child. I did so, never learned if that was any specific name for that or anything. At another time I wanted to play a character completely unable to feel sympathy or sorrow, or anything else like that, and so I did. At another time, I played someone who got terribly scared and shy without wanting to the moment she even entered vision range of another person. Some of these I don't even know if they are character traits or mental sicknesses, I give my character what I want them to have.

More than once I've had my character whose mind I've twisted a bit be asked about "he has -name of mental illness-, right?"... And my answer is "Could be!". At times, I go check what it was that was referred to, and lo and behold, it was what I had given my character without even knowing the name of it or doing any particular research. I have yet to encounter a time I've been absurdly wrong in what I gave the character, since I never really gave the character that specific mental condition to begin with. I just gave them a mental condition of my customization, after all. Up to the rest to identify which name fits it the closest. Heh-heh.

That's what I do, anyway.

Edit: Of course, I don't mind people who go into detail researching exactly the illness they want for their character. In fact, I respect them, because I could never do the same. This is because, I would get too scared of insulting or misrepresenting actual people with said condition, and as so I shy away from actually calling any such condition by name, even if there is a perfect one for my character. That's just how I work.

I do the same thing with my characters, for the most part. Even if I am somewhat basing a character's mental illness off of one that does actually exist, I always try to avoid labeling them by name, just because there's always the possibility that I got something wrong and that I'm misrepresenting a mental disorder that people (potentially even people on the site) might actually have. Seems easier to me just to mix and match whatever traits and symptoms you want to create your own, fictional mental illness for a character. It means more creative liberty, less details you need to get right in order to avoid offending anyone, plus a complete absence of real people to offend.

Brovo apologized and we're all cool now. I suppose I should also throw my own coins into the hat and say sorry too, since I try my best to not get frustrated like I did.

When I talk about mental illness, I don't like to lie. I may not always be accurate in remembering things or getting details right, and I go off of what the doctors have told me that I have or am getting treated for rather than looking some random shit up on the internet and self-diagnosing, and it's not street cred. It's shit that I and many others like me have to put up with every single day. I may come off as having a bit of a silly attitude quite a bit, but I do it as a coping mechanism. The reason why I brought up this topic is because I wanted to have some legitimate discussion to get my intellectual processes back up and running, since they've been running on emergency power for the past few months because of personal shit like I've probably already spouted off about in this thread. I didn't come in here with the intention of making a whole big shitfest.

That said, let's discuss our characters and roleplay endeavors, not make enemies. I partake in online communities to make friends, get to know people, and have fun, not alienate people and get shunned.