Apocrypha!Jack is a bad example, too, because the mystery was never solved and there is no account of who Jack actually was. For all we know Jack could've actually been a homeless orphan girl. Which she is in the Nasuverse, so yeah.

...Also I kind of don't like it when people decide to dump canon just to suit their own desires, so, um... ^^;

Raineh Daze said
Only as an April Fool's joke. I'd take anything from Strange Fake with more than a pinch of salt, unless it's been shown somewhere else. XD Rumours cannot become Servants. The entire mechanism by which a Heroic Spirit exists requires a person in the first place.

I know this doesn't really prove anything due to the fact that the Holy Grail was corrupted at the time, making any manner of weird shit possible, but what about Sasaki Kojirou (Fake Assassin). He was an Imitation Servant or a "Shade" based on a legend about a person who never actually existed.

LittleWing said
I know this doesn't really prove anything due to the fact that the Holy Grail was corrupted at the time, making any manner of weird shit possible, but what about Sasaki Kojirou (Fake Assassin). He was an Imitation Servant or a "Shade" based on a legend about a person who never actually existed.

He was a Wraith, strictly speaking. As one of the nameless swordsmen that served as an inspiration for Sasaki, he was basically the best that Medea was able to bind, since she wasn't able to conjure a Heroic Spirit to serve as her doorman.

The way I understand it is that Servant based on stories are actually possible but they are considered Shades and are weaker than Heroic Spirits.
For example: If Arturia Pendragon and the Legend of King Arthur were both summoned by the same person in the same class, then Arturia would still have better stats than the Legend because she is a true Heroic Spirit while he is only a Shade of her.

Raineh Daze said
to serve as her doorman.

For some reason that makes me laugh.
I just imagine Assassin in a bellhop's hat opening the door for Caster with a bow as she goes past in her mink fur coat.

But then you would have to find a guy whose life was close enough to the legend of King Arthur to actually be summoned as such, which wouldn't happen.

...And like I said, I'm uncomfortable with this idea, and not just because it just doesn't work in canon.

LittleWing said
The way I understand it is that Servant based on stories are actually possible but they are considered Shades and are weaker than Heroic Spirits.For example: If Arturia Pendragon and the Legend of King Arthur were both summoned by the same person in the same class, then Arturia would still have better stats than the Legend because she is a true Heroic Spirit while he is only a Shade of her.

Wouldn't work. Servants are all based on stories. You can only summon a Servant whose legend is known about--differences between reality and what you're expecting don't mean a thing. You'd get Arturia. Kojirou isn't even a proper Servant (no Noble Phantasm), had no supply of mana, and couldn't leave a single location. Using wraiths would produce a severely crippled character.

... additionally, he still existed. It's just that the role he was playing didn't. It is impossible to summon something with no basis in reality, you'll just get the closest thing. If the Heroic Spirit exists, you get the Heroic Spirit. XD

Besides, if OC's are preferred, playing King Arthur in any form isn't an OC.

*shrug* I wasn't defending the idea, I just thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

Also Rin, it has been a while since Apocrypha so I had to look it up to refresh my memory but according to the Type Moon wiki, it's pretty much confirmed 100% that Black Assassin is indeed the true Jack the Ripper.

...That's what I said. She's what Jack the Ripper is in the Nasuverse.

As Moe said, Jack the Ripper in the Nasuverse was an orphaned girl driven to murder do to her horrible situation and frail mental status.

And as it's been pointed out, if you summon someone, you're going to get the closest to them that actually existed. If you summon Arthur, you get Arturia, because she was King Arthur and she actually existed in the Nasuverse.

If you try to summon Sasaki Kojirou... I don't think you'd get Fake Assassin normally, but under the circumstances in Fate/stay night you would get the nameless figure who inspired his legend.

But a requirement of being a Servant is having existed. They have to be figures that existed in the Nasuverse.

Yes, yes, I know they did one in Apocrypha. I haven't been following that, so eh. Also, basically nothing of his stats is available, and his defences are... weird.

Class: Lancer
Master:
True Name: Achilles
Gender: Male
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Appearance: Behold! Truly, the most beautiful warrior at Troy. Don't worry, he looks more masculine when not in disguise.
Personality: Achilles is a self-centred, short-tempered, violent bruiser. He likes fighting. He likes men, and women. What he does not like is people taking his things or killing his friends. Keep away from those two, and he's pretty much just overly boisterous--and rather cocky.
Stats:

• Strength: A


• Endurance: C


• Agility: A+


• Magical Energy: C


• Luck: E


• Noble Phantasm: A++

Class Skills:

• Magic Resistance: B. Even if targeted with High Thaumaturgy or Great Rituals, Achilles is difficult to affect.

Personal Skills:

• Charisma: B. Sufficient to lead a kingdom. Worth noting is that this does not imply being any good at leading people, just having the presence and beauty (see: the halo effect) to pull it off.


• Divinity: A. His mother was a nymph... and given that a god and a nymph produces a god, this seems the best rank.


• Domestic Disguise: A. So long as Achilles refrains from fighting and dresses appropriately, it is impossible to discern that he is even a Servant--though this comes at a cost, as all his abilities are considered a rank down whilst thus disguised, making a sneak attack if identified through some other means. Indeed, thus disguised, Achilles is strangely generic--if seen in different situations, connecting the maid to the Servant cannot be done. Ceases to affect anyone that sees Achilles either drop the clothing, or start fighting whilst disguised.


• Eternal Arms Mastership: A+. Retains full fighting capabilities regardless of any mental hindrance. Acknowledge as the greatest fighter of the Trojan War, Achilles' martial skills are almost without peer.

Noble Phantasms:

• Bathed in the Styx--Invulnerable Body: A++, Support. Achilles, famed for being dunked into an underworld river as an infant, is more or less impervious to harm: one ankle is the only part of his body that actually takes damage, the rest of him just absorbs the entire force of the blow (likely leading to being knocked flying from more powerful things). His insides, however, are not so impervious--so unleashing an attack through his ankle, or mouth, and into the rest of his body will do it pretty well. A direct hit with something on par with Excalibur would overwhelm even this defence... though not to the point of actually killing him.


• Retribution--Unhealing Wounds: C, Anti-Unit. Achilles spear, when used in rage, inflicts wounds that can only be healed by the spear itself... however, as a Servant, this would require Mad Enhancement, so save for the possibility of externally-imposed anger, it's just a very good spear.

Misc: The disguise thing is based on Odysseus resorting to trickery to get Achilles to reveal himself before the war started, the spear based on some king on the way (Telephus?) combined with Achilles' general anger at everything, and the invincibility should be obvious.

O.O Holy, 4 pages of OOC to catch up on, and I didn't even get the last bit! XD Stuff I have no clue about.

In any case, that aside I had an interesting idea. (this is just an idea please do not kill me... ;_;)

How about this Holy Grail war is fought with teams, say X number of players on one side and the same number on the other side. Perhaps black and white for a nice chess analogy. In any case, the two sides vying for the grail have to work as a team. Everybody could have two characters per side, Master and Servant. Or one a servant on one side and a master on the other, either way is fine. Just depends on how many characters you want to have to keep track of. Lastly, one side could be entirely controlled by the GM(s). That's about it.

I mean, The Grail is ultimately in control of how the war is fought, I see no reason why it couldn't alter the format slightly.

I think this idea would make up for quite a few things. What do you guys think?

Well, I've seen that kind of setup used before. And, um, while I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea...

I kind of really like free-for-all Grail Wars. Just, um, alliances forming IC and covert planning and all the setup and kinds of stuff that happens in them is really fun to RP.

But, um, that's just my preference.

I like the Holy Grail War as it's actually setup in the first place. Teams imply some level of organisation, and also require mages to work together well... which is like trying to herd cats whilst blindfolded.

... also planning to write up an Einzbern homunculus, and they will never, ever consider sharing the prize if they can get it. XD

Wait wait wait, okay I just read through the whole discussion about Arthur/cannon material and it would take me good deal of time to respond to all of them individually so I'll just sum up.

I don't understand why Arthur can't be male? I mean, it's the same as altering anything canon. And on that note I would have absolutely no problem altering canon so long as it doesn't change the fundamental rules/laws of the source material. It would be the same as saying the War isn't held in Fuyuki City, that seems to be an established parameter, so why not say Arthur is a male? As far as being an OC, if you change their abilities and Noble Phantasms it's as much original as anything else. I could come up with several ways to make Arthur a heroic spirit apart form the canonical form. Also, if a player's version of Arthur had an entirely different mindset and personality it's even more original.

Not trying to be mean or anything, I just feel that it's these kinds of things that shackle player creativity.

Actually, the Grail War requires a certain subset of conditions. So it could take place anywhere that meets this set of conditions.

And I honestly don't like the idea of scrapping canon characters at all. Wouldn't it be much more interesting to take figures that haven't been used before at all?

Kumori Master said
Wait wait wait, okay I just read through the whole discussion about Arthur/cannon material and it would take me good deal of time to respond to all of them individually so I'll just sum up.I don't understand why Arthur can't be male? I mean, it's the same as altering anything canon. And on that note I would have absolutely no problem altering canon so long as it doesn't change the fundamental rules/laws of the source material. It would be the same as saying the War isn't held in Fuyuki City, that seems to be an established parameter, so why not say Arthur is a male? As far as being an OC, if you change their abilities and Noble Phantasms it's as much original as anything else. I could come up with several ways to make Arthur a heroic spirit apart form the canonical form. Also, if a player's version of Arthur had an entirely different mindset and personality it's even more original. Not trying to be mean or anything, I just feel that it's these kinds of things that shackle player creativity.

Because... I don't think this is necessarily an altered form of canon?

Also, I'll be honest.

Any player-made version of Arthur would suck in comparison.

Raineh Daze said
That Lancer serves as yet another example of a random nobody that for some reason has a ton of buffing abilities. : (

For the record, I'm going to decrease some of the numbers by the time she is legitimately summoned. Also, I wouldn't say she's a nobody in the first place, I think you might just not live in a place where she's famous...

Raineh Daze said
Also, I'll be honest. Any player-made version of Arthur would suck in comparison.

This, so many times this.

At the very least, that's the one thing we can all agree on. XD

Although I'm a little biased because she's my second favourite Nasuverse character. ...Second favourite because Kohaku exists, but yeah.