What other officers? Wilson was alone. Lifting a gun doesn't take a lot of effort, and if you were going to die, I think you could find the strength.

Well, the officers know the risks of going to work each day and If I was a officer (and I would never be), I would not kill the bad guys. Ever.

If you hadn't told me you were 14, I would be made extremely angry. But, your naivete is therefore understandable. Just imagine explaining to a six year old that Daddy isn't coming home because he wasn't allowed to shoot a bad guy.

Rare said
.3) Come on, it's funny that other countries are talking the truth issues in America. Even Russia and Iraq, talked some sense to them.

"Haha! Silly American, your police are killing civilians needlessly!"



"The American government is killing too many of its own citizens!"

I hope you see the point im getting at here.

So Boerd said
What other officers? Wilson was alone. Lifting a gun doesn't take a lot of effort, and if you were going to die, I think you could find the strength.If you hadn't told me you were 14, I would be made extremely angry. But, your naivete is therefore understandable. Just imagine explaining to a six year old that Daddy isn't coming home because he wasn't allowed to shoot a bad guy.

First off, I'm sixteen not fourteen, get that fact right. Second, I don't have any naivete in my and I know it's difficult for a six year old to be told that father is dead because he didn't shoot the bad guy. He will remember that his father was a cop and saved many other lives.

Zendric said
"Haha! Silly American, your police are killing civilians needlessly!"

"The American government is killing too many of its own citizens!"

I hope you see the point Im getting at here.

Yes, I'm. And even known that other countries have done this before, it's still funny and classic.

Omega said
Police are not allowed to aim for the leg or other extremities unless there are extenuating circumstances, it is considered cruel to shoot someone in the leg as it can then be argued lethal force was not necessary to inflict on the person if they could be disabled with a likely non-fatal shot.

Yep. A gun by definition is lethal force. 'When is lethal force authorized' is something people don't necessarily understand.... there's something called a 'threat pyramid,' which I'm not positive they're still using, but the principle is the same. Essentially, the cop is always supposed to be a level higher than whoever's coming at them -- that's a matter of public safety, not cop lulz. If they bring a knife, you bring a gun. If they bring a gun, you bring a tank. You do this because you are the agent of the state, which must at all times possess a monopoly on the legitimate use of force in order to maintain the rule of law. A person who presents noncompliance is *supposed* to be treated with physical control by the police officer. A person who presents a physical threat needs to be handled with superior force. That was (my) cop-101, which admittedly is a bit old and possibly outdated now, but I imagine the principles have remained more or less the same.

Rare said
He will remember that his father was a cop and saved many other lives.

lol, well, his father didn't do shit if all he did was roll over and die.

Rare, did you even read over the discussion regarding shooting to be non-lethal and the issues with that? There's at least an entire page of it.

Also, may the father have done good as an officer or not the Kid is still going to feel awful if his Dad's death was preventable but wasn't prevented out of concern for the murderer.

"We know it sucks you dad died, but you can live happy knowing that he died being stabbed to death rather than potentially wrongfully killing his murderer."

It's simply unrealistic, Rare. If you were a cop, you would have gone through training, with your firearm and otherwise... And the threat of death is a lot scarier than you think. If someone was actually trying to kill you, and you still had use of your firearm, I assure you that you would not allow that person to stab you to death. It would be reflex, as much as anything, but you would not lay on the ground to die.

Also you literally could not be a cop, if you cannot kill someone in self-defense then you cannot be expected to kill in the defense of others. It is not a pretty part of the job but every so often is a necessary one, if cops refuse to kill, if they all only carried one-shot tazers then they would die a lot more often than they do now and a lot more innocent people would die with them.

Things like this do happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

It is miracle there were no fatalities except for the shooters and it was catastrophic enough that the police lacked rifles or other weapons with the necessary capability to defeat the body armor of the shooters.

To be fair, you can't truly know you're able to kill a person until you're in the situation yourself. Some people could very well just freeze up and not be able to.

Suppose, Rare, you are 20 yards away from an old lady and there's a guy with a knife running at her 10 yards to her right. You have a gun. What do you do? "Never kill the bad guys, ever?"

mdk said
lol, well, his father didn't do shit if all he did was roll over and die.

Well, of course, he would be fighting the guy. Not 'roll over and die'.

Magic Magnum said
Rare, did you even read over the discussion regarding shooting to be non-lethal and the issues with that? There's at least an entire page of it.Also, may the father have done good as an officer or not the Kid is still going to feel awful if his Dad's death was preventable but wasn't prevented out of concern for the murderer.

I did read that and I'm just sharing my thoughts on this topic. Yeah, he would still feel away if his father's death was preventable, but that's life.

Omega said
"We know it sucks you dad died, but you can live happy knowing that he died being stabbed to death rather than potentially wrongfully killing his murderer."

Okay, he wouldn't die due to the stab wound, unless it damaged the organs and they didn't make it to the ER room in time.

Imperfectionist said
It's simply unrealistic, Rare. If you were a cop, you would have gone through training, with your firearm and otherwise... And the threat of death is a lot scarier than you think. If someone was actually trying to kill you, and you still had use of your firearm, I assure you that you would not allow that person to stab you to death. It would be reflex, as much as anything, but you would not lay on the ground to die.

Okay, where did you get that I said, "Let the officer just lay on the ground and die.". No, I didn't say that, I said that he should fight him or use his taser on him.

Omega said
Also you literally could not be a cop, if you cannot kill someone in self-defense then you cannot be expected to kill in the defense of others. It is not a pretty part of the job but every so often is a necessary one, if cops refuse to kill, if they all only carried one-shot tazers then they would die a lot more often than they do now and a lot more innocent people would die with them.Things like this do happen:It is miracle there were no fatalities except for the shooters and it was catastrophic enough that the police lacked rifles or other weapons with the necessary capability to defeat the body armor of the shooters.

Go to other countries, that don't allowed guns in the police force, and tell them that.

So Boerd said
Suppose, Rare, you are 20 yards away from an old lady and there's a guy with a knife running at her 10 yards to her right. You have a gun. What do you do? "Never kill the bad guys, ever?"

Well, I would just shot him in the arm or the leg. Making him drop the knife and the old lady lives another day to shop.

Really. You're going to make a leg shot from 20 yards away in profile on a sprinting target? Have you ever picked up a gun? How about smelled one?

But OK, you aim for your tricky shot. You take one second to react and draw your weapon, one second to aim and fire. In that time, our perp, whom we assume is jogging at a leisurely 8.8 feet per second is a mere 12.4 feet from the old lady when you miraculously hit him in the arm. He switches the knife to the other hand and stabs her, or smashes her osteoporitic skull with an enormous fist. Did that old lady "know the risks"? Did she deserve to die because a very young teenage philosophist (not a misspelling) decided the completely innocent old lady's life was his to risk to stop a murderous thug?

So Boerd said
Really. You're going to make a leg shot from 20 yards away in profile on a sprinting target? Have you ever picked up a gun? How about smelled one?But OK, you aim for your tricky shot. You take one second to react and draw your weapon, one second to aim and fire. In that time, our perp, whom we assume is at a leisurely 8.8 feet per second is a mere 12.4 feet from the old lady when you miraculously hit him in the arm. He switches the knife to the other hand and stabs her, or smashes her osteoporitic skull with an enormous fist. Did that old lady "know the risks"? Did she deserve to die because a very young teenage philosophist (not a misspelling) decided the completely innocent old lady's life was his to risk to stop a murderous thug?

No amount of logic is going to affect a change here. Just be done. Internet argument cool-rules aside, at some point, you have to be able to look at another person and reasonably conclude that they've got their head up their ass.

Before I start I just feel the need to highlight, you have me and So Boerd on the same side arguing the same point here.
When you have that happening that should honestly say something.

Rare said I did read that and I'm just sharing my thoughts on this topic. Yeah, he would still feel away if his father's death was preventable, but that's life.

Life sometimes may not be fair, but that doesn't mean an innocent person should die out of fear for their aggressor's safety.
Life isn't perfect, but that's even more reason for us to rationalize these things and try to get the best realistic result possible, rather than making good people die and making life a bit worse as a result.

Rare said Okay, he wouldn't die due to the stab wound, unless it damaged the organs and they didn't make it to the ER room in time.

Or bleeding out, no matter where you're stabbed if enough blood escapes you're as good as dead. On top of that, if the boy was charging him with a knife it is safe to assume the boy intended to aim for vitals.

Rare said Okay, where did you get that I said, "Let the officer just lay on the ground and die.". No, I didn't say that, I said that he should fight him or use his taser on him.

Brovo already brought up the Tasers, and when shown why that wasn't practical to expect he was able to look at the evidence, accept it and retract his previous suggestion/criticism.

As for fighting without a Gun or Taser? The boy has a knife, the officer has his fist or a night stick. Doing so put the officer in far greater danger than need be, and what if say he failed and the boy did kill him? Would other officers be expected to shoot or would they also have to risk their lives is close combat?

Rare said Go to other countries, that don't allowed guns in the police force, and tell them that.

No country completely prevents police from using guns. Some countries simply require it to be a higher level of law enforcement first.

For example in America practically everyone has a gun, in Canada it's common but wouldn't be present for all cases. In the UK they'd probably have to specifically call in for armed support. But an armed boy robbing a store and attacking people? Even in places like that UK that's pretty good grounds to bring in law enforcement that's armed.

Rare said Well, I would just shot him in the arm or the leg. Making him drop the knife and the old lady lives another day to shop.

This was also already addressed, and explained how aiming so precisely (with a moving target no less) is not only risky and difficult, but chances a misfire where someone else can get hurt.

mdk said No amount of logic is going to affect a change here. Just be done. Internet argument cool-rules aside, at some point, you have to be able to look at another person and reasonably conclude that they've got their head up their ass.

True, but a decent attempt should at least be provided before deciding to give up on such a thing.

I could understand police in the US not carrying guns if the violent crime rate in the US and the usage of guns and knives in criminal offenses was lower. As it stands it is rather high nationwide. If we can get gun crime down to similar levels as the UK I would be willing to discuss an immense drawdown for the firepower of US police forces.

mdk said
No amount of logic is going to affect a change here. Just be done. Internet argument cool-rules aside, at some point, you have to be able to look at another person and reasonably conclude that they've got their head up their ass.

In three years, he'll be 17, have handled a gun, and will have realized how ridiculous he used to be. Growing up does that to people.

So Boerd said
In three years, he'll be 17, have handled a gun, and will have realized how ridiculous he used to be. Growing up does that to people.

So Boerd, I told you before, I'm 16 not 14. You just saying that to get to all piss off. Alright, I'm done fighting you guys, it's pointless as you all will just talk back with good points. Since, I'm 16, my views might (and will) change when I get older. After all, I still have a young person's mind. Well, it has been fun and all, but ending this debate. In short, it's sad that the boy died, but that's life and people die for officers alot lately. We might just get use to it and not have a big breaking news about it. It was fun talking with all of you. :p

Rare said
So Boerd, I told you before, I'm 16 not 14. You just saying that to get to all piss off. Alright, I'm done here, it's pointless as you all will just talk back. Since, I'm 16, my views might change when I get older. After all, I still have a young person's mind. Well, it has been fun and all, but ending this debate. In short, it's sad that the boy died, but that's life and people die for officers alot lately. We might just get use to it and not have a big breaking news about it. It was fun talking with all of you. :p

My mistake. 19 then.

So Boerd said
My mistake. 19 then.

It's fine.