Chrononaut said
Well, I buy games and enjoy them very much so this is really not a problem for me. I've known games journalism was bullshit for a while and actively ignore it. Since I'm responsible for my own purchasing decisions and tend to make good ones, gaming journalism doesn't factor into how or when I buy things.

Same with me - But when game developers actually take advice to dumb their games down from these people who, by their own admission, hate/suck at all video games, all gamers suffer.

Dipper said
Same with me - But when game developers actually take advice to dumb their games down from these people who, by their own admission, hate/suck at all video games, all gamers suffer.

I doubt developers are taking "advice" from single idiots. They test these things with groups, like movies (depending on company). You don't look to a "reviewer" when you're selling to a mass market. On the whole most gamers aren't videogame masters.

http://trenchescomic.com/comic/

If you scroll down, on each comic you can read a story from someone actually in the industry. Usually it's something horrible.

"Anyway, the Vice-President of this very large corporation decided to drop by for a visit. We’d been warned beforehand of this visit. What we weren’t warned about was that the VP decided to drop in one of the matches we were in (testing connectivity issues with another country). We were given a quick “don’t do anything stupid” talk, so we played around on the game like you were “supposed to”.

A few minutes later, another call came down to cut loose. So we did, instantly turning the battlefield into chaos. The VP, needless to say, died very quickly. But what did happen, is one of the testers ran over to the VP’s body and teabagged it (as was the custom in those days).

Not a full minute passed before the test lead burst into the bay and screamed his lungs out, demanding to know who did it. None of us spoke, since we didn’t know who did the deed and the person who did it didn’t speak up.

So, after having a job where I got to play video games for a whole month, our entire section was unceremoniously fired."

That is unfortunate, and honestly suits need to be put on a leash, but we still need people like Bobby Kotick, good buisnessmen. Too many suits, we get games approved by comitee, and 'we needs to reach out to the CoD base.

Too little, you get dreamfactories like Shaffer or games like Bioblunder Infinite and Brutal Legend. Take Shaffer for example - Intended to make a game on 50k - Got 3.3 million from the kick starter. Blew all three point three fucking million on the first half on a point and click adventure game because he can't manage money for shit, then complains he has to finish the rest out of his own pocket and goes begging for MORE donations.

There's a lot of big companies that do fine, Obsidian Entertainment, Valve, Nintendo, From Software, Konami, 2k Interactive, Telltale now apparently, (I thought all three bioshocks were pretty fun, lots of cool concepts. Bioshock Infinite actually has a lot of real quantum physic concepts involved, and though the development was hampered by bad time decisions, there's never going to be a time we'll always get the perfect videogame. Two out of three tries seems like a pretty good score to me. I heard Brutal Legend was hilarious). Now we have indie companies pumping out some pretty great games yearly. I'd say there's more good stuff to play now than ever.

Maybe we have too high expectations for something that ultimately ends up being a hardcore group project? Not that I'm supporting EA or any money gouging company like it, I mean the quality of these games. If a masterpiece came up everyday, we'd soon run out of creativity. Nobody should trust Schaffer after what he did, I hope.

I admit that BioShock Intimate was a good game, but it wasn't what we were lead to believe it would be from what we were told - Something that lead to the closure of Irrational Games. All we honestly got, in gameplay, was a linear modern shooter. Nothing that will stand the test of time, even if the story was good.

And I fucking hope Schaffer isn't trusted anymore - He's an asshole for one, and... I can't believe I'm saying this, but Bobby Kotick was right about him.

And yes, indie devs DO make awesome games, my steam account is filled with them - However, when gaming journalists literally are the only people that help get indie devs noticed, and they try to force people into making everything a special safe zone hug box where masterpiece games like 1 Finger Death Punch, Dwarf Fortress, Kenshi, Hipster Werewolf, Papers Please, and other such great games might not be even reported on because 'games' like Gone Home and Depression Quest are getting 10/10 scores from friends of the makers because they 'tackle serous issues and are so mature and if you don't like them you are transphobic/misogynistic/homophobic/racist/albeist/whateverthefuckelsethereis,' those games never get noticed, and the makers never get the fame they deserve.

Dipper said 1 Finger Death Punch, Dwarf Fortress, Kenshi, Hipster Werewolf, Papers Please, and other such great games might not be even reported on because 'games' like Gone Home and Depression Quest are getting 10/10 scores from friends of the makers because they 'tackle

But all those games were noticed. I heard about them and I haven't played them. I don't see the problem? I think the only indie games not being reported on tend to be the ones which are absolute trite. Also Gone Home and To the Moon were pretty good, emotional experiences. Zork was considered a game too, once. At least they're experimenting with the format.

More trite than Depression Quest (which, as a sufferer of Depression, Ironically enough, ended up triggering me) or Gone Home, two 'games' that are little more than Choose your own adventure books?

Dipper said
More trite than Depression Quest (which, as a sufferer of Depression, Ironically enough, ended up triggering me) or Gone Home, two 'games' that are little more than Choose your own adventure books?

Oh sorry I edited without looking at this. Zork was a game too once. Gone Home is different in that it's literally a 3d environment and you can directly manipulate objects and explore in a manner not unlike the Adventure Game genre. Is The Secret of Monkey Island suddenly not a game? Any 3d or 2d environment with a beginning, middle, and end, and interactions can be considered a game. Just because you didn't like it doesn't make it any less of a game. You had a clear goal in mind: figure out what happened to Sam. You had to collect items to advance this goal.

I actually like "choose your own adventure" book games. They're fun and they do something that books/movies can't do. Give you control. I doubt that market will overtake the "SHOOT THINGS UNTIL ITS DEAD GENOCIDE GENRE".

Of course I LOVE reading. (I love everything. I'm kind of a Pollyanna I think. Didn't consider a reality where someone could dislike Gone Home.)

Dipper said
That is unfortunate, and honestly suits need to be put on a leash, but we still need people like Bobby Kotick, good buisnessmen. Too many suits, we get games approved by comitee, and 'we needs to reach out to the CoD base.Too little, you get dreamfactories like Shaffer or games like Bioblunder Infinite and Brutal Legend. Take Shaffer for example - Intended to make a game on 50k - Got 3.3 million from the kick starter. Blew all three point three fucking million on the first half on a point and click adventure game because he can't manage money for shit, then complains he has to finish the rest out of his own pocket and goes begging for MORE donations.

Quick tidbit on Broken Age; Schafer put out a full transcript on how the money thing went down. Its legit, its not poor management. There is a thing called living expenses, wages, rent and studio costs. Of course, you are so happy to attack the man, who I might add, made a good, albeit short game. So happy to just attack individuals without having any real insight in the problem. Every single time Dipper. And you attack people for having different taste then you, putting you in the spot of a huge hypocrite. A reveiewer might ACTUALLY LIKE Gone home. This does not make it a bad reviwer. IT means he values things differently. RPS niched themselves towards indie games that they LIKED and issues they cared about. This has now been deemed a crime by people like you, who attacked their stream of revenue. This is called supression of speach. This is what groups have done troughout the time. It's not a consumers revolution. You are attacking revenue streams you likely didn't even consume.

Gone home is a game, it has a win condition, it has the ability to move around, manipulate your surroundings and figure out what is going on. Voila, it's a game. It's a missmarketed game, It really is. And In my opinion, not a great game. But they tried to be different, and they had a story to tell. THat is also part of videogames. To deny it, is to really throw mud on your own cherished identity as a "Gamer". Becouse you are constantly berating games that are trying different things. Who are not to your own liking. Thus, you show to the outside, everything that people are saying is the problem. You are showing a narrowminded, selfassuring, conservative, protectionist stance. A stance that makes you look like a entitled little kid, who refuses to let others play unless they like the same toys as you. A person that can't allow people to like or think in a way that is different from yours. And Dipper, I don't think that was ever your intention of being percived. But you really need to start to slow down, and analyze your own posts and language. YOur own statements. Bravo had to slap you down once, and he is the strongest advocate for the cause you so vehemtly protect on this site currently.

As for the Mighty 9. I was one of the poeple who threw ALOT of money on it. I was in direct contact with some of the people during the stuff tha went down. I don't think I have been so pissed over a game as I was over how she, the community manager, acted. That does not give me Casus Belli to fling feces and spit bile and venom over the collective of people that makes games. It does not give me the right, to judge others lest I want to be judged in the same way. The thing is, there was never even a 10th of the outrage I see now, over IGNs much dirtier buisness. No, you are going after people with numbers, collective agression and admittedly, intelligent reasoning in terms of strategy. But what sparked it? Everysingle thing Gwazi has said per example, has directed towards feminism in some manner. And in other threads he made broad sweeping statements about women. And I think alot of the general power behind the movement initially came from places like /pol/ where they want to be as vile as possible against these womens speaking out against sexism. People who just want to fuel the fire.

The jokes posted in the thread earlier, speak of a great disgust over SWJs and a complete ridicule of them. That in itself, makes me question the legitimacy of statements regarding the whole thing. It becomes a case of personal bias and ugly vitrol. There is a personal conflict of vindication here, to claim otherwise is downright willfull ignorance. Leigh, was/is a idiot. I never understood why Gamesutra sticked with her, I reckon becouse sacking her would have led to a different backlash to be honest. However, several of those tweets showed a woman angry at daily harresment from other people. She was just ignorant enough to vent them is a public space, in the worst way possible. And yes. She should have been canned for it (or at the very least, be forced to make a public apology), albeit her "racism" was far less severe as it were, then the examples you gave.

But I have to go back to a point I made before you attacked my person, and Brovo shut you down for it. YOu once said that SWJ's were like a cult. We took it as a joke, a ironic one at that. Here is why. You treat Gaming as a "We". You have percieved slights against your group, your state of "We". You are calling people who didn't agree with you, or let you have freedom to spit vile over these "slights" for Traitors. You have bought in, so heaviliy into being a gamer, that you let it define who you are. Just like a SWJ has bought into her view. You are vichiusly, not always logically, defending this state of being like you would wilter away without it. Herein lies a huge problem. You are attacking people for being different then you. Not for being a different race, a different gender. No, you are attacking 'none-gamers' as you point it out. And you do it in a manner that makes you, look worse. Far, far worse.

You do realize, what is gonna happen next right. Movments like GG is gonna spawn Counter Movements. Ones that are gonna pressure webhosts I bet. You want a war of cencorship, personal bias and bringing gaming into the worst possible light, you are gonna get it. And those of us that are capable of looking at more then one side of the argument is gonna suffer from it.

This is the last I say on the subject. IT has taken far more effort and time then I wish to waste.

Dipper said
More trite than Depression Quest (which, as a sufferer of Depression, Ironically enough, ended up triggering me) or Gone Home, two 'games' that are little more than Choose your own adventure books?

Funny how I only know of these games because people bitch about them.

I didn't even know gone home was a thing until someone said it was the worst thing to happen to gaming ever for instance.

Hell, Anita is a choir preacher and Zoe is just some loon yet they're treated as such major threats to gamers. The big reason these people even get popular is due to sensationalism and the need to show a damsel in distress that's enlightened in some way being harassed by cyber heathens. Journalists who act more like bloggers have managed to troll a entire group of people into giving their articles views as a result. I would not be surprised if another manufactured controversy comes around in less than a year since there always will be in a group of a few million a few thousand people who get into a cyber mob and attack someone.

You know Hellis, I've argued with you quite a lot over this. Each time you make a point, I counter it, and each time I make a point, you ignore it, or give false information as fact. You've done it multiple times, and in all honestly, it is fucking bullshit, and cowardly. You can't refute a god damn thing I say when I back it up with pictures of what has been done, so you ignore it entirely, and focus on a post that I apologized for shortly after making it. You say me being happy that a disgusting woman brought shit down upon her company is filled with malice, and ignore all of the things she had done because it is inconvenient to admit that maybe, just maybe, Gamasutra had it coming. You made multiple ad hominem attacks in your largest post, and it just shows how willfully ignorant you are of what is happening.

As for a counter movement - This -is- the counter movement, a backlash against bullshit people like Leigh Alexander, Stephen Totilo and others like them.

But keep regurgitating the same disproven line that GamerGate is about malice and intolerance by gamers, something that Brovo, Magic, and I routinely showed you was not the case.

Maybe it'll come true if you keep telling yourself it enough.

You never actually refuted a point I made in any great extent. You showed people acting bady, something I never once in this thread defended or agreed with. And I agree on both anita, Leigh and others. You never once managed to properly refute why this would be bad for the buisness as a whole. Where are these fallacies in the shape of adhominens you speak of?

When I wrote, in a quite sensible manner about how your stance is likely to be percieved? No. That isn't a ad hominen, I wrote, in a civilized, calm manner why many would see irony in why you calling the SWJ coult when you show the exact same 'symptoms' for your own cause. I said malice, becouse you were cheering for the downfall of several sites, ruining lively hood of several people becouse they featured articles you do not approve of. That is malice to me.

. Again, you attack me, for being cowardly this time. When I, despite having to argue for the most part of this thread against three different people for my point in the matter, agreeing on several points with your cause. But you handily ignore that every time, becouse i do not agree with you 100 percent. Every. time. You more then once, used language that is as unproffesional and wile as the woman you attacked. One I agreed with should be canned. Again. I AGREED WITH YOU ON THAT. The fact that I urge to look trough your posts more, and try to see more then one angle is not adhominen. Me pointing out what kind of behavior you have continuesly shown trough the thread and how it reflects poorly on the point might be percieved as a Ad hominem, but it is not a fallacy. A adhominen on the basis of highlighting the lapse in morality, is a valid point. ITs not calling you names, or attacking you personally. I am 'attacking' your stance, your argument about a identity and your right to attack other over there idealogy when you refuse to accept any criticism towards your own.

But As I said. I am done.

Before you attack me with things liek Ad Hominen, you need to look up the word and what it means, and how it is used.