Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Maxwell
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EDIT: I wrote this before seeing the last four or so posts. I don't have time to reply to anything else for a while, so I'll leave you with this. Go ahead and resubmit. Everyone can make as many sheets as they want, so long as they make sure I know which one they want to use in the end.

That first sentence (of my last post) was not supposed to be there. Makes my post seem (even) more negative than intended, and conveys a level of conviction that I didn't actually feel. I apologize for that, especially considering what I'm about to unload. I hope I don't come off as too mean-spirited.

Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first. I don't care about the sword - I didn't even mention it in my post, and as far as I can tell, its effects on gameplay are negligible at most. Knowing arcane magic (healing or otherwise) makes you a wizard, in the same sense that being a pediatrician makes you a doctor. You may not get the respect that a brain surgeon has, but you had a hell of a way to go to get there anyway. You know magic, that is your main skill in life, not something you pick up as a hobby. Especially something as painstakingly precise as healing - unless you want to turn yourself inside out by accident. Seems like that was a simple misunderstanding, though, so I'll withdraw some of my accusations.

You also lose all natural evolution privileges once you've made a half-giant, half-tree person. The fact that *that* blasphemy against genetics can have a child with whatever race Erasmus was just throws any science talk out the window right away. But that's not the issue here. My personal aversion toward fantasy halfbreeds notwithstanding, in-universe justifications are just window dressing. What's important is the player's motivation for wanting to play whatever character they've made - and how well they convince me they're going to enrich the game rather than take away from. I do see the one you put in your post down there at the bottom, and I'll address that in a moment. I just want to emphasize that that's what matters.

Your sheet is too long for me to go over it with a fine-toothed comb looking for every place where I think communication failed, but ultimately, what you convey is much more important than what exactly you write. I didn't take away much about your character from reading it - especially not about who she became who she is. She seems to live by natural talent and sheer luck, and the hardships she's faced amount to a childhood tragedy and one hungry ocean voyage, after which she immediately married into royalty and lived in the lap of luxury ever since. Traumatizing, certainly, but there's no journey, no progression, no development, just "everyone died and she was sad, now she's not sad anymore." Every part where she might have connected with society and the people around her are glossed over, where the parts you could have glossed over "her mother was kidnapped during a raid and taken as a concubine by the king, done" take up several paragraphs, despite happening in the distant past, far away and to characters that have nothing to do with anyone else's character and will never affect the game in any meaningful way.

What was her marriage like? How did she snap out of her depression? Was she a burden to her husband until he nearly abandoned her? Did having children change her? What did she think about living in a country permanently waging war at every border? Did she have to struggle to find acceptance? How was her unique brand of magic received? There are thousands of things that could affect who she is, but her background seems to mostly focus on the physical flow of events, and not at all on how any of this impacted her. Even the stuff that could be emotionally impactful is relegated to a couple of sentences - her child is murdered, but all that leads to is a description of how the attackers lost some limbs. Even the violence strikes me as uninspired. Also, you promised flashbacks - as in, role playing segments no one can interact with or even perceive. I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with that, and to me that only increases the feeling that your character is stuck in a past that has nothing to do with the present.

You say your character has cultural traits from her father's country, but you only list things that are not going to be noticeable in the actual game. You say you wrote parts of it when you were exhausted, well, to that I can only shrug. I still only have what you gave me to judge you by. Appendices and explanations after the fact are gonna be very impractical once the game starts, as well, so your ability to communicate everything you need to in a single post is actually important.

And then, there's a whole 'nother misunderstanding I have to address. This one's not nearly as serious or big, though. Everyone is stronger, tougher, faster etc than a baseline human, unless you choose not to be (and of course, I expect wizards to limit themselves relative to warriors), and the way you wrote it, I interpreted it as you not realizing that, but wanting to have it all anyway, which is an attitude I'm wary of to the point of paranoia. Getting run through with a sword and just keeling over dead is actually below my expectations. Did you perhaps mean to say that that's all she has to make her more physically capable than the average person?

Your last paragraph, wherein you explain your motivation, is the reason I still have faith in you. That motivation is what I care about the most. However, even there I have some issues. Mainly, that I don't feel the impact of any of those things in your sheet, and despite your explanation, I have no idea what you want.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Raptorman
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Maxwell said
Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first. I don't care about the sword - I didn't even mention it in my post, and as far as I can tell, its effects on gameplay are negligible at most. Knowing arcane magic (healing or otherwise) makes you a wizard, in the same sense that being a pediatrician makes you a doctor. You may not get the respect that a brain surgeon has, but you had a hell of a way to go to get there anyway. You know magic, that is your main skill in life, not something you pick up as a hobby. Especially something as painstakingly precise as healing - unless you want to turn yourself inside out by accident. Seems like that was a simple misunderstanding, though, so I'll withdraw some of my accusations.


I misread your post then in regards to the sword. I thought part where you talked about not playing it by feel for making enchanted items meant that I the player shouldn't have made the sword. I see now that was a misread. Also I understand and appreciate that the magic issue has been resolved.

Maxwell said You also lose all natural evolution privileges once you've made a half-giant, half-tree person. The fact that *that* blasphemy against genetics can have a child with whatever race Erasmus was just throws any science talk out the window right away. But that's not the issue here. My personal aversion toward fantasy halfbreeds notwithstanding, in-universe justifications are just window dressing. What's important is the player's motivation for wanting to play whatever character they've made - and how well they convince me they're going to enrich the game rather than take away from. I do see the one you put in your post down there at the bottom, and I'll address that in a moment. I just want to emphasize that that's what matters.


All I can say here is that I am not sure where you got 'tree person' from and that it made me chuckle a bit to see that. Also that I appreciate your not holding the race hybrid against me and that I do still plan to use it.

Maxwell said
Your sheet is too long for me to go over it with a fine-toothed comb looking for every place where I think communication failed, but ultimately, what you convey is much more important than what exactly you write. I didn't take away much about your character from reading it - especially not about who she became who she is. She seems to live by natural talent and sheer luck, and the hardships she's faced amount to a childhood tragedy and one hungry ocean voyage, after which she immediately married into royalty and lived in the lap of luxury ever since. Traumatizing, certainly, but there's no journey, no progression, no development, just "everyone died and she was sad, now she's not sad anymore." Every part where she might have connected with society and the people around her are glossed over, where the parts you could have glossed over "her mother was kidnapped during a raid and taken as a concubine by the king, done" take up several paragraphs, despite happening in the distant past, far away and to characters that have nothing to do with anyone else's character and will never affect the game in any meaningful way.

What was her marriage like? How did she snap out of her depression? Was she a burden to her husband until he nearly abandoned her? Did having children change her? What did she think about living in a country permanently waging war at every border? Did she have to struggle to find acceptance? How was her unique brand of magic received? There are thousands of things that could affect who she is, but her background seems to mostly focus on the physical flow of events, and not at all on how any of this impacted her. Even the stuff that could be emotionally impactful is relegated to a couple of sentences - her child is murdered, but all that leads to is a description of how the attackers lost some limbs. Even the violence strikes me as uninspired. Also, you promised flashbacks - as in, role playing segments no one can interact with or even perceive. I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with that, and to me that only increases the feeling that your character is stuck in a past that has nothing to do with the present.


Two things here, the flashbacks were intended to be included within posts of mine to help people get more into the character that I have created, not to take up entire posts and avoid interaction. My plan was to use them to enrich the experience. As for the rest. I am currently reworking much of her back story and expanding on elements that relate to her emotions and development ect which should help meet your desires.

Maxwell said
And then, there's a whole 'nother misunderstanding I have to address. This one's not nearly as serious or big, though. Everyone is stronger, tougher, faster etc than a baseline human, unless you choose not to be (and of course, I expect wizards to limit themselves relative to warriors), and the way you wrote it, I interpreted it as you not realizing that, but wanting to have it all anyway, which is an attitude I'm wary of to the point of paranoia. Getting run through with a sword and just keeling over dead is actually below my expectations. Did you perhaps mean to say that that's all she has to make her more physically capable than the average person?


This was simply a misunderstanding. I meant to say exactly that and that if on the off chance you thought she was too strong in light of her magic I would be willing to change it.

Maxwell said Your last paragraph, wherein you explain your motivation, is the reason I still have faith in you. That motivation is what I care about the most. However, even there I have some issues. Mainly, that I don't feel the impact of any of those things in your sheet, and despite your explanation, I have no idea what you want.


I thank you for still having faith in me. I'll try to improve the sheet. I'm not sure what you mean with you "I'm not sure what you want" part though.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Raptorman
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And now I present the reworked and I think much improved sheet for Lin'Lise. :) I hope you enjoy this one.

Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Bainshie
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Any feedback on my character at all?
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Lexicon
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@ Hank: I agree. While she might not be overly fond of people who can make fire rain from the sky, Nykerius seems like a nice enough fellow. Besides, better to have the powerful Stormsinger on Altranor's side than on anybody else's. Heck, maybe Riven comes to Nykerius whenever she wants to attempt brewing a magical potion of some kind. Whether or not they turn out alright is a different matter, of course.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Maxwell
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Now that I have fifteen minutes of peace and quiet, I'm gonna reply to at least one post, I hope.

Bainshie: You've explained how your character is awesome at what he does, but you need to expand a lot on who he is before I'd consider him interesting. Granted, this may be completely subjective, but I'm still the guy you have to win over. Additionally, if this were a school assignment, I'd dock you points for formatting and not signing your name.

Oh, and while being an exceptional commander is acceptable, and winning over a force ten times the size of your own can be acceptable under some circumstances, I want to mention that this is not something you can expect to do consistently, and certainly not under all circumstances. Having the ability to improve the performance of NPCs is otherwise pretty handy in a PvE sort of way.

MaxStokes: I'm down to five minutes now, so I'll make this super-quick. Your character seems to have no relationship with the king, and from your backstory, seems to barely be aware of what's going on around him. Making obedient bodyguard-type characters that still participate in the story can be difficult, and that means it's gonna be difficult to convince me it's gonna work out. Your backstory also includes a long story about how he ended up in the arena, but none of that seems to have anything to do with who he is - this doesn't really detract from the background as such, but it doesn't add much either.

Shit, now I'm late.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Raptorman
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When you get the chance, I know you are busy I would like to know what you thought of the redone character sheet. I have done a very large amount of work revamping the personality and bio to be something that I honestly feel is far more fitting and provides a great deal more realism and character development. :) There is no rush of course.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Bridgeburner
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Okay, so I have seen that somebody else made a character sheet being a "High General", so I'm going to change my character's role as a "Captain of the Royal Bodyguard."

Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by MaxStokes
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Maxwell:Yeah for some reason I thought that if the characters interest's coincided with the rest of the group, that is the killing of the invading king, it wouldn't matter much that the char was in a close relationship with the king. I should have read opening better.

As far as the back story goes, i got too into writing it early on then got lazy toward the end so your assessment of it makes perfect sense.

I think from what you said it might be the best idea just to completely scrap the character. Idk I'm trying to think of something interesting. It might be cool to do an actor or a scholar or something. The problem is making the motivation fit. It seems hard to justify a character going full vengeance over the king. Either they had to have really liked the king (if so why weren't they there when he died?), or they are kinda of self-destructive and petty.

I mean even assuming they knew the king but had some other family member/loved one killed in the war/siege (like the court wizard) it only really makes sense for them to seek revenge if they lost virtually all of their family. Otherwise collecting them and trying to get out of dodge or make a new life seemes like a more reasonable plan.

Idk, I'll have to think on it more.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Nemaisare
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If you don't want the motivation to be for the king because they liked the king, you could perhaps try giving them a weakness or something that someone else in the group could exploit to get your character working with them? Or maybe just set it up so that their history gives them a reason to dislike Bernard of Ghant or one of the other monarchs enough to use this chance to try offing them, and the group of angry courtiers(and others) might make a good meatshield or alliance? Maybe?
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Maxwell
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MaxStokes said It seems hard to justify a character going full vengeance over the king. Either they had to have really liked the king (if so why weren't they there when he died?), or they are kinda of self-destructive and petty.


See, now you just went and casually dismissed the motivations of all the characters in this thread, just because you don't agree with them. You're entitled to your opinion, but I submit that exploring different points of view is at the heart of role playing. I would certainly never stick my neck out for some dead guy, regardless of our relationship, but that doesn't mean I can't romanticize loyalty and honour beyond death, or generally want to play a character with strong moral convictions that I don't personally share.

If you don't, well, fair enough. This may not be the right game to not want that, though.

Everyone else: I'll give you feedback on your character sheets as soon as I have time to give them a proper read.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by MaxStokes
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Nemaisare That's kinda what I meant to be asking. Are those kind of "not the friend of the king, but interests coincide with the group." motivations and personal situations ok for a character to have.

Maxwell I think my tone was a little bad in what I was typing. I had just got of spending a while getting my ass beat in street fighter and it was the second time I had to type up the response due to some annoying error.

What I meant was I can think of only a few potential motivations for the characters.

Anybody who is self serving or got their position at court by climbing the ladder isn't going to be motivated to avenge the king. Unless I guess their whole family was killed. Even then only in specific cases.

Anybody who has a family or other people that need their skills isn't going to be motivated to avenge the king. Unless their whole family was killed.

There can be only so many "I was his best friend/guardian and he was all I had but somehow I wasn't present at his death." Before it starts to become strange.

I've thought of a character that is young man who's father was all he had and was killed. Him and his father being courtiers of some aspect. It seems like this idea will probably work, but the whole thing still bother's me a little.

Revenge solely as a motivator is a strange thing for a group of people in my opinion. Especially on this scale. It's generally considered to be destructive, to the point that those who want revenge generally know that it is destructive but are emotional enough to not care about their own well-being. It just seems to limit the party variety to people pursuing a goal with no real rewards beyond emotional gratification, in a quest that it seems fair to classify as a suicide mission. Which makes it a little difficult to create a character distinct from the others while still maintaining that specific motivation. Throw in the additional qualifier that they need to have known the king personally and you end up with a potentially even less diverse group.

Mostly that paragraph was me trying to work out and put into words why I think I was having trouble coming up with a character who's motivations made sense. It's probably just me making excuses so don't pay it too much mind.

Anyways I didn't mean to dismiss the motivations of people's characters, from what I have seen most people's character's motivations make sense and fit well with their personality and back story. The comment I made about self-destructive and petty were more about potential characters I was thinking of more than anything else.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Maxwell
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It feels good to be able to criticize people for lacking depth of character. It's been a long time since I had so many good choices for a game.

Bridgeburner: That appearance is way too short. He could look like anyone. Furthermore, he could use more of a personality - I might have failed to read between the lines, but all I'm getting is "proud warrior culture guy", which is a fine archetype, but it can't be all there is to him.

Lastly, why would you rip off a weapon from A Song of Ice and Fire (and not even rename it) instead of just using a khopesh?

Raptorman: Considerably better. I still think the towering goddess who can force people to like her smacks of wish fulfillment, and she's still going to stick out like a sore thumb. For the former, I guess we might see, and for the latter, that doesn't actually have any impact on the selection process, only on your in-game odds.

MaxStokes: Giving you a point by point rebuttal would take a lot of time and energy and probably not lead anywhere. You make a lot of assumptions based only on your own convictions, and that tells me I'm not going to change your mind. If you reject the premise of the game, you probably aren't going to enjoy it anyway.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by MaxStokes
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Maxwell: I don't reject the premise of the game, if I did I wouldn't be here. I was merely trying to understand my own reasoning behind having a hard time thinking of character motivations that make sense.

You don't need to feel like making rebuttal. I wasn't trying to make an argument.

Lastly, can you point me to a golden standard that I can take notes from while I work on my new CS?
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Bridgeburner
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Maxwell said
See, now you just went and casually dismissed the motivations of all the characters in this thread, just because you don't agree with them. You're entitled to your opinion, but I submit that exploring different points of view is at the heart of role playing. I would certainly never stick my neck out for some dead guy, regardless of our relationship, but that doesn't mean I can't romanticize loyalty and honour beyond death, or generally want to play a character with strong moral convictions that I don't personally share.If you don't, well, fair enough. This may not be the right game to not want that, though. I'll give you feedback on your character sheets as soon as I have time to give them a proper read.


There was a dark scythe,khopesh like blade called Dawnbreaker in A Song of Fire and Ice?

The sword that Agaran has is a khopesh, just a relic from his culture/people. No magical properties other then being made very durable.

I will edit in more to the personality and appearance, just wasn't able to take too much time to edit him and was waiting for your approval of the archetype.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Maxwell
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I think you quoted the wrong part of my post there, but what I'm saying is that the 'arakh', the favoured weapon of the Dothraki, is from A Song of Ice and Fire. The khopesh works more like an axe than a scythe, by the way, and while that's not super-important in a fantasy game, I'm enough of a nerd that I would grind my teeth down to nubs if it came up often enough.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Bridgeburner
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Haha, fair game, I'll change it up as soon as I can.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Maxwell
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I just had three hours' worth of writing deleted, so I'm gonna go kill myself now, and answer any further questions posthumously tomorrow.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Rayn Night
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You poor son of a gun
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Lexicon
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@ Maxwell: Rough! I hate it when that happens. Did your computer crash on you?
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