Ghirardelli said
A lot of people have little to no knowledge of Military stuff, so when other players start flaunting how much they know about weapons and armor specs in OCC, they get intimidated and decide not to join the RP.

With you on that one. My guess is it was a copy and paste from wikipedia.

Lo Pellegrino said
I'd be interested in seeing a roleplay that portrays life interrupted by war. In America if you don't watch the news, you can effectively live on without any idea we are fighting overseas, it could it could be a total surprise. Our idea of combat here is voluntary, glorified, and inflated into something we consider too surreal to imagine, yet also too disturbing to explore. This isn't so for my family from gang heavy areas in Puerto Rico and Cuba, or my friends from the Ukraine or Palestine. War grips you, appears quick and devastates fast. You are consumed by it and have no choice but to live in reaction of the conflict. That's a roleplay I'd like to see.

I personally always thought it would be interesting to do a RP centred around the Arab/Israeli conflict. I fear it would be too sensitive a subject for some people though. However, it would actually make pretty decent RP material though since it's filled with the daily struggles and drama of people trying to live in a warzone, the action sequences that come from the various battles, and most of all it's something that's happening now that many people may not give a second thought about due to the fact they live away from it.

Frankly, the only reason I don't broach modern military RP's as a genre isn't because they're niche. The Last Bastion is a post apocalypse sci-fi hybrid, that's pretty niche, and yet it's successful anyway.

No, the reason I don't tackle modern military RP's is because people have absolutely no idea what they're doing. Please let me explain before someone calls me an elitist bastard. (Though I totally am.)

Military RP's in my opinion have a barrier to entry if you want to play them even somewhat realistically: An understanding of military strategy and tactics, from the individual level to the platoon level. For example: Tanks are the front line, infantry play the support role, proper reconnaissance and air superiority wins nearly everything, and ninety percent of your time is spent being on edge of being shot at in civilian areas rather than shooting at actual targets as you pass through streets and alleys and stumble on jittery civilians as scared as you. Hesitate and you die. Fire indiscriminately and you're a war criminal.

Simply put, military RP's if played correctly should be far more about unit tactics and psychological warfare, not about the actual combat, which would start and end as a series of rapid skirmishes. (As no modern military commander in their right mind throws all of their resources into one battle. Putting all your eggs in one basket is the sign of a man who sincerely thinks they can win a war in one battle.)

Now this is a little difficult, but not impossible, to write out as a GM. The issue is that unlike with other RP's I run, it would require the players to understand basic military strategy. At least some rudimentary knowledge of the works of Sun Tzu, even, would be decent because it at least tells you the basic train of thought you should have. If we're talking strictly grunts fighting other grunts, then at least understand unit tactics and just how vulnerable you really are. (Flanking, cover, LoS, target identification, recon, calling for and responding to coms, realizing that one shot is all it takes to kill you, etc.)

Fact of the matter is?

The vast majority of people on this site do not meet these qualifications. If I were to make a military RP, I would have to dumb it down so hard that the point of it would be lost. It would turn into generic action RP with military flavouring, and that's just selling out. It would satisfy nobody looking for a true military RP.

You elitist bastard.

Or paperwork.

Fobbits need representation.

Right on, Evan. 'CUZ they fobbits and they do what they gotta do

Warrior in the Shadows said
Right on, Evan. 'CUZ they fobbits and

Hands in your pockets are literally the worst thing to happen to America.

I've been munching popcorn over this. Cheers for the thoughts- I am taking a lot on board, but I want to add to this.

Military RPs can't all be too serious/realistic. and while you'd say a full on military RP is all about strategy and realism, that's one corner. What I'm saying is, the niche that was military RPs that I ran, and many others, was completely unlike that full-on realism scenarios. I expect people to walk in with a fairly good knowledge, not be encyclopedia. It's fucking sad, when I see people who are willing, but a little confused at times, get yelled and shouted at. Sure, there are idiots. But there are noobs, people you can educate, and the thing is, I have developed well-written narratives, inside the anarchy. Lima stands as a testament to that- and while it's shaky now, it has run well for a couple of years, being an RP that is authentic and at least original, yet takes some ideas and puts it into an original concept with some action (and seriously, the dull bits of the RP were not popular, no matter what you say I know these RPers well enough to know they're saying that with authority. Believe me, I've tried contemporary, all out military RPs with full realism engaged (engagements at a range of 200m-400m rather than 50-200). People were unwilling to create units, I worked myself for nothing, and suddenly, realized it wasn't worthwhile. I enjoy action, I don't like Rambo. I like it when a tight-knit team go into urban combat, and take on the OpFor, in a head on engagement. Their stories, as individuals, is kept down- the fighting takes precedence, it's the task at hand that they're ordered into. I don't like sitting and slouching around, and when I say this, I mean in a format that doesn't build any tension- but rather, just really leaves things blank. I let people be creative, and RP along- but people don't usually take the response, as an earlier comment earlier said, soldiers moan about doing fuck all, and RPing fuck all is precisely what my life is like- and I speak for many of us if I say that it isn't what I want my RP to be a mainstay of (so hence, you can't achieve full realism, you can get partly there in tactics and other factors that I've got a fairly confident understanding of). Yet it comes to one fatal flaw, that I've realized.

A lot of my GMing is based on control. I don't act as a reactive GM, as a GM who sets out a world and then a few rules, then lets it run. A military RP needs constant co-ordination, and for the GM, it is stressful. You have to juggle a plot, equipment, and all sorts, and it's shitty really. I do it because i love it though, and it's why I ask for more to get involved, at any level they like. to do these types of RP. You can't be reactive as it means people hijack the plot- and a plot is central to a military RP because...well, without structure, things don't make sense (ie. a Private walks out onto patrol autonomously rather than the whole squad going, a decision usually made by the CO, and usually the GM (who in turn has to usually, but not always take this role as it prevents serious God-Modding abuse). It's why it's hard perhaps- and again, Brovo, a point you've made.

For the sake of the narrative, specific battles are usually easier to do, rather than a multitude of them, I should mention. It becomes incoherent if you try to have the more constant structure that exists in the timeframe of conflict- and tends to be easier on everyone, believe me. Not just the GM, because he can worry about one scenario to the next rather than a continuous structure that can become bogged down, but RPers, so that they can at least make sense of the parts, bit by bit. In regards to realism, before anybody asks- I do understand the spectrum, of angling, CQC tactics, one bullet's potential in penetration and wounding, as well as other factors. There are real factors that stay in any Mil RP that I have, though in terms of movement and distance to target, for creative purposes of hemming in the fight better, this works out nicer (could rant on this topic).

Brovo said
For example: Tanks are the front line, infantry play the support role, proper reconnaissance and air superiority wins nearly everything, and ninety percent of your time is spent being on edge of being shot at in civilian areas rather than shooting at actual targets as you pass through streets and alleys and stumble on jittery civilians as scared as you.

Tanks don't do Asymmetrical Warfare. Look at Afghanistan. Good reason why tanks don't roll the "plains" of the Hindu Kush these days. That was Desert Storm, and Iraq. Nowadays, warfare is different. IEDs, guerrilla warfare, and the fact that we're not able to counteract this effectively (they just roll back into towns we leave to the ANA) means that war is no longer simply send a tank, sent a B2 Spirit to level the shit out of an area. It doesn't take a military genius to figure it out that shit doesn't work in a place like that, and it's not a universal formula- again, maybe sometimes it works, other times, Afghanistan and Vietnam in particular, it does not. Insurgents work differently, and this is in itself, what makes unpredictability and sometimes the sheer throwing of a spanner into the works of a certain scenario, makes for some brilliant RPing where characters are forced to respond in a way that perhaps can't really be seen with many RPs of type. Maybe in other scenarios, but the Infantry do what tanks, helicopters, artillery, jets and IFVs can't. They clear buildings, block by block, house by house. Otherwise, the other half of Iraq we didn't bomb would be leveled- and supports aren't always there. They still form a bread and butter- and while unprotected compared to other assets, they can go places that we still haven't gotten any of the listed supports to go into yet, for good reasons.

Brovo said
Fact of the matter is?The vast majority of people on this site do not meet these qualifications. If I were to make a military RP, I would have to dumb it down so hard that the point of it would be lost. It would turn into generic action RP with military flavouring, and that's just selling out. It would satisfy nobody looking for a true military RP.

I can't agree, I mean, it's a narrow view to take. I can't say that it is selling out to appeal to a broader audience- one that perhaps can become more involved and learn, rather than just act as complete tards- and this you don't even have to do much of, simply just cutting the unneeded fat that really burdens it back. There are noobs, but not morons, and those latter you can filter out anyway. Sure, maybe there are less that know about military matters, but with research, or even just a quick session of Google, a half-acceptable CS can be made quite quick. Take a look at what I do for yourself (Scimitar, is by no means you regular military RP, that is perhaps very much in a different style that I would call unique to itself)- Lima might not always be the most stringent and realism-adhering RP in the world. Reality? I don't care, because I know that it's creatively, what works. It isn't clunky, it isn't a gun-wank for gunwankers. It's a Special Forces RP that mixes realism with some creative licence (though even this is debatable), and I'll stand by it, because it's outlasted so many flashes in the pan that this genre has. Only reason it's lost pace recently is due to the members of the RP being busy, but apart from that, it's gone good guns. I've seen RPs way, way shittier than it, appeal to some who want to get involved with military RPs. Either desperation or just mere curiosity to become involved creatively brings that about- and I have many a time wanted to try it on for size, though I enjoy sticking to what I stringently do. And I don't sacrifice quality in these RPs either. I'd sadly agree, that less and less people care or meet any basic requirements. But it can't be this dead, surely. It's the creators that have vanished, and there's a market for the RP, in one form or another. In a very realistic tone or a more reclined one. It isn't bitching about characters and settings, or what works or what doesn't. I don't give a fuck really, it's what people want to make of it from their perspective on conflict, and that they'll make- and this worked for ages, till the last few months, where I look at the Guild and find there isn't even a single military RP in a vein of a certain kind (and I genuinely mean, vaguely similar- find a contemporary military RP that isn't based around larger unit structures now), it isn't doable.

Warrior in the Shadows said
You elitist bastard.

I somehow agree. You can't state that RPers require a knowledge of Sun Tzu, and significant portions of military tactics. You need a frame of mind, but not that far. And it can be taught, quickly. A word in the OOC, just specifying how things work, bam. And that nets you one player that before you didn't have. Being picky in RPs about people isn't an option- you take what you get, and if you start telling people they're assholes, I know what I'd do.

Jannah said
I personally always thought it would be interesting to do a RP centred around the Arab/Israeli conflict. I fear it would be too sensitive a subject for some people though. However, it would actually make pretty decent RP material though since it's filled with the daily struggles and drama of people trying to live in a warzone, the action sequences that come from the various battles, and most of all it's something that's happening now that many people may not give a second thought about due to the fact they live away from it.

The problem is, political sensitivity. Call the same with Afghanistan, or Iraq (I stray from the latter for good reason). Then there's politics itself, the stuff in the News and everyday we hear from Parliaments and Senates. You can't go there with it, unless you do it in such a way that is broadly appealing and is satisfying, rather than a crunching shitfest that just makes the RP more complicated than it needs be. Imagine a RP set in Palestine, in the events of earlier this year. I RP for escapism, I stay semi-detached to current affairs when it comes to RP because fuck me, I don't want to hear it any more than I already do (though this said, I'll make exceptions, and it has to work in my opinion in order to make it viable, so long as it doesn't incite a massive political clusterfuck). Anyway, if I wanted to do something set with Civilians in conflict, I couldn't do modern- it doesn't suit I feel, not like say, a group of Marines on the ground would. This would have to be WW1, WW2, or something along those lines. Hence why my reaccurance to the Warsaw Uprising. I'm more and more surprised it hasn't been done yet, now I see what people want from an RP. That meets every single one of your criteria- but for now, I do not feel ready to take on the mantle of an RP like that. It needs to be done industrially well.

There is some consensus, I will say. We all have a general view, and there is a lot of people. We all at least agree that it's somewhat existent, so I'll ask, what now of it. It's not a rallying call- this has been a debate after all, over what it means to make an RP of this type. And while perhaps flashes in the pan are what make the genre come back like desert flowers after rain, it's a way of at least getting what this field will need.

TheEvanCat said
Hands in your pockets are literally the worst thing to happen to America.

Hold the fuck up, where's your PT belt?

All this non-consensus about theater and doctrine and all of that has me thinking: You can cut the complexities if you just drop the idea of doing a nonfiction RP. Even if you don't want an RP where you need to a Wikipedia professor to talk about fire arms and armor classifications you still would need to be considerably knowledgeable about the operation at hand. More than just simply having a vague idea, or you yourself won't work it as well as it should. It'd be the history/lore equivalent of trying to hold a pistol like a rifle.



This back and forth with tl;dr posts really has me believe more that what's needed more is less a historical exploration of the Boer Wars (which I'm sure not many people know about) or Operation Desert Storm which most anyone here wouldn't even be old enough to remember seeing on the news, let alone the presidency of Bush Senior.

These are all fantastic and well and good but to approach them with any sort of scope or context without having to grapple with the technical specifications of the M16 just keeps it too complicated. And then you got the politics associated with it too. Someone's bound to get mad if you pick and interpret the wrong war the wrong way. But if you want to do away with realism and have something approachable I'm going to say: go fiction.

And on that note I'm going to keep up saying it: consider Precipice as what it is beyond a NRP. We got a growing potential for conflict with immense possibility for it being explored at someone's home or on the front. The only serious commitment to have a broad knowing of the world is simply coordination with one or all; long enough to know what's what (which shouldn't be hard, all complexities in it aside) and keeping to date and to speed with the rest of us so you don't fall behind; we do have a constant progression of time (and the more people active the longer I can stretch it if we want to be more detailed).

There's basis in PoW in reality. In particular, my nation harnesses an ethnic conflict I know all too well about. There are genocides involved. But it's good to explore that in a fiction environment like Precipice. It allows for more freedom, more expression. Political sensitivity is there but it's explored in an alternate way without having someone literally destroy the actual house you live in in a real world.

And the distance between the RP and its point of deviation (1914) is about long enough new contexts can be written in over top of what'd be the more widely known historical contexts, even if we've already written in some lore that'd be known to a single character (but we got a comprehensive brief on each nation's contributions that we decided to keep from PoW past).

Plus I got to once destroy a handful of tanks with a group of African tribesmen armed with spears.

It's like that one time in Civilization.