Calling @Dinh AaronMk, @Pepperm1nts, @Chapatrap, @Byrd Man, @gorgenmast, @Letter Bee, @Nerevarine, @AYoungWarthog, @The Grey Warden, @Nilesapa, @gowia, and @Thang. Some of you received an unsolicited PM about this topic a month or two back, whereas others showed interest in the subject matter in a couple of interest checks recently, so I figured in either case you might be interested in seeing where this proposal.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So this is the pitch: What if the Roman Empire survived mostly intact, allowing for the entire Empire to experience the effect of the Islamic invasions in the middle east? This would be an empire bloodied by all the near-collapses it had experienced, and no doubt still bloodied by war with Persia, but it would be a different experience all the same.

So I've been reading up on late antiquity quite a bit recently, and I've taken an interest in writing some stuff based on the time period. I've also wanted to experiment with the Nation genre and blur it into advanced character RPing a little more by adopting a smaller, more local-scale story. For reference, here is the base-map.



The first thing you will probably notice is that I am an uninspired map maker. The second thing you will notice is that the region is not divided the way it historically should be for an NRP. That is because i've chosen to scale down to local governments. In some cases, like in Africa, the traditional regional nation-states are still up for grabs in their full power. The three central empires however (Rome, Persia, Islamic Arabia) are divided into their respective types of regional government. The Roman Emperor will be a hands-off NPC who I will avoid using as much as possible, and this will be explained by wars in the west that keep him occupied. The Shahanshah of Persia will be handled much the same way, though I think I will most likely explain his absence by incapability, either through extreme youth or through extreme old age. The exception will be the Caliph, who will be RPed by Dinh AaronMk. That does not mean that Aaron will have absolute control of the Arabs, as others will be allowed to control smaller Arab tribes and clans either in support of Aaron's Caliph or in spite of him.

To further explain, here is a map clarifying borders.



Africa, the Caucasus, and the Eastern Steppe nations will be one shade per country, whereas the shades in the three major empires represent their subdivisions. In the case of Rome, you will be RPing local appointed officials that belong to important families throughout the Empire. In Persia, you will RP the hereditary noble families and the lands they possess. In the case of the Arabs, as I said above, you will control a tribe or clan.

A third map for further explanation.




Rather, if you wish to be a governor or major regional political power you will be limited to those sections. If you want to play an individual, a lesser government official or local tribe, or a foreign army from somewhere else in the western world fighting as mercenaries in the east, you will be allowed to do so. If you want to be a Visigoth, or a Briton, or a Khazar, you can so long as your story remains in the middle east and you respect your limits as a stranger in a strange land.

Also, if this RP succeeds, i'd be fine with expanding the map and the storyline to cover a larger area. Hell, if we reach Precipice of War level success, we could include the entire world.

This looks good m8

Allahu Ackbar!

I am interested. I have no fucking idea of what I could possibly do, but I am interested.

This sounds amazing. This has always been one of my absolute favorite periods of history (actually I'm taking a class on the artistic styles of the Mediterranean in Late Antiquity to the Islamic Conquests this coming semester, pretty hype), and I'm glad to see that it's being covered in an NRP.

I have no clue where to even begin in terms of making an NS or characters but I love the concept.

Actually, on second thought, playing a character in pre-Islamic Persia would be amazing, as would a Cuman or some of the steppe peoples. Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, Tengriism, oh my! Persia will always be my favorite forever and always.

I am interested in this.

Oh, my, I'm ready to cast aside my Byzantine Republic Idea for this.

Im in, sent village my idea already, just ironing out the kinks before everything starts up

Ugh, I'm torn between the Levant and Egypt!

I'm still planning on taking the Diocese Oriens if that means anything. I am hoping that, by placing me in the Levant and Aaron with the Caliphate, we'll start the action right off the bat and have something to drive the RP early on.

Anyway, I decided to make a reference map of the rest of the world.



The maps in the OP are still the entirety of the area where I want everyone to be, but this map can at least be used as a reference, especially for mercenaries or characters who spent most of their lives elsewhere.

Egypt, then; seems like a newbie's paradise.

I'm ready to basque in glory.

Definitely going Sassanid noble family

Definitely going Sassanid noble family

Ooh good, I was afraid we wouldn't get one.

I'm working on the OP bit by bit. Got a cold though, so work is slow.

Whoo, Norse Mercenary Army about to raise some hell in the Mid-East

Alternate History Varangian Guard would be dope.

So I'm wondering with the Empire still the biggest swinging dick on the block, what's up with the Catholic Church? I'm assuming they wouldn't have the same truck with the rest of the world with Rome as top dog. Also, what about the schism is that yet to happen?

So I'm wondering with the Empire still the biggest swinging dick on the block, what's up with the Catholic Church? I'm assuming they wouldn't have the same truck with the rest of the world with Rome as top dog. Also, what about the schism is that yet to happen?

I think the idea might be that the status of Christianity is sort of like pre-schism Christianity. Or in that: there's a bunch of different ideas floating around but none have really made any solid attempts at becoming something like the Patriarch or the Pope. There'd be Coptic communities living across the Empire as much as there'd be Miaphysiate, Neostorian, Arian, and so on. If anything as well, I'd imagine that across the Empire many or all the Bishops are all equal and none would really rain supreme as the top-most Metropolitan which was a decisive ideology difference between the Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches (besides bread).

Alternate History Varangian Guard would be dope.

Yeah it would, maybe my band could lay their foundations later, in service to whoever pays them the most

The big schism, the division between the Catholic west and Orthodox east, would not happen. That evolves out of head-butting politics between the Papal sphere of influence and the Imperial sphere, but in this world the two spheres would be more or less one and the same. You would probably get uppity Popes from time to time trying to insist their word comes before the other patriarchs, but with Imperial power present in the west it is unlikely any Germanic kingdoms would accept Papal primacy since it would do them no good. Remember, accepting Papal primacy was how Charlemagne got made an Emperor.

That means that the worlds "Catholic" and "Orthodox" will be interchangeable words for the Chalcedonian dogma.

However, as Aaron said, there was a Monophysite split between Alexandria and the Orthodoxy that would have happened regardless, and they became very popular on the eastern fringes. You'd see it entrenched in Egypt and East-Africa, popular in Armenia, and influential in Syria. Also in Syria, particularly deeper in Christian parts of the otherwise Zoroastrian Persian Empire, you would have the Nestorians. Historically many of the Germans were Arian as well, though whether or not Arianism would have lasted in this situation is hard to tell. Miaphysitism happens later, and represents the moderation of the Monophysites.

Now, the meaning of these terms seems really petty to me and probably most modern people, but it was important to people in this time period. I will try to explain them though.

The Orthodox position is that Jesus was both divine and human at the same time, and that this divinity and humanity were distinct but acting in tandem.

The Monophysites held that Jesus was divine and that was that. One nature, not two.

The Miaphysites who later evolve from the Monophysites and represented by the modern Coptic churches held that Jesus had one nature, but that this one nature was some sort of mix between divinity and humanity.

The Nestorians, who are the Syriac christians of the modern day, believed that Christ was bother divine and human but that these two aspects were completely separate. They are different from the Orthodox because the Orthodoxy saw the humanity and divinity as being equally present, the Nestorians saw Jesus as a human with divinity inserted post-production.

The Arians believed that Jesus was the son of god, but that he was not divine, but was a separate subordinate human son kind of like a Greek demi-god.

There is also the Donatists, who you will see mentioned if you research this stuff. They probably would not be present in the RP, as they were mostly worried about the nature of apostasy, which wouldn't be common in the 7th century. They were popular when large parts of the western world were still hostile to Christianity, and they represented the faction that believed that anybody who renounced Jesus, even under duress, could never be forgiven or allowed to receive the Eucharist. It is possible this idea might resurge in the face of Islam.

Now, if there is anybody better at theology than me, please speak up, because the theological divides make very little sense to me and I don't understand why anybody could ever have cared. This was shit that nearly brought the Empire to civil war several times, and it would have divided everything from rival street gangs to aristocratic families. And that I truly don't get.