Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by The Grey Dust
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@The Grey Dust
The purpose of "Add your own" is to prevent that from being an issue. Male and female are easy defaults because under non-genetically mutated situations, there are only two possible chromosome configurations, XX and XY, one thing that cannot change as culture changes. This allows users to add anything they want in the self-defined option or to use the biological defaults, preventing arguments or complaints about a particular group not being represented.


I don't see that option presently available. That or I'm doing it wrong.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LegendBegins
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@The Grey Dust

Unless I'm mistaken, that is what is being planned/considered for future iterations.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by The Grey Dust
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@The Grey Dust

Unless I'm mistaken, that is what is being planned/considered for future iterations.


Excellent then. Excellent.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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There are XY females, and they're not extremely rare, as far as mutations go (only two genes in the Y chromosome need to be mutated for that to occur). Sex is generally determined by phenotype, rather than karyotype.

/Random factoid time.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LegendBegins
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under non-genetically mutated situations

@Shienvien
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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My point was more along the lines that chromosomes are not what define sex. (As XY females do have one of the chromosomal sets you described, but aren't the "expected" sex for that set.) Biological sex is determined by the structure of the, eh, "end product". (It's also debatable whether chromosomal abnormalities like XYY (male), X_ (Turing, female), XXY (male) are mutations in the strictest sense - also note how all of those generally end up with one of the two "main" sexes, rather than intersex/nondefined variants ... of those, XYY has practically no effect whatsoever, save for slightly greater average height.)
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LegendBegins
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@Shienvien

That's a small percentage of cases and honestly not worth debating.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Pair of Hearts
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Why not just five options?

"Unspecified", "male", "female", "third gender", "genderfluid".

Anything else they can specify in their spacious 100k bio, right? Might as well put @Mahz's effort into full use!
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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There are a whole bunch of other genders (why'd you include those, but not, say, agender, which I've seen far more commonly than "third gender"? Etc, etc.), and I personally still use female/male as strictly sex (so phenotype, not identity), and never to denote gender. A pencil-in option avoids effectively all such potential conflicts of interest.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Pair of Hearts
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Sure, I'm whatever about these things so whatever you guys like.

Maybe I'm too chill to the point if I walk out into the streets with a baggy hoodie, my wavy bob, and small Asian chest, and people think I'm a girly guy I'm still cool with it. #ImpenetrableSelfAssurance

Although, I don't appreciate your tone of questioning.

why'd you include those, but not, say, agender, which I've seen far more commonly than "third gender"?


You implying discrimination on my end? I thought about that, and figured since agenders don't abide by the binary or trinary system anyway, the chill ones would be fine with unspecified.

I do admire martyrs who stand up for the minority. It's commendable, but no reason to go on a tirade about tiny details that can easily be solved with the person clarifying in bio. Most people I know have never even heard of or could remember the dozen new pronouns that surfaced for the past decade, or the specific genders that entail said each individual pronouns.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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I sometimes raise points in regards to things I've seen escalate into full-blown fights in the past, and refer to arguments seen therein rather than my own particular opinions (agender people can be just as "unchill" as any other group that feels they've been alienated, I can tell you that much ... there certainly are individuals who want it to be abundantly clear they're neither, and then there are those who say these who are strictly neither are genderless rather than agender, and...).
Generally, I've also thought about the matter long enough to try and offer some kind of solution that seems most reasonable or logical to me. You can't appeal to everyone, but if there is a very easy way to be close to all-inclusive without generating clutter, then why not be so? My general principle is "let user do whatever they want (as long as it doesn't break the law or roll over others), force them to do as little as possible".
Not that I cannot be nitpicky on my own behalf every now and then - I tend to be rather particular about my language here and there, for instance, and if something just happens to be one of those colors that'll hurt my eyes, I'll probably point that out, too.

And no, I don't have a "tone of questioning"... Unless I'm joking, all text of mine should be read deadpan. (And people often have a hard time telling if I'm joking.) I'm also tired, which doesn't exactly help my, eh, self-comprehension? (Addendum: I also don't imply things. If I actually thought something, it'd be spelled out in no uncertain terms.)
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Ellri
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Then there's those of the Z type. The kind that doesn't fit labeling. Say, those born of a Great Old One.

but less nonsensically, "Don't wanna tell", "Male", "Female" and "Other" should cover most. If people want to specify further, the bio is a nice place to do so. It just won't work practically to cover every gender option possible. Not everyone will bother to add a gender, and of those that do, we suspect that the vast majority will use either male or female. At least if you go with normal gender distribution for a human population.

and you can't exactly claim that the options not specifically male or female aren't covered by "other" can you?
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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by NuttsnBolts
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I honestly think discussing possible options to have listed is a fruitless exercise considering there could be 71 different gender options that we would have to list if we we're to go down this road of selection.

Easiest option would be "custom" and we either list every option or we allow custom input like "attack helicopter".
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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Making a custom field would be no harder than giving us all user titles. Mahz implemented those on the same day those were brought up. Chances are it's pretty much just copy-paste, and it's a single-time effort in any case.
There is no functional reason that I can think of here and now why not to give users that tiny bit of additional customization, rather than having them clutter their bio/status/user title with info most others have elsewhere. Especially if their bio happens to be huge and majority of individuals who glance at their profile might not read it. And so on and so forth. I've also seen plenty of people who do, indeed, consider "other"-option alienating.
So in the end, why argue against a pencil-in option? Sometimes, "But why not?" is the most telling question of them all. Since I can't think of any objective reasons, why not just give users 128 letters to say whatever they are in their own terminology and call it a day?
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LegendBegins
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The offer of choice is inevitably the invitation of conflict. Once a gate has been opened to allow additional choice, people can see no reason to not be offered every choice lest they cry discrimination. As time progresses, there is no way to tell what other options people will create, so it is much more beneficial to the peace of the community to offer absolute choice, the ability to add any label they prefer, or the removal of all choice/refusal to offer anything more than what is given. For this reason (and to avoid further conflict), it would be best to simply offer the user a query to add any title they would like.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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As time progresses, there is no way to tell what other options people will create, so it is much more beneficial to the peace of the community to offer absolute choice, the ability to add any label they prefer, or the removal of all choice/refusal to offer anything more than what is given. For this reason (and to avoid further conflict), it would be best to simply offer the user a query to add any title they would like.
That's a fairly eloquent way of saying what I've being trying to convey.

Let all the "nonbinary" genders be whatever they are, let me be oddly pedantic and mark my gender as "woman" rather than my sex, since those are different things and putting my sex where it says "gender" doesn't really make sense to me (I'm also a programmer, but that isn't my gender, either).
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by NuttsnBolts
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<Snipped quote> That's a fairly eloquent way of saying what I've being trying to convey.

Let all the "nonbinary" genders be whatever they are, let me be oddly pedantic and mark my gender as "woman" rather than my sex, since those are different things and putting my sex where it says "gender" doesn't really make sense to me (I'm also a programmer, but that isn't my gender, either).


Agreed, and this may debunk my last post but you bring up a good point. Are we discussing gender or sexual orientation? I think the two are getting lost in translation.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Zardoric
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For this reason (and to avoid further conflict), it would be best to simply offer the user a query to add any title they would like.


(I'm also including that others of this mind with this post.)

I would like to point out that since the system used is a symbol system (meaning it uses symbols instead of words), that custom options aren't possible (or is at the very least more difficult). This means that "No choice, Male, Female, Other" are the most efficient options. This doesn't mean that you are wrong with your idea, just that with the current system it wouldn't work.

Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Shienvien
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There is sex (body type - male, female, intersex, hermaphrodite, sexless/nondistinct), there is gender (identity and/or brain structure - man, woman, bigender, agender, genderless, fluid, queer, demi, gray, attack helicopter, ...), and it's occasionally important to make clear which you're speaking of. Transpeople are what happens when sex and gender clash.
Sexual orientation is a different matter and hasn't thus far been addressed, as far as I'm aware.

I would like to point out that since the system used is a symbol system (meaning it uses symbols instead of words), that custom options aren't possible (or is at the very least more difficult).
The site doesn't care whether it's a word or a tiny image. The worst it'd do is break the outlay a bit for long-usernamed people by being a bit longer itself - just move it under the user title or into the info section below, problem solved.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Mahz
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@Altered Tundra

Made an issue for the VM notification linkage fix: github.com/danneu/guild/issues/142

@Pair of Hearts Good idea. I'll do something simple like bump to 10 convo recipients if you have 30+ posts on the forum.

Issue: github.com/danneu/guild/issues/143

@The Grey Dust I think NotTelling | Male | Female | <Fill in the blank> should be a good compromise.

Issue: github.com/danneu/guild/issues/144

@Pair of Hearts

>A feature to create your own Folders would be much appreciated, too. My Inbox, Starred, Archive and Trash are all over the place.

Yeah, the PM system is still straight shit.

The first glaring issue I want to fix is highlighting convos/folders in the user interface when they have unread PMs: github.com/danneu/guild/issues/140

It would take some work to refactor the PM system in customizable folders, but it is something I want to do: github.com/danneu/guild/issues/145
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