Taking pride in your sexuality as the sole factor of your existence is dumb.

I can go much more into detail on this and why I think it's remarkably stupid (I have countered Rica's points before but we got shut down before I ever got a reply) to take pride in your sexuality as if it somehow is the single deciding factor of who you are.

You're more than gay. Lessening yourself to nothing more than gay or whatever the fuck the Tumblrites are calling it now is not only insulting to yourself, but also insulting to me for making me waste my time looking at sexuality where I don't want to see it (namely public space).

If I wanna see girls/guys dancing around half naked celebrating their gayness, I'd go to pornhub and look up the gay porn. But I don't want that, both because I am not gay and because I don't particularly care for other peoples sexualities.

@BuddhaThat's not what it is. You can keep ignoring the point of sometimes being openly gay in and of itself is a accomplishment because you don't live in a area where it's even mildly acceptable all you like but it still happens.

I got lucky. Very lucky. I know this. I know I'm privileged to have a family that doesn't care and loves me and was essentially just waiting for me to work it out on my own.

But that's just it. I'm lucky and I still deal with a lot of issues from others and society due to being queer.

That's not even touching on my best friend who's mother denies he's transgendered. Or his partner who's mom is fine with anyone else being queer but them.

So can you kindly stop ignoring the idea that we're celebrating a life we're leading that has been full of suffering but we're still here.

Because not all of us makes it that far. Especially seeing as the amount of abuse and bullying we can suffer (not always but can) makes us far more likely to commit suicide in our youth.

Not to mention we're more likely to be killed. Or how bisexual people are more likely to suffer from domestic abuse.

I could keep going. Hell I can even provide the numbers if you'd like.

We have everything to be proud of. We as a community suffered so much and we fought and we came out stronger.

That's worth celebrating.

@Rica Why do you celebrate in the way that you do? A simple google search for 'gay pride' already shows images of dudes licking phallic shaped lollipops, dudes dancing around with nothing but some shorts on and just generally things I don't want to see in public.

NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY. Because it's shit that I don't want to see.

If I go around licking lollipops shaped like a vagina that'd be a little fucking odd don't you think? I've told you before specifically the reasons why I think celebrations in public in the way that they occur are fucking stupid (mostly because they're not enforcing acceptance or encouraging unity, but rather enforce non-unity and segregation and separation.)

But I am actually interested in what you have got to say because I don't agree. Let's go.

@BuddhaThat's not what it is. You can keep ignoring the point of sometimes being openly gay in and of itself is a accomplishment because you don't live in a area where it's even mildly acceptable all you like but it still happens.

I'm not sure what your point is because your words are jumbled but from what I understand you're saying that because I am European I shouldn't get to speak on what I think of gay prides? I'm sorry. We have gay prides and I have attended them. Violence against homosexuals still happens (I highlighted specifically how/why in the last post but I can do it again; people are generally acceptive of people that are not straight or whatever, but Muslims in particular have a hard time accepting it. A close second are skinheads who also don't really like 'different' people but at the same time skinheads are also often the people who don't care so that's a double edged sword.)

This report is in Dutch and it states that violence against homosexuals nearly doubled in the past years.

Sounds bad right. No, it raised from 600 odd to 1100 odd. (Source in Dutch).

Over a populace of 17 million people that's really not that much. But it's there and we face it. (Also I think the definition of violence against homosexuals is weird in the Netherlands; it includes cussing at for example. Sorry, if you can't handle being cussed at and need to file a police report for that, maybe you should stay inside.)

Also please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I don't see the point. I said I don't see the point in taking pride in your sexuality. I don't mean you can't be proud of being gay (though frankly I find that weird, I'm not proud of being heterosexual because that's just who I am) I mean you shouldn't be proud of the fact that you are sexual.

It's the difference of being proud of surviving hate against homo's, and being proud of being a guy and sucking dick, or being a girl and eating pussy. That's nothing to be proud of.

I got lucky. Very lucky. I know this. I know I'm privileged to have a family that doesn't care and loves me and was essentially just waiting for me to work it out on my own.

But that's just it. I'm lucky and I still deal with a lot of issues from others and society due to being queer.

More power to you. I'm happy for you.

That's not even touching on my best friend who's mother denies he's transgendered. Or his partner who's mom is fine with anyone else being queer but them.

Anecdotal evidence at best but I'll bite. Yes, a lot of people (specifically in USA, if we're gonna ignore countries like Arab countries and African countries) are not accepting. This is a fact of life. The way to acceptance is in my opinion NOT having a gay pride, it's fitting in and showing you are just as human as the next person.

At the same time transgenderism is a mental disease (that makes it sound bad, but really, it is.) Your brain feels like a woman/man when your sex is the opposite. There is a cure namely a sex change. I think that transgender people deserve all the help they can get in this process, however I want to remind you that the amount of people that commit suicide after a sex change is very high (because often the sex change isn't what they 'wanted' so to speak) so this is kinda a weird issue.

Regardless I hope you can understand what I mean with this. Not saying that transgenders are 'ingrates' or anything. They are just mentally not well and need help to fix that.

So can you kindly stop ignoring the idea that we're celebrating a life we're leading that has been full of suffering but we're still here.

Oh lord, you have a life full of suffering. Self-pity is a wonderful thing isn't it. Everyone has issues. Again, get over it. I don't see a 'depression pride' anywhere. It's fucking baffling how people think having a parade can fix anything at all. It doesn't fix anything.

And before you say it: yes straight people have issues too. It just so happens that their issues don't have anything to do with sexuality. But I've seen you speak on hetero's before and your tone is generally filled with disdain (non intended, I'm sure, as you seem like a relatively nice person otherwise.) so I'd like to ask you to reconsider your stance ever so slightly to compensate for the fact that everyone has issues, not just you.

Because not all of us makes it that far. Especially seeing as the amount of abuse and bullying we can suffer (not always but can) makes us far more likely to commit suicide in our youth.

There are lots of things that can make people commit suicide. You should see the suicide statistics.



For example being male already gives you statistically triple amount of chance to commit suicide.



Correlating slightly to the previous image. I'd seriously like to see a study that shows the differences between LGBT suicides and 'cishet' suicides. Because there is none according to me an what I see here.

The fact of the matter seems to be that men commit suicide more often, with gay men and straight men making up 3 quarters of the suicide demographic which seems to infer that the main driving factor for suicide is in fact GENDER and not SEXUALITY as you'd like me to believe no?

Interesting sidenote: whites are noticeably more represented in suicide demographics.

Not to mention we're more likely to be killed. Or how bisexual people are more likely to suffer from domestic abuse.

Your first suggestion seems to infer that you're the most likely group to be killed which is actually not true. It's certainly an aggravating factor though. I like to think people that are in gangs are still more likely to be killed but what do I know.

I'm not sure on the bisexual thing. If it's true I'd like to know why the factor that they are bisexual specifically makes it more likely. Could be true.

I could keep going. Hell I can even provide the numbers if you'd like.

No need, I did it for you, but you can counter me with your sources if you want.

We have everything to be proud of.

Arguably, I never said you have nothing to be proud of. But if you are choosing your sexuality (AKA YOUR SEXUAL ACTIVITY) as a thing to be proud of then I would like to ask you why your life is so bad that you have nothing else to be proud of. Ever won a medal? Be proud of that.

We as a community suffered so much and we fought and we came out stronger.

I'm sure you did.

That's worth celebrating.

I agree. Behind closed doors. In a venue that is rented off. You know, like all other minority groups do?

Let's forget the whole straight-pride aids fest because I agree that's just stupid, as I am against 'pride' in general. Straight-pride is just how people deal with the fact that they're being vilified (which is true, you should see the tumblr posts that some of these gay-pride/LGBTQ+++ drama queens make stating all hetero's should die, right?).

Think for a moment about another minority. What other minority gets local parades? I can think of 1. Black people have 'black history month' which arguably is just as stupid as a gay pride. That's all I can think of.

If you want to be equal, then be equal, and do as we do. As everyone else does. Celebrate your gayness or whatever the hell you wanna celebrate in private with the people who also want to celebrate.

Don't shove it into my face. I am happy for you that you've succeeded in life but fuck, I don't wanna see grown men walking around with bondage equipment around their chest licking phallic shaped lollipops. I'm sorry. I just don't want to see that, please fucking respect that and have some decency.

what the righteous fuck happened in 1970? Like, what I get from this graph is that suicide rates followed each other until then, and then suddenly it smashes right the fuck up. That seems significant, and I can't imagine what could cause it. Especially when it is comparing, like, turn of the century generations that would have had to contend with sweat shop labor conditions.

If I go around licking lollipops shaped like a vagina that'd be a little fucking odd don't you think?

I am pretty sure I've seen those at gag shops actually. I'm kind of surprised. Dick shaped foods is a staple of the stereotypical American bachelorette party. American, as in "My state won't allow strip clubs because of Jesus" America, has these things. I figured with Netherlands being what it is you'd have genital-shaped treats in all your ice cream shops.

What other minority gets local parades?

The Irish get the most parades in the US. Never actually seen a gay pride parade in the flesh, but I've seen plenty of Irish parades. And many communities is the US have ethnic festivals which are really boss because they serve fucked up foreign food. Town next door just finished their Slavic festival. First time I had mutton was at a Basque festival. Sometimes those have parades, but they almost always take up a park and are funded by the Chamber of Commerce. I've been to tons of those, but again never saw a gay pride.

@Rica Why do you celebrate in the way that you do? A simple google search for 'gay pride' already shows images of dudes licking phallic shaped lollipops, dudes dancing around with nothing but some shorts on and just generally things I don't want to see in public.

NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY. Because it's shit that I don't want to see.

If I go around licking lollipops shaped like a vagina that'd be a little fucking odd don't you think? I've told you before specifically the reasons why I think celebrations in public in the way that they occur are fucking stupid (mostly because they're not enforcing acceptance or encouraging unity, but rather enforce non-unity and segregation and separation.)

As vilageidiot said those are pretty common gag gifts and honestly if it's in the dead middle of what's essentially a party I really doubt people would care.

I'm not sure what your point is because your words are jumbled but from what I understand you're saying that because I am European I shouldn't get to speak on what I think of gay prides?

No I'm not. I actually don't think you understand exactly what it's like to live in this world as a queer person because you, by your own words, aren't. That simple.

The way to acceptance is in my opinion NOT having a gay pride, it's fitting in and showing you are just as human as the next person.

That'd be easier if we weren't killed for exposing ourselves and assumed straight unless we tell every human being we meet otherwise.

At the same time transgenderism is a mental disease (that makes it sound bad, but really, it is.) Your brain feels like a woman/man when your sex is the opposite. There is a cure namely a sex change. I think that transgender people deserve all the help they can get in this process, however I want to remind you that the amount of people that commit suicide after a sex change is very high (because often the sex change isn't what they 'wanted' so to speak) so this is kinda a weird issue.

No you're right it is technically a mental illness. And honestly I think the only way to resolve the unfortunate issue of the sex change sometimes making things worse is if we were more accepting of the concept of gender presentation not needing to match gender identity. Because fuck if it's not more complicated than people like to think. The sooner we stop running with the assumption you must adhere to this, this and that traits to be a man/woman, the sooner people will be free to express themselves however they wish without having to change things they might not want to change.

Regardless I hope you can understand what I mean with this. Not saying that transgenders are 'ingrates' or anything. They are just mentally not well and need help to fix that.

They do it's a very unfortunate situation.

Oh lord, you have a life full of suffering. Self-pity is a wonderful thing isn't it. Everyone has issues. Again, get over it. I don't see a 'depression pride' anywhere. It's fucking baffling how people think having a parade can fix anything at all. It doesn't fix anything.

It's not about fixing anything. Like I said it's a celebration.

But I've seen you speak on hetero's before and your tone is generally filled with disdain (non intended, I'm sure, as you seem like a relatively nice person otherwise.) so I'd like to ask you to reconsider your stance ever so slightly to compensate for the fact that everyone has issues, not just you.

My disdain has less to do with heterosexual people but rather obtuse people who refuse to be empathetic to the point of view of someone who lives a life from a very different perspective than they do because they aren't heterosexual.

Unfortunately most people who can't look past the fact tend to be heterosexual.

The fact of the matter seems to be that men commit suicide more often, with gay men and straight men making up 3 quarters of the suicide demographic which seems to infer that the main driving factor for suicide is in fact GENDER and not SEXUALITY as you'd like me to believe no?

Those numbers are also missing one key note If you look at the bottom at suicide attempts, while men are more likely to succeed. Women are more likely to attempt. But men tend to go for methods that are quick and efficient, like guns and hangings. So they're much less likely to be saved and taken to a hospital. The chart above the section on suicide attempts shows that firearms make up of almost half of suicides.

So you're not wrong, men are more likely to kill themselves. That alone is correct. But gay youth from ages 10 to 24 Are overall more likely to make an attempt on their lives or think of committing suicide which is also directly linked to events of bullying and abuse.

Your first suggestion seems to infer that you're the most likely group to be killed which is actually not true. It's certainly an aggravating factor though. I like to think people that are in gangs are still more likely to be killed but what do I know.

Gang related murder and crime is it's own can of worms because it's not hate crime related.

The truth of the matter is the worst 'category' to be in right now is Transwomen. They are far more likely to experience hate crimes and death and sexual violence than any other group. Especially if you add race into the mix. Since black transwomen are even more at risk.

And unfortunately hate crimes get worse immediately after laws are placed to protect or give these groups rights to match everyone else. Such as the sudden rise in murders against transwomen (particularly people of color) after a law was enacted to included gender identity in hate crimes

This is unfortunately common seeing as it also happened when same sex marriage was legalized in the US

People don't want the government treating us like people. That's just a fact. They get mad when they afford us the same rights and hate crime status because that means we're being accepted.

I'm not sure on the bisexual thing. If it's true I'd like to know why the factor that they are bisexual specifically makes it more likely. Could be true.

Here's a article addressing the findings about bisexual women and rape/domestic violence

This is something both heterosexual and queer people have an issue with outright. We (generally) are absolutely horrible to bisexual partners. It's most likely due to some very unfortunate and false beliefs about bisexual people causing resentment. A lot of gross beliefs that they're just greedy, they need to 'pick a side', don't even get me started on the 'gold star lesbian' crap (basically you're a gold star lesbian if you've never been with a man).

Arguably, I never said you have nothing to be proud of. But if you are choosing your sexuality (AKA YOUR SEXUAL ACTIVITY) as a thing to be proud of then I would like to ask you why your life is so bad that you have nothing else to be proud of. Ever won a medal? Be proud of that.

I can in fact be proud of both my achievements personally and the fact that I've made it this far as a queer person. Pride isn't really a one or the other. A lot of us have considered suicide, myself included. Is there really anything wrong with celebrating life?

which is true, you should see the tumblr posts that some of these gay-pride/LGBTQ+++ drama queens make stating all hetero's should die, right?

I do see them. And while I'm just as guilty of being mildly frustrated with straight people (Again this is mostly due to ignorance of the fact we are different and that's ok. We don't have to be just like you to be ok.) The idea that they need to die doesn't sit right with me.

Think for a moment about another minority. What other minority gets local parades? I can think of 1. Black people have 'black history month' which arguably is just as stupid as a gay pride. That's all I can think of.

@Vilageidiotx covered this one for me.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

As vilageidiot said those are pretty common gag gifts and honestly if it's in the dead middle of what's essentially a party I really doubt people would care.

I'm sure you realize as well as me that this is a specific example and that, with a simple google search, you can pull up stuff that's much less a gag and more or less straight up sexual, my friend.

No I'm not. I actually don't think you understand exactly what it's like to live in this world as a queer person because you, by your own words, aren't. That simple.

I'm sorry, since I'm not queer I'm not allowed to speak?

That'd be easier if we weren't killed for exposing ourselves and assumed straight unless we tell every human being we meet otherwise.

I'm sorry that people assume you're part of the majority.

LGBT people do not have physical traits that set them apart from the majority. What do you want them to do, smell that you're queer? Please don't go there. I can't smell what you are and so I'm gonna address you as what I think you are.

I don't think people that expose themselves as LGBT or so get killed. They may get shunned. Maybe deal with violence. Maybe maybe deal with murder. They're an easy target I'm sure that is true. But to assume that all LGBT people might get killed just for saying 'hey I'm gay' is ridiculous.

No you're right it is technically a mental illness. And honestly I think the only way to resolve the unfortunate issue of the sex change sometimes making things worse is if we were more accepting of the concept of gender presentation not needing to match gender identity. Because fuck if it's not more complicated than people like to think. The sooner we stop running with the assumption you must adhere to this, this and that traits to be a man/woman, the sooner people will be free to express themselves however they wish without having to change things they might not want to change.

So.. if they don't want to change from a female into a male or male into a female, are they transgender? Because you lost me now. The concept of gender seems to be lost on you. What you're describing is not gender. Gender is not a coloring book where you can draw what you want. It's something that we created socially in order to organize ourselves and create labels for people.

The labels happen to be male, female, and transgender.

this and that traits to be a man/woman

This is gender. The stereotypical traits that are commonly associated with a certain sex based on culture, heritage and social norms, combine to form a gender. You can be of the male sex and still identify as a female in your gender based on the concept that if you behave and act like a woman, you have the female gender.

This is just facts. I'm sorry if you disagree, you should become a sociologist and challenge this concept, or otherwise begin writing papers, because this is just how it's been agreed on.

It's not about fixing anything. Like I said it's a celebration.

I get that. I think you are celebrating the wrong things. I don't want to deny you your party. I just think you'd be better off celebrating other things. And even then I don't care that much. My real sticking point is that it happens in a public space and you're forcing people to look at things that they do not want to see.

Don't get me wrong. I think men should be capable of kissing in public (and they are here in the Netherlands, nobody will say a thing.) but the point where I draw the line is indecency and a single 'gay pride' term in the search bar can show you exactly why. It's the same way I don't really like how we advertise underwear using scantily clad models of either sex. I just don't like it in the public space. And really, do search for gay pride. I'm sure you can understand why I wouldn't like it.

My disdain has less to do with heterosexual people but rather obtuse people who refuse to be empathetic to the point of view of someone who lives a life from a very different perspective than they do because they aren't heterosexual.

Unfortunately most people who can't look past the fact tend to be heterosexual.

.. I'm confused. How do you expect everyone to see stuff from your perspective? This has nothing to do with being gay or not, this has to do with your inability to deal with the fact that people have differing views.

I'm also not very empahetic, mostly because I really don't care.

Those numbers are also missing one key note If you look at the bottom at suicide attempts, while men are more likely to succeed. Women are more likely to attempt. But men tend to go for methods that are quick and efficient, like guns and hangings. So they're much less likely to be saved and taken to a hospital. The chart above the section on suicide attempts shows that firearms make up of almost half of suicides.

This doesn't disqualify my theory that the fact that being gay or not has very little to do with sexuality and more with gender, mostly because 5% of women suicides is gay, where as 20% is heterosexual. There's a gap. The roles should be reversed in this case if what you're saying holds true. I'd like you to explain why 5% is gay where as the 20% is straight where as you are saying this is not true.

So you're not wrong, men are more likely to kill themselves. That alone is correct. But gay youth from ages 10 to 24 Are overall more likely to make an attempt on their lives or think of committing suicide which is also directly linked to events of bullying and abuse.

LGB youth are 4 times more likely, and questioning youth are 3 times more likely, to attempt suicide as their straight peers.

says nothing about being bullied.

Each episode of LGBT victimization, such as physical or verbal harassment or abuse, increases the likelihood of self-harming behavior by 2.5 times on average.

I'd like to know if this holds true for 'victimization' in general. I happen to think that bullying in general raises the chances of self harming by 2.5 times on average, RATHER than just for LGBT people.

Gang related murder and crime is it's own can of worms because it's not hate crime related.

This doesn't mean that being LGBT is just an aggravating cause that raises the chances of getting killed. If we're gonna label every murder on a LGBT person as a hatecrime then the list would be very big. But we don't do that, because sometimes people get killed over something OTHER than their sexuality.

LGBT's are not the biggest group of people currently being murdered. There are certain other lifestyles and jobs and such that carry risk of death with them. Such as being a cop.

A cop has a higher risk of dying than normal people. You can be a gay cop, making your risk of dying even higher, despite the fact that these two things (being gay and a cop) are not related at all.

The truth of the matter is the worst 'category' to be in right now is Transwomen. They are far more likely to experience hate crimes and death and sexual violence than any other group. Especially if you add race into the mix. Since black transwomen are even more at risk.

Yeah, nice try. Read your own folder. This folder categorizes 'hatecrime' as crime against lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender,
queer (LGBTQ), and HIV-affected communities. And therefore that automatically means that this statistic, WHILE TRAGIC, has nothing really to do with what was being said. You're miscontruing these folders to fit your agenda.

What is actually being said in this folder is that out of all the LGBT people + HIV community, trans women are most likely to experience violence. Which is sad. But that doesn't really mean anything for the discussion we are having.

And unfortunately hate crimes get worse immediately after laws are placed to protect or give these groups rights to match everyone else. Such as the sudden rise in murders against transwomen (particularly people of color) after a law was enacted to included gender identity in hate crimes
This is unfortunately common seeing as it also happened when same sex marriage was legalized in the US

It's sad that America is lightyears behind Europe when it comes to this. I'm sorry for the people that suffer because of that.

People don't want the government treating us like people. That's just a fact. They get mad when they afford us the same rights and hate crime status because that means we're being accepted. Not much else I can say about this except for the fact that the acts of the few should not account for the thoughts of many. I'm sure there was public outrage at these murders. Either way, this is an American situation, and does not happen where I live. .. thus making gay prides even more unnecessary, because there is accordingly nothing to celebrate about surviving.

Here's a article addressing the findings about bisexual women and rape/domestic violence

This is something both heterosexual and queer people have an issue with outright. We (generally) are absolutely horrible to bisexual partners. It's most likely due to some very unfortunate and false beliefs about bisexual people causing resentment. A lot of gross beliefs that they're just greedy, they need to 'pick a side', don't even get me started on the 'gold star lesbian' crap (basically you're a gold star lesbian if you've never been with a man).

Can't say I relate. Seems like an issue that's particular to the US because I've never heard of this before.

Very interesting stuff. I'll read on it some more.

How does one get 'greedy' when it comes to sex :/

I can in fact be proud of both my achievements personally and the fact that I've made it this far as a queer person. Pride isn't really a one or the other. A lot of us have considered suicide, myself included. Is there really anything wrong with celebrating life?

And I can support being proud of that.

I don't support being proud of being gay in and of itself. Being proud of surviving, yes, being proud of 1 thing that doesn't define you (like being gay) is not so much a prideful thing for me.

Have you considered many straight people also have considered suicide, myself included, for issues that were not related to sexuality, but were still issues?

I do see them. And while I'm just as guilty of being mildly frustrated with straight people (Again this is mostly due to ignorance of the fact we are different and that's ok. We don't have to be just like you to be ok.) The idea that they need to die doesn't sit right with me.

And I'm mildly frustrated with LGBT people for not accepting some things are just the way they are (talking about the fact that people will call you a man if you look like one, even if you don't 'identify' as one, because we can't smell that shit). Doesn't mean I dislike LGBT people. They're just people, so I don't really hold them accountable for their group.

@Vilageidiotx covered this one for me.

Must be an American thing. We don't have any parades at all, basically gay pride is the only thing here. Well, maybe the two other times you'll see a blocked off route is for a marathon or for Kings/queensday.

I also wonder why Americans are so obsessed with heritage and culture. Most Slavs living in America are barely Slavic at all. Most Irish living in America are barely Irish at all. It seems like some vague attempt at getting glory and/or something to be proud of because you are lacking in personal achievements.

Polish people moving to the Netherlands often celebrate culture behind closed doors. Outside of the doors, they're Dutch. That goes for many minorities, LGBT included.

@Buddha

I'm sure you realize as well as me that this is a specific example and that, with a simple google search, you can pull up stuff that's much less a gag and more or less straight up sexual, my friend.

You've never been in a Spencer's have you? I've been seeing stuff like this since I was 13 and old enough to go into the mall by myself without adult supervision.

It's a party. You go to the party. You deal with the party. You don't go to the hosts throwing the party for themselves and say 'Hey I don't like this.' even though the party isn't even for you.

So.. if they don't want to change from a female into a male or male into a female, are they transgender? Because you lost me now. The concept of gender seems to be lost on you. What you're describing is not gender. Gender is not a coloring book where you can draw what you want. It's something that we created socially in order to organize ourselves and create labels for people.

The labels happen to be male, female, and transgender.

Gender isn't a binary. It's not. It's not one or the other. Gender is horribly complex and people shouldn't just decide 'the brain works like THIS' when we don't know. We also have proof that gender is far more complex than boy or girl.

More than that Sex, Gender, and Gender Presentation are very different. I can dress as much as a man as I like. I'm still a woman. Changing my clothes or hair doesn't suddenly change that I'm a cisgendered woman. My roommate wearing a dress doesn't suddenly make him not a transgendered man. Those are still very true things.

There's also a theory that gender might just be a social construct (which is entirely possible because we don't very well understand the brain still.).

I'm also not very empahetic, mostly because I really don't care.

You're not unique in this. Most heterosexual people are either outright hateful, don't care (like you do), or try to be 'allies' and end up making it all about themselves and how 'wonderful' they are for being supportive. There are some that do the right thing and things are improving overall but it's a simple fact that 'I don't care' or 'You deserve it' is the general response to horrible treatment of LGBTQ+ people. See: The response to the Pulse incident was overall either anti-Muslim (Don't care and 'allies') or how sinful we were and that God was just enacting his wrath on us sinful fags.

How does one get 'greedy' when it comes to sex :/

I don't fucking know. It's just an assumption that bisexuals will cheat because they 'can't be satisfied by one gender' and it's fucking stupid. I hate it so much.

for issues that were not related to sexuality

You hit the nail on the head here. Yes Heterosexual people suffer too and yes they consider suicide too.

They've never had to deal with the feeling of wanting to die just for something you can't help or control. For something that shouldn't even be a problem.

I also wonder why Americans are so obsessed with heritage and culture.

Because our country is so mixed and complex with so many different heritages and cultures to pull from. So people want to cling to their personal traditions so they don't get lost.

The US is very unique. Our country isn't 'One' heritage like many others are. Ours is such a mix that everyone is free to express their culture openly. (Legally anyway. Culturally however is another story.)

@Buddha<Snipped quote>

You've never been in a Spencer's have you? I've been seeing stuff like this since I was 13 and old enough to go into the mall by myself without adult supervision.

We don't have Spencer's. I wouldn't like to go to one, if bondage equipment and public indecency is a part of it. I'm sorry.

It's a party. You go to the party. You deal with the party. You don't go to the hosts throwing the party for themselves and say 'Hey I don't like this.' even though the party isn't even for you.

Oh no. It's not a party. I think you're finally understanding what I am saying.

If it was a private party, where like you said, I go to the party and there's a host of sorts throwing it for themselves, then I would be okay with it. But it's not. It's not a private party, it's a public event, so if I have to walk through the street where it takes place to get to my home and this event takes place outside of my home (which it does in the Netherlands, and I assume in America too) then I have to look at it all day without any form of consent being asked from me.

The party is not private, it's a public event, and therefore the argument 'the host is throwing it for themselves and you can't complain' is rather stupid. If I start playing real fucking loud music outside of your home throughout the day, you'd get a little agitated too right?

Gender isn't a binary. It's not. It's not one or the other. Gender is horribly complex and people shouldn't just decide 'the brain works like THIS' when we don't know. We also have proof that gender is far more complex than boy or girl.

I don't wanna say you're right or wrong. I believe you are wrong, but that doesn't matter for what I am about to say.

Changing the definitions of things like gender and sexuality is something that takes time and effort (and above all a majority support), neither of which has passed and the majority support currently isn't in favor of changing these definitions.

Therefore your claim that we should understand is completely untrue, mostly because a) your cited theory hasn't been proven or disproven, or given any kind of scientific credibility, and b) people accept what they want to accept. You can't force them to agree with you, and therefore in the real world you will just be unable to convince them otherwise.

It's not a win-lose game, it's just that people in the real world (and I'm speaking specifically in America) are so rooted in their convictions that you're just gonna have to wait for the next generation to roll around, who does agree with these things.

It's a generational process. That goes for literally every ideology or idea.

More than that Sex, Gender, and Gender Presentation are very different. I can dress as much as a man as I like. I'm still a woman. Changing my clothes or hair doesn't suddenly change that I'm a cisgendered woman. My roommate wearing a dress doesn't suddenly make him not a transgendered man. Those are still very true things.

No, changing your hair and clothes might mean people will mistake you for a cisgendered man. Your roommate wearing a dress might make people think he is a woman (and that might be what he wants). Actually I don't know, you're saying it's a woman that became a man? In that case, wearing a dress might be a little odd but frankly I don't have a problem with it.

You know straight people can wear a dress too right? I mean, I wouldn't, mostly because I don't feel like it, but we can and some of us do. There's no need to relate dresses and clothing or hair to gender. Gender has less to do with physical appearance and more with behavior.

It's about social, cultural and behavioral factors that decide gender. For instance, one culture (say western culture) says that women should have long hair. That's therefore a stereotype thing that people with a female gender have (t'is the reason boys with long hair are often teased about being a girl). In Africa, girls are not told to have long hair, because their hair grows short and nappy. Therefore this stereotype about the female gender does not hold true there.

They are just traits that are commonly associated with one or the other sex, but they can be applied to the sex that they're not part of. I.e. a man can have long hair and still be a man. Their gender could be either.

There's also a theory that gender might just be a social construct (which is entirely possible because we don't very well understand the brain still.).

The truth to this is that yes, gender is a social construct (TO A DEGREE) because it depends on culture and therefore the social environment of a given location can be a large factor. Like I said, western world vs. African ideas on femininity.

However there are also just some biological factors, for example child-birthing is a trait of the feminine gender, and it's something men can't do. Wish we could, so we could show the women that we're just as capable of withstanding that pain, but ya.

There are just a few factors that weigh into gender. And the thing is, I see a lot of people saying that gender is this and that, where as that's simply not true. Gender in China is different from Africa is different from America is different from Czechia. They are different everywhere. It's important to remember that.

You're not unique in this. Most people in general are either outright hateful, don't care (like you do), or try to be 'allies' and end up making it all about themselves and how 'wonderful' they are for being supportive.

Fixed it. People are assholes, not just heterosexuals, and there are a lot of LGBT people that ruin the community of LGBT people for the other LGBT's.

There are some that do the right thing and things are improving overall but it's a simple fact that 'I don't care' or 'You deserve it' is the general response to horrible treatment of LGBTQ+ people. See: The response to the Pulse incident was overall either anti-Muslim (Don't care and 'allies') or how sinful we were and that God was just enacting his wrath on us sinful fags.

American problems, Christians here don't hate LGBT's unless you're in the bible belt, and everyone here thinks those people are stupid idiots for not vaccinating their kids anyway, so there's more general disdain for the bible belt than the LGBT people. There are a lot of programs to help LGBT people in that area, actually.

Furthermore, I want to elaborate on 'I don't care'. I don't care because in my country this is not a problem. I'd dare say in the entirety of Western Europe this is not a problem.

I also don't care because frankly I have my own issues. And I do support the LGBT movement in general, but I am nothing if I am not contrarian and critical. I think a large part of the American LGBT community has the wrong idea about how to fix their issues. They're idealistic at best and naïve at worst. For example, they distance themselves from heterosexuals, where as in a realistic view they'd realize that heterosexuals are the norm, the majority, and that without the help of 'god damn cishet whites' you can't get anything done because fact of the matter is, in America, cishet's run the country, and therefore you need their help to fix anything at all.

And also I really don't care mostly because I find it really hard to care about something I am not invested in. I am not LGBT. I have never seen violence against LGBT people, because I'm Dutch. The one time we saw it in the news, there was public outrage and we called for the murder, yes the murder, of those that committed the crime (I believe a gay guy was killed by two Moroccan youths. It was accidental because they beat him up and then left him behind, but they beat him up so bad he died later).

I hope you can understand, therefore, that I find it also really hard to care about people complaining about how much they struggle, because I'm an asshole. I'm sure you've noticed that by now, but really, I'm just having a critical debate here with you and I've seen numerous points of yours (for example the bisexual thing, that was pretty interesting, but it seems to be once again an American only thing.) that were quite good.

I don't fucking know. It's just an assumption that bisexuals will cheat because they 'can't be satisfied by one gender' and it's fucking stupid. I hate it so much.

Hey man, people are stupid, what can we say. I've never heard of this phenomena but it seems rather stupid.

You hit the nail on the head here. Yes Heterosexual people suffer too and yes they consider suicide too.

They've never had to deal with the feeling of wanting to die just for something you can't help or control. For something that shouldn't even be a problem.

I mean..

Work.
Depression.
Divorce.
Court settlements.
Being bullied for being ugly.
Being bullied for having braces/glasses.
Having problems at home (parents fight).

There's a lot of things. Being gay is just one of the things on that list.

Because our country is so mixed and complex with so many different heritages and cultures to pull from. So people want to cling to their personal traditions so they don't get lost.

Stupid. To a European it's funny because I noticed that they just follow trends. I'm Germanic and pagan, and my only way of showing 'pride' about this is wearing a '⊕' necklace. That's it.

There were so few American pagans, and most of them were just pagan to be edgy. Ever since that series Vikings came out, suddenly every American white man has become a pagan and their ancestors were suddenly Vikings. It just seems like they're doing it because it's hot. In 20 years, when a movie about Crusaders comes out and becomes the next hot thing, suddenly you'll see guys running around with longswords and shields with crosses on them. That's my main issue with this.

The US is very unique. Our country isn't 'One' heritage like many others are. Ours is such a mix that everyone is free to express their culture openly. (Legally anyway. Culturally however is another story.)

Us too. We have a long history of accepting anyone into our country. Carribeans come here to study, because we colonized them and they're still a special province of ours (because the lands we colonized were never inhabited, we didn't really 'brutally colonize' them so to speak. So, they kinda like us.)

On the other hand those from Indonesia were also colonies, and they disliked us. So we gave them freedom after World War 2 and now we help them out (white mans burden... I kid. We help them because we officially still have good ties. The Indonesians themselves love us, but the government doesn't.)

Hm, let's see. Following world war 2 we had a lack of labor so we invited Turks and Morrocans to come work here as cheap labor, and they never left. The Turks are integrating really well.

We have a large Chinatown where I love. Lovely people. Also we have a lot of Poles and other Slavs living here now.

Putins daughter lived in the Netherlands before she was brought back to Russia following the MH17 thing.

In short; what America has isn't so special. The difference is we don't care. People celebrate their culture behind closed doors. And when they don't, it's usually an inclusive 'culture festival' where everyone from every culture participates. I like these festivals, mostly because everyone just cooks their food and you can go around eating the best food from all countries. We don't really give spotlight attention to any one given culture.

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I'm quite happy with it being where it is, thank you

Actually I take back what I said, I'm glad this Sexuality Shitstorm is in your thread and not mine.

Also please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I don't see the point.

There are worse things than words we could be putting into your mouth ;)

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Actually I take back what I said, I'm glad this Sexuality Shitstorm is in your thread and not mine.

We're not allowed to argue in your thread.

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There are worse things than words we could be putting into your mouth ;)

I'm a career pussy eater. But if the day ever comes where I decide to suck a dick, well, that's how it'll be.

I don't see it happening any time soon because I've never felt romantically/sexually inclined to a man, but if I ever do, just know I'll accept it because there are worse things.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

We're not allowed to argue in your thread.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

I'm a career pussy eater. But if the day ever comes where I decide to suck a dick, well, that's how it'll be.

I don't see it happening any time soon because I've never felt romantically/sexually inclined to a man, but if I ever do, just know I'll accept it because there are worse things.

Exactly my point.

I also wonder why Americans are so obsessed with heritage and culture. Most Slavs living in America are barely Slavic at all. Most Irish living in America are barely Irish at all. It seems like some vague attempt at getting glory and/or something to be proud of because you are lacking in personal achievements.

I think ethnic heritage is part of American culture really. I will say for one the Irish get more than anybody because St Patty's is a drinking holiday so everybody gets into it. You'll see black guys marching down the street with "Kiss me I am Irish" shirts.

But that sort of goes into it. Our national identity isn't attached to a racial one like it is in Europe, so the idea of people celebrating ethnic heritage doesn't feel out of place. Most small town ethnic festivals are more about getting people to visit and buy stuff than anything else, and we like it because we like the idea that we are a nation of immigrants (despite what some people think about new immigrants.) Our national identity is basically "Everyone left their shitty European countries to create a country in the new world that isn't shitty", and ethnic festivals back up that idea. So in a sense for us, celebrating divergence is part of celebrating being an American. I would suspect that cultural tendency is part of the reason the Pride parade is an American invention.

I would generally agree with you about the last part, that someone who becomes obsessive enough about heritage might be making up for personal failings, but these things can surely be measured in degrees. Marching in an ethnic parade, or a gay pride parade, doesn't necessarily mean that is all you ever do or all you are interested in.

@Vilageidiotx Obviously St. Patty's is a festival everyone can get into (but only Irish pubs celebrate it here, see how that works. ) because everyone's just drinking.

European national identity isn't race either frankly. It's heritage (which does include race for some) which can mean a great many thing ranging from national holidays (Sinterklaas) to religion (protestantism/paganism are some I can think of for the Netherlands) to food (ok, Dutch cuisine is severely lacking, but it's nice food for when you're really hungry) to something as stupid as the way Dutch people decorate their houses (you should see the old neighborhoods, old people make entire window displays).

It's also funny how these 'non-shitty immigrants' made the 'non-shitty new land' so shitty.

I don't think it's a bad thing that people are proud of where they come from (despite the fact that most Americans just make a bunch of shit up, ever looked into how many Americans are 2% Native American, 3% Swedish, 1% German, etc), simple people are proud of simple things. It just helps me set apart who I want to talk to and who not.

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Actually I take back what I said, I'm glad this Sexuality Shitstorm is in your thread and not mine.

I'm pretty happy with how this has turned out. Reminds me of the debate threads I'd watch before the guild got DDOSed into oblivion.

@Rocketman I think you're just someone that understands debate =/= conflict. As far as I know, me and Rica don't dislike eachother, we're just having an exchange of ideas.

@Buddha Exactly. As long as the thread doesn't divulge into petty naming calling and remains a civil discussion then I'm perfectly content with an open discourse on the matter

@Rocketman And cheers for that.

@Buddha Exactly. I don't hate you or anyone else. I might seem very.....pushy but that's because this is just something I'm very passionate about. It's not out of any genuine anger or hatred.

Just lots of passion stuffed into a 5'2" queer woman with lots to say. :P

Trust me if you get me started on Pokemon or something I'll be just as passionate because I do (as everyone does) have a life and identity outside of my sexual orientation.

It's just its own culture and community and one that I'm pretty proud to be a part of.

Keep in mind the originator of the trend was a mere attempt at trolling.