I realize it may have been a bit misleading when I said everyone is afraid of being called racist. Obviously there are always going to be exceptions to the rules. When I meant everyone, I meant "The vast majority of people I have come in contact with." Which does not include anomalies like you, those radio personalities, etc.

Ehhhh. Depends. In the past, I wouldn't have appreciated if people called me racist because I know that they call me that entirely on their perception of racism + emotional reaction. That they find me to be racist does not equate me actually being a racist (in the terms that they use it in).

It's like... there are 2 definitions for racism. A textbook definition - and an emotional/subjective definition.

But nowadays I have found that when I get called racist, sexist, or anything like that, it's a delegitimization attempt/strategy (a pretty good one). When you call someone racist, then their views are automatically disregarded, because if they are then their point is base on the hate of an entire group of people.

Hence when I look at JonTron's views, all I see is him saying things. Calling him a racist won't change the things he's saying but it only delegitimizes them under false pretenses (emotions, not arguments).

So, by now, if someone says I am racist, I just agree. Fuck yeah I'm racist. I see tribes of people. It's human nature. It's up to you yourself to challenge that and overcome it - and yes that includes black people who want to segregate themselves, and yes it includes white people who don't acknowledge that in the US there might be systematic ways where black people have a harder time doing things.

But people don't want that because challenging yourself is hard and blaming others is easy.

<Snipped quote by BrokenPromise>

Ehhhh. Depends. In the past, I wouldn't have appreciated if people called me racist because I know that they call me that entirely on their perception of racism + emotional reaction. That they find me to be racist does not equate me actually being a racist (in the terms that they use it in).

It's like... there are 2 definitions for racism. A textbook definition - and an emotional/subjective definition.

But nowadays I have found that when I get called racist, sexist, or anything like that, it's a delegitimization attempt/strategy (a pretty good one). When you call someone racist, then their views are automatically disregarded, because if they are then their point is base on the hate of an entire group of people.

Hence when I look at JonTron's views, all I see is him saying things. Calling him a racist won't change the things he's saying but it only delegitimizes them under false pretenses (emotions, not arguments).

So, by now, if someone says I am racist, I just agree. Fuck yeah I'm racist. I see tribes of people. It's human nature. It's up to you yourself to challenge that and overcome it - and yes that includes black people who want to segregate themselves, and yes it includes white people who don't acknowledge that in the US there might be systematic ways where black people have a harder time doing things.

But people don't want that because challenging yourself is hard and blaming others is easy.

So we've confirmed Jontron is a racist then?

On another note, you can't say the things he said in any working environment without getting in trouble. Jontron isn't his real name, it's his job. He's just so happened to make his job being his persona. This is like every other celebrity ever.

So did he deserve to be pulled off that game? Yeah, of course he did. He should know by now the things you can and can't say in business relationships and the things he can and can't say if he wants professionals to want to work with him. Unlike other jobs though, he wasn't fired and he still makes the same income. So he got off easy. Unlike most of us, he can spout all the shit he wants with the most minimal of consequences.

@Chrononaut You'd be making a fair point if it weren't for the fact that JonTron totally understood being pulled from the game and all he had to add to that was 'I understand the decision'. It's not him that went apeshit. Action reaction. He understands this.

I'm still not convinced that JonTron is a racist in the emotional sense. I'm not convinced that he thinks blacks are inferior. I think he makes a distinction between races based on things he considers facts. Whether those are facts or not in reality matters little because he believes them to be.

Doesn't make him a bad person IMHO.

But yeah we could say that he's a racist purely because he makes that distinction.

And I am also sure that he wouldn't have said this in 'a working environment' like an office because he's not stupid and/or retarded. But unluckily for those that are mad at him, he doesn't work in a standard working environment, but rather has made his platform into his job. That's not really his fault.

@Chrononaut You'd be making a fair point if it weren't for the fact that JonTron totally understood being pulled from the game and all he had to add to that was 'I understand the decision'. It's not him that went apeshit. Action reaction. He understands this.

I'm still not convinced that JonTron is a racist in the emotional sense. I'm not convinced that he thinks blacks are inferior. I think he makes a distinction between races based on things he considers facts. Whether those are facts or not in reality matters little because he believes them to be.

Doesn't make him a bad person IMHO.

But yeah we could say that he's a racist purely because he makes that distinction.

And I am also sure that he wouldn't have said this in 'a working environment' like an office because he's not stupid and/or retarded. But unluckily for those that are mad at him, he doesn't work in a standard working environment, but rather has made his platform into his job. That's not really his fault.

I'm responding more to the people saying "he didn't deserve it". Or "it was unfair". Or "how people view him is unfair". And I agree, he's probably a good enough sort.

Anyway, he'd seem slightly less racist if every topic he discussed wasn't somehow tied into race. Almost as if, race is a big concern in his life. Almost as if, he only weighed in on immigration because it was the first political topic he actually cared about.

@Chrononaut I don't think that the game is popular enough for this to be a major blow. Especially considering that the developers started bad mouthing him on private accounts after it happened.

I mean, if you're hiring a youtube-celebrity so you have a wider reach and some famous name attached to your game, you shouldn't be one to then go and badmouth him later on. That's just bad sportsmanship. So yes, I do consider it sort of unfair. Not that he got dropped from the game. It's not even about what he said for me to find him being dropped reasonable. There was just a large amount of shit stirred up over this so naturally you'd question 'is this guy worth it?'

I do find it unfair that the developers then started insulting him personally. That's kinda shitty.

And you make it seem like you don't think immigration is an important political issue and/or topic. It's not important to you?

It's important to me. Why isn't it important to you? Personally I think immigration is something we should be very worried about, especially in Europe, given our immigration projects have failed immensely and there are very few cultural groups that have integrated perfectly (and those are, believe it or not, mostly European cultures). Others either segregate themselves (Asians, South Americans) or are constantly a source for scandals (Arabs, Africans).

You'd rather ignore those issues because they're not legitimate, or..?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be passionate about immigration. If you're doing it for the right reasons. From what Jontron has said I can't say he's doing it for the right reasons or not. But concern about, for instance, the demographic is... a very legitimate concern, I think.

The weaponization of the term 'racist' is probably the biggest social issue facing America right now -- I rank it over actual racism, because (a) said weaponization cheapens and invalidates actual racism, (b) it radically and irrevocably alters the conversation, preventing actual progress against real racism, and (c) it's much more prevalent (says the white guy, so YMMV).

example: the title of this thread is wildly inappropriate, from an intellectual perspective. The term "possibly racist views" is outlandish and terrible, especially as a pretense for discussion.

The problem with a buzzword like racism is that it has many different meanings, and people tend to think of the strongest use of the word. You could call JonTron racist for his views, sure. We could call Dynamo Frokane a racist for implying that JonTron might be racist, even if he never directly said it. I could be called a racist for calling Dynamo black, because I'm "seeing his color." Everyone's scared of being called a racist because people still think it's a term that only applies to the worst kind of people.

I don't really consider myself black, but I wouldn't think you 'racist' for saying so.

@Buddha@mdk

I completely agree that there are a lot of professional victims who throw around words like racism and sexism too liberally, but it doesnt mean that they still arent real terms.

Racism is a real thing, its not a buzzword, or an emotional term, or just weaponised slang. Its a real adjective with real meaning. And its okay to call people racist if they are saying racist things, just because SJWs call everyone racist, it doesnt mean that calling someone racist makes you an SJW.

Also it doesnt have to have an agenda behind it, I can point out someones racism without wanting them to go to jail or lose their job. Maybe its because I want that person to reconsider their views, it doesnt have to be used maliciously.

Again this isn't really about jon tron, he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

I don't think (and I don't think anyone here thinks) racism is bad because wahhh my feelings *sob* I think racism is bad because its ignorant and doesn't hold up to hard reasoning. Assigning flaky attributes to something that doesn't scientifically exist is just illogical, if youre all about 'facts not feelings' then you should be with me on this.

<Snipped quote by BrokenPromise>

I don't really consider myself black, but I wouldn't think you 'racist' for saying so.

@Buddha@mdk

I completely agree that there are a lot of professional victims who throw around words like racism and sexism too liberally, but it doesnt mean that they still arent real terms.

Racism is a real thing, its not a buzzword, or an emotional term, or just weaponised slang. Its a real adjective with real meaning. And its okay to call people racist if they are saying racist things, just because SJWs call everyone racist, it doesnt mean that calling someone racist makes you an SJW.

Also it doesnt have to have an agenda behind it, I can point out someones racism without wanting them to go to jail or lose their job. Maybe its because I want that person to reconsider their views, it doesnt have to be used maliciously.

Again this isn't really about jon tron, he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

I don't think (and I don't think anyone here thinks) racism is bad because wahhh my feelings *sob* I think racism is bad because its ignorant and doesn't hold up to hard reasoning. Assigning flaky attributes to something that doesn't scientifically exist is just illogical, if youre all about 'facts not feelings' then you should be with me on this.

I'm sorry but you're exactly wrong. Let's highlight this arbitrary segment for emphasis: he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

What you're doing here has nothing to do with 'facts not feelings' or scientifical existence or whatever else you decided to call it -- you're determining whether or not a person (or series of statements) warrants thought, based on whether or not he/they pass the 'racist' test. It is specifically and exactly an anti-thought experiment, and it's what the weaponization of racism has produced, and it's why I'm not with you (or anyone else who's doing it) on this. To be clear, I'm not blaming you for (not?) thinking along these lines -- it's not your fault, you didn't create this problem. The problem is really, really, really, really real though, and it's waaaaaaaaaay bigger than some SJWs on twitter.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

I'm sorry but you're exactly wrong. Let's highlight this arbitrary segment for emphasis: he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

What you're doing here has nothing to do with 'facts not feelings' or scientifical existence or whatever else you decided to call it -- you're determining whether or not a person (or series of statements) warrants thought, based on whether or not he/they pass the 'racist' test. It is specifically and exactly an anti-thought experiment, and it's what the weaponization of racism has produced, and it's why I'm not with you (or anyone else who's doing it) on this. To be clear, I'm not blaming you for (not?) thinking along these lines -- it's not your fault, you didn't create this problem. The problem is really, really, really, really real though, and it's waaaaaaaaaay bigger than some SJWs on twitter.

Or maybe the fact he's a reactionary, neckbearded comedian with little evidence of actual knowledge in the subject he's discussing, along with the fact he's edging towards racism, are the reasons some people don't take his ideas seriously.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

I'm sorry but you're exactly wrong. Let's highlight this arbitrary segment for emphasis: he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

What you're doing here has nothing to do with 'facts not feelings' or scientifical existence or whatever else you decided to call it -- you're determining whether or not a person (or series of statements) warrants thought, based on whether or not he/they pass the 'racist' test. It is specifically and exactly an anti-thought experiment, and it's what the weaponization of racism has produced, and it's why I'm not with you (or anyone else who's doing it) on this. To be clear, I'm not blaming you for (not?) thinking along these lines -- it's not your fault, you didn't create this problem. The problem is really, really, really, really real though, and it's waaaaaaaaaay bigger than some SJWs on twitter.

Because there is a serious concern that by not treating racism as a sort of taboo, awful shit will be made mainstream again.

Anytime we assign something as taboo, it does have an anti - thought component. Pedophilia is a good comparison. We can't argue the merit of it because we don't want to face the potential repercussions in what we normalize. We don't want to normalize open racism, and so we make these sorts of "anti - thought" judgments.

There are of course people who abuse it. Every moral imperative comes with that threat. The trade off for sifting through abusive uses of victimization is hopefully that we avoid full blown racial pogroms.

There are of course people who abuse it. Every moral imperative comes with that threat. The trade off for sifting through abusive uses of victimization is hopefully that we avoid full blown racial pogroms.

As I've said though, today in America, the weaponization of racism is the bigger and more serious threat. By far. What I'm arguing is that we've crossed a threshold -- we're not 'sifting through' the abuses to find the problems, we're so buried in abuses that we're simply dredging up something that looks almost real and pretending so that we can collectively exploit it. Systemically, and not just when it comes to race (though that's certainly the most prone to producing actual violence as an outcome). This is crazy stupid bad for us, as a population that live alongside one another, but we're doing it anyway because Drumpf I guess. (It's not Trump, it's virtue signalling, but that's another thread)

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

As I've said though, today in America, the weaponization of racism is the bigger and more serious threat. By far. What I'm arguing is that we've crossed a threshold -- we're not 'sifting through' the abuses to find the problems, we're so buried in abuses that we're simply dredging up something that looks almost real and pretending so that we can collectively exploit it. Systemically, and not just when it comes to race (though that's certainly the most prone to producing actual violence as an outcome). This is crazy stupid bad for us, as a population that live alongside one another, but we're doing it anyway because Drumpf I guess. (It's not Trump, it's virtue signalling, but that's another thread)

I'd also contend that there is no such existence of positive outcomes that directly or indirectly stem from anti-thought taboos established for the purpose of hopefully extinguishing returns of prejudicial practices to modern life. Not only that, anti-thought taboos have a tendency throughout history to be at the center of some of the most violent, murderous regimes and political groups of all time.

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I'd also contend that there is no such existence of positive outcomes that directly or indirectly stem from anti-thought taboos established for the purpose of hopefully extinguishing returns of prejudicial practices to modern life. Not only that, anti-thought taboos have a tendency throughout history to be at the center of some of the most violent, murderous regimes and political groups of all time.

I dunno about 'no such existence,' because I mean I do think for example that the workplace is more generally pleasant now that it's taboo to smack a woman's ass for no reason. It's not that benefits cannot be derived from dogmatic values -- it's just that there's a cost associated with those benefits, and the costs and benefits rarely exist in a state of equilibrium. Either it's obviously the right call, or it's really harmful. The issues we're juggling today (like, idunno, is your health insurance racist?) are generally really harmful, and we shouldn't be standing idly by while it happens.

edit: You totally did qualify that statement, so this is more strongly worded than it needs to be, but I'll just leave it anyway.

<Snipped quote by Dark Wind>

I dunno about 'no such existence,' because I mean I do think for example that the workplace is more generally pleasant now that it's taboo to smack a woman's ass for no reason. It's not that benefits cannot be derived from dogmatic values -- it's just that there's a cost associated with those benefits, and the costs and benefits rarely exist in a state of equilibrium. Either it's obviously the right call, or it's really harmful. The issues we're juggling today (like, idunno, is your health insurance racist?) are generally really harmful, and we shouldn't be standing idly by while it happens.

edit: You totally did qualify that statement, so this is more strongly worded than it needs to be, but I'll just leave it anyway.

I'm in absolute agreement with you regarding weaponized racism. And, I suppose I should have been more clear. Smacking a woman's ass for no reason, to me at least, falls under the law's jurisdiction. In my post, I made the mistake of assuming that specific circumstance being within the realm of common sense.

For clarity: No ass smacking in the office (unless consensual, hey, who am I to judge?). It's good that this is seen as wrong, because the elements of sexual assault seem for the most part clear under the guidelines of the law.

@Chrononaut I'm beyond not following this conversation, but mildly skimming. I saw you posting some statistics and someone correcting you that a site posted them was a bad site.

That doesn't mean the statistics are wrong in anyway...it could very well be that the site itself is attempting to use that data in a negative or hateful way. But yes...I posted statistics from three sources. Crime is a real problem...it's not racist to point it out. Sometimes a narrative will crumble under evidence, doesn't necessary mean the other extreme is correct either.

I do find it unfair that the developers then started insulting him personally. That's kinda shitty.

Agreed, though if anyone deserves to be insulted personally it's a man who, in front of hundreds of thousands of people (not sure on video viewcounts), decided to 'debate', despite his credentials previously only being making loud shouty noises and surreal jokes. That being said, I enjoy his videos.

And you make it seem like you don't think immigration is an important political issue and/or topic. It's not important to you?

I am not an immigrant. While I do express concerns about the abused or downtrodden (like those poor souls who are currently locked out of their colleges at the moment due to the temporary immigration ban), often to coworkers who spout anti-poor or anti-immigrant rhetoric, I can't say whether or not I care actually has any affect on the outcome. Immigration hasn't been a real issue for 200 years (though that hasn't stopped people from believing it was at the time), it's the current politicians and anti-immigration spouting bobbleheads that are the problem. They're the ones making it a problem, I'm more concerned about their ilk still being in office. Basically, I view it as a non-issue that was made an issue by idiocy. Really, it's more likely voting Trump into office is the seed that made this an issue, because guess what, this ban was only made possible because he's in office. If we had elected Hillary, it'd just have been a few idiots spouting shit about Muslims.

Hopefully everyone can get their head out of their asses and their fingers off their bare nipples before it becomes an actual issue, as in, a permanent immigration ban. Or, and this is the subject of many of my wet dreams, fire Trump, the guy spearheading this shit.

So yes, I care, but not enough to shout on twitter "FUCK YOU, TRUMP, YOUR MUMS A CUNT AND I FUCKED HER, THAT I DID"

@Chrononaut I'm beyond not following this conversation, but mildly skimming. I saw you posting some statistics and someone correcting you that a site posted them was a bad site.

That doesn't mean the statistics are wrong in anyway...it could very well be that the site itself is attempting to use that data in a negative or hateful way. But yes...I posted statistics from three sources. Crime is a real problem...it's not racist to point it out. Sometimes a narrative will crumble under evidence, doesn't necessary mean the other extreme is correct either.

You're right, because the statistics were taken from the Department of Justice, but the math the website did being suspect is my main concern. So, actual stats probably ok, some of the stuff I quoted suspect.

I think that Jontron was expressing his opinion and Destiny was just belittling him. And that Jontron needs to spend more time improving his debating skills in general (like Sky Williams). I don't think that he is a racist at all, just like Pewdiepie is not one as well. I just think that everyone just assumed that he was a racist because his views were different than the standard views, which we often see in our daily lives. The word racism/racist are losing their original meaning and being used as an emotional response. And as a way of derailing a debate or discussion. Just like the word nazism/nazi.

Immigration hasn't been a real issue for 200 years (though that hasn't stopped people from believing it was at the time), it's the current politicians and anti-immigration spouting bobbleheads that are the problem.

Legal immigration has not always been the problem unlike illegal immigration. There is a difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant. The difference is easy to notice if people are willing to open their eyes. A legal immigrant follows the pathway by living in America for three to five years, meet all the requirements, and pass the Naturalization Test. An illegal immigrant just has to cross over the Mexican-American border, overstay their visas, and other things that I cannot name at the moment. Those politicians and 'spouting bobbleheads' hate illegal immigration not legal immigration. I do not know how disliking illegal immigration makes you an anti-immigration.

I think that America should have the ability to counter illegal immigration not just blindly accept it because "we are the country of freedom" or "America is the land of immigrants so we have no choice but to accept them."

And it isn't racist if you dislike illegal immigration and want to send them back so they have the opportunity to do it the legal way.

Honestly, I don't think JonTron is racist. I think he's just really really dumb.

I think that Jontron was expressing his opinion and Destiny was just belittling him. And that Jontron needs to spend more time improving his debating skills in general (like Sky Williams). I don't think that he is a racist at all, just like Pewdiepie is not one as well. I just think that everyone just assumed that he was a racist because his views were different than the standard views, which we often see in our daily lives. The word racism/racist are losing their original meaning and being used as an emotional response. And as a way of derailing a debate or discussion. Just like the word nazism/nazi.

<Snipped quote by Chrononaut>
Legal immigration has not always been the problem unlike illegal immigration. There is a difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant. The difference is easy to notice if people are willing to open their eyes. A legal immigrant follows the pathway by living in America for three to five years, meet all the requirements, and pass the Naturalization Test. An illegal immigrant just has to cross over the Mexican-American border, overstay their visas, and other things that I cannot name at the moment. Those politicians and 'spouting bobbleheads' hate illegal immigration not legal immigration. I do not know how disliking illegal immigration makes you an anti-immigration.

I think that America should have the ability to counter illegal immigration not just blindly accept it because "we are the country of freedom" or "America is the land of immigrants so we have no choice but to accept them."

And it isn't racist if you dislike illegal immigration and want to send them back so they have the opportunity to do it the legal way.

We aren't dealing with illegal immigration though. We're nuclear bombing all immigration. Also, "illegal immigration" is a fancy word for "illegal Mexicans" in America. If we were to actually deal with illegal immigrants in a way that would lead to solving the problem, it would have to be to directly deal with Mexico itself. I don't see America acting to stop Mexican immigrants, I see America acting to stop all immigrants, including legal ones, from entering the country. We're even thinking of banning citizens who had illegal parents, but know no other life other than being an American, from being here. It's stupid.

And it's not even really a problem. If anything, illegal immigrants (mexicans) benefit our economy by allowing an easily exploitable resource of hopeful idiots to enter our country, thus granting most legal citizenry cheap food product through underpaid labor. Capitalism!

Whether or not you think that practice is morally right or wrong, it's basically a win for the legal citizen.

While we're talking wars we'll never win, how about that war on drugs? That seems to be working real well for us, too.

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

As I've said though, today in America, the weaponization of racism is the bigger and more serious threat. By far. What I'm arguing is that we've crossed a threshold -- we're not 'sifting through' the abuses to find the problems, we're so buried in abuses that we're simply dredging up something that looks almost real and pretending so that we can collectively exploit it. Systemically, and not just when it comes to race (though that's certainly the most prone to producing actual violence as an outcome). This is crazy stupid bad for us, as a population that live alongside one another, but we're doing it anyway because Drumpf I guess. (It's not Trump, it's virtue signalling, but that's another thread)

I dunno, I don't think that is the case to be honest. I'm just not convinced that that the abuse of the race card is so out of control compared to the potential shit that would be caused by aborting the taboo. Shit does happen, but it seems to be systematically contained.

I mean, Donnie did get elected. The people who beat up that white kid in Chicago are being tried on a hate crime. Blue lives matter seems to have defeated the Black Lives. It's not like the race-card issue has completely overhauled the system to where these things can't happen.

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I'd also contend that there is no such existence of positive outcomes that directly or indirectly stem from anti-thought taboos established for the purpose of hopefully extinguishing returns of prejudicial practices to modern life. Not only that, anti-thought taboos have a tendency throughout history to be at the center of some of the most violent, murderous regimes and political groups of all time.

I disagree. I think the history of systematic racism speaks for itself. All those holocausts and genocides, that's what we are trying to avoid. I think it is important to remember that we are still the same species that committed every horror in our history. It's completely possible that even Western countries could commit pogroms again.

It is true that taboos have been created in the past by evil regimes, but I don't think this means the creation of taboos are a slippery slope kind of thing. If a regime comes to power with a plan to commit systematic white genocide in a western country, not by the scary fear of pluralism thing white nationalists have, but by systematic violence, then I'll be proven wrong.

I think that Jontron was expressing his opinion and Destiny was just belittling him. And that Jontron needs to spend more time improving his debating skills in general (like Sky Williams). I don't think that he is a racist at all, just like Pewdiepie is not one as well. I just think that everyone just assumed that he was a racist because his views were different than the standard views, which we often see in our daily lives. The word racism/racist are losing their original meaning and being used as an emotional response. And as a way of derailing a debate or discussion. Just like the word nazism/nazi.

JonTron and Pewdiepie are two different situations though. Pewdiepie isn't a racist, he's just unfunny. JonTron actually insinuated some racist shit. I agree that we shouldn't let the word racism completely lose it's meaning, but that also means not going the other direction and thinking that racism requires explicit violence or slurs or whatever.

Also

I just think that everyone just assumed that he was a racist because his views were different than the standard views

when did the right wing get into post-modernism? i'm used to post modernism being something edgy left wing kids do. where the fuck this idea that it's not cool to call it racism, that it must be called a "non-standard" view come from? this is some weird shit. Is this the new political correctness?

Legal immigration has not always been the problem unlike illegal immigration. There is a difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant. The difference is easy to notice if people are willing to open their eyes. A legal immigrant follows the pathway by living in America for three to five years, meet all the requirements, and pass the Naturalization Test. An illegal immigrant just has to cross over the Mexican-American border, overstay their visas, and other things that I cannot name at the moment. Those politicians and 'spouting bobbleheads' hate illegal immigration not legal immigration. I do not know how disliking illegal immigration makes you an anti-immigration.

I think that America should have the ability to counter illegal immigration not just blindly accept it because "we are the country of freedom" or "America is the land of immigrants so we have no choice but to accept them."

And it isn't racist if you dislike illegal immigration and want to send them back so they have the opportunity to do it the legal way.

We do counter illegal immigration. This is political rhetoric more than anything, on both sides of the debate. Some places want to be able to sift through illegal immigrants so as to not cause unnecessary problems. I don't personally think that being against illegal immigration is an evil thing btw. I think it's a completely debatable subject that's been made stupid in the general discussion because both sides want to use it to gain political points.

That being said, the arguments about illegal immigration shouldn't be white genocide or shit like that, because that's just dumb. We can talk about taxes and wages and shit like that, but when we get into racial demographic BS (back to JonTron now), well... that's racist. Does that make him a Nazi? No. That makes him a Know-Nothing. But still a racist.

Just because somebody is racist in that way doesn't make them evil. Personally I just think JonTron is a dumbass. But just because they are not evil doesn't mean we must with-hold the racism term, since doing so would drain the term of all meaning. Just because some people have abused to term doesn't mean that racism no longer is a term at all.

i do have to say though...

I do not know how disliking illegal immigration makes you an anti-immigration.

It's easy to see how the two could be conflated because they often use the same talking points. The modern illegal immigrant freak-out is a replay of a lot of immigrant freak-outs in our past. Honestly, the immigrant question is one of the most consistent in our history. I'm from old American blood, have multiple ancestors who fought on the correct side of the American Revolution, and I bet you that I have ancestors somewhere back there that used the same anti-immigrant talking points against not only JonTron's ancestors (possibly), but most certainly Trump's ancestors.