Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

[Fabricant451]

For instance your avatar, where exactly is that from?

@SleepingSilence

Yoko Taro's Wet Dream

[pugbutter]

Soooo youre admitting I never said it but someone else in my thread did.....wow that seems to be a trend tonight.

@Dynamo Frokane

Sooo what you're saying is [thing which is laughably easy to prove you didn't say]. That's very interesting, and did you know that a sarcastic tone of voice is a suitable substitute for actually being able to argue?
^(and/or)
Since the sound of my own voice pleases me more than the sound of people disagreeing with me (seriously, how, like, dare they? UGH #smashthepatriarchy), a sudden whim has struck me: instead of responding to your argument, I will demand that you "find the place where I said" this or that, hoping that this will conveniently distract you from tearing me a new one.

Find the quote where I said that CD Projekt Red hiring was white nationalism, I'll wait.

@Dynamo Frokane

Physical evidence now? I'm still waiting for your incontrovertible evidence back in the mass effect thread.

@Dynamo Frokane

Find the quote where I called him a racist, I DARE you.

@Dynamo Frokane

I mean, all righty then.

[Dolerman]

@pugbutter This is just getting weird.

That's another thing, isn't it? If you're delusional enough to think that a Polish developer primarily hiring Polish employees is somehow "White Nationalism,"

@pugbutter

You made this claim, and in your last 2 posts you've made it clear you cant prove it.

It be very easy to find the quote if I actually said it, but I didn't so you created a strawman and its clear for everyone to see. You lost this one bud, stick to debating purple hippos.

[SleepingSilence]

@Fabricant451 Will look that up later. Thanks. ^-^ *crosses fingers its a joke video and not porn*

[pugbutter]

On one hand I'm feeling generous, but on the other, I think it's your turn this time:

I hold the opinion that you can hold some bigoted views that could be seen as pretty close to racism

@Dynamo Frokane

You should go on ahead and provide where I demonstrated these views. I dare you.

[Dolerman]

On one hand I'm feeling generous, but on the other, I think it's your turn this time:

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

You should go on ahead and provide where I demonstrated these views. I dare you.

@pugbutter

oh god, I didn't mean YOU I meant you as in reference to jontron, maybe I should have said 'one'

I can make this very clear, I don't think YOU pug butter are a white nationalist.

[Fabricant451]

@SleepingSilence It's actually from Nier: Automata, I was just being cheeky.

Get it? Cheeky? Cuz butts.

[pugbutter]

<Snipped quote by pugbutter>

oh god, I didn't mean YOU I meant you as in reference to jontron, maybe I should have said 'one'

I can make this very clear, I don't think YOU pug butter are a white nationalist.

@Dynamo Frokane

My bad, then! [@Ace of Farts] said that and I thought you were jumping in with her. Sorry about that.

This nullifies an awful lot of my posts in this thread, lol.

[SleepingSilence]

@Fabricant451 Ah. I guess I was the butt of another joke? :D ...I'll leave. Forgive me.

[Garattee]

@Garattee One day I'll make you like me, I swear. :P

@SleepingSilence

Don't hold your breath.

[Dion]

1 Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites, that's a fact.

2 What is so offensive about white people saying they'd like to preserve their demographic majority?

3 It's clear that whites are not allowed to speak up against their demographic um... oblivion.

4 Do you consider the european colonisation of Africa a bad thing? (Destiny replies that it's complicated). It's only complicated because it's whites.

5 When white people are aggressed against in their own nations by people that are not white, they are told constantly, check your privilege. You colonised us, you owe us this land blah blah blah.

6 We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land.

7 But if they assimilated they would enter the gene pool eventually...

Now apart from 7 none of these quotes are explicitly racist but it all points in the direction of white nationalist talking points. Now if you listen to the debate it seems like he has come upon this info fairly recently and possibly hasnt thought it through.

@Dynamo Frokane

I'll just start by saying I have absolutely no interest in JonTron, I don't think he is funny, and the only possible sentiment I have towards him is that I am glad that he is speaking up about his views because I hate it when people force their own ideology onto a youtuber without thinking (expecting a youtuber to vote a or b for some reason).

I just wanted to say that none of these 7 things are really racist not white supremacy related.

I don't know if wealthy blacks commit more crimes than blacks, but if it's true, then nothing is wrong with stating it. (That said this would go against, well, most criminological theories that exist and thus would be quite.. ground breaking.)

I don't think that there really is a white genocide or anything hysterically conspiracy theory-like like that but I think it's fair that white people (especially in Europe, I don't think Americans have any reason for concern) are concerned for the demographics of their countries. I don't think that equates white supremacy. I don't even think it really involves race more so than culture.

The colonisation thing isn't even worth commenting on, both answers (yes it's bad, no it's good) are idiotic because it's history. At that point in time it was considered normal, it was simply survival of the fittest and/or a colonizers world. Fact of the matter is that it happened, that is the single most important answer, whether it is good or not is up to the beholder and you will never be able to convince others that it's good or bad purely because both sides have adequate and good arguments to support their opinion.

long rant about history

You could consider it unfair that a technologically advanced people like the Europeans conquered tribes of 'relatively primitive' Africans and I would agree that it was a one sided battle all the way through, but there is a historical reasoning for this (the same reasoning you'll find as to why eastern-Europe is the shitty part of Europe (hell there's a reason we call Slavs Slavs, and it's not because we hired them for their services), why Northern-Europeans didn't colonize shit, and why we were so good at advancing technology.

Location location location. Nothing grows in Africa, to the point where you wonder every day if your crops will survive the night. There was no time to establish a working order of farmers -> artisans -> clergy -> nobles. There was a rough order but not on the same scale as in Europe. It's the same reason why Egypt thrived while the areas around them were just.. arid wastelands. Location.

Now in Europe, the climate is specifically capable of maintaining large populations, which means that you only need x amount of farmers to sustain y population. The numbers are in favor of the Europeans here more than the Africans, so the European population grew quicker than that in Africa, meaning that more people could become workers and not farmers, meaning that more goods were produced, etc.

This went on to the point where for Western European countries it became cheaper to buy wheat in Poland than to make it themselves (which was the turning point of economies in the west) which enabled farmers to produce goods solely for profit, not for sustenance (meaning we started growing money-crops).

The collective sum of all these favors in light of our position meant that we were more advanced and thus more capable of taking on primitives.

Similarly, nothing grew in Scandinavia (only Denmark, and the land there was barely workable) so they were similar to the Africans 'primitive' until they were more or less forcibly westernized by the Christians. Still, the lands were kinda bad, and there wasn't a large population, hence there was no real ability to colonize.

Whether colonization is good or bad is a question you can ask yourself, but something that is irrefutably historically true is that, in light of our capability AND the ethical views on colonization, it made sense, and will always make sense within that timeframe.

As for 5, well, yes. But I don't really think this is supremacy either. And it's hard to argue that it's not been true in the past. The only thing I would remark is that I'm not sure if it happens in the amounts he's trying to portray it as. I don't have any problems believing one way or the other. Still, is it really racist? Or even hinting at racism? Supremacy? Not at all.

6, well, maybe in Europe, we've done our part. As for America, lol, this is just objectively not true, but still not really something I consider racist. I wonder what his motivations are for thinking this.

7 is just a truth. The implication might hint at some supremacy thing, but I'd have to hear the full sentence for that. Still, if they assimilated, they would enter the gene pool... is that not true? It makes sense to me.

[Chrononaut]

I think the fact he views anything in terms of "this race is the best [at crime]" kind of outs him as a racist of some kind. To be fair, if I go to lets say Tacoma, WA and a bunch of black guys wearing blue/red along with black, I'm going to guess MAYBE bloods or crips and avoid them.

Edit: Also, he sure seems to know a lot of "black statistics". Almost as if he spent his days typing in "ARE BLACKS MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT CRIME" into google in his free time.

I doubt he typed "How many white serial killers are there" or "Crime statistics".


Here's a chart from the department of justice.

What you can take from this is whites and hispanics are just as (generally, more likely) to commit crimes against their own race (Though apparently blacks commit it equally to their race and whites)

Edit: It also means Blacks committed about 84% of the crimes against whites around 2012, soooooo

Actual article amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statist..

[Garattee]

@Buddha

not to quote others, but it really boils down to this

I do think JonTron is a racist. I don't think he hates black people though, those are two different things. I think he attributes things to race that are not attributable to race. That's what racism means really.

@Vilageidiotx

Now I'm not even sure he is a racist, but seeming to be that concerned about a white gene pool (arguing it'd be a bad thing if non whites entered it) among everything else does seem to carry some white nationalist intent. Also @Chrononaut that website you cited happens to be run by a real white nationalist, just saying if you don't trust biases from Kotaku, Jezebel or Huffpost, I would be skeptical of articles that lean on the right wing 'racial science' side.

[Chrononaut]

@Buddha

not to quote others, but it really boils down to this

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

Now I'm not even sure he is a racist, but seeming to be that concerned about a white gene pool (arguing it'd be a bad thing if non whites entered it) among everything else does seem to carry some white nationalist intent. Also @Chrononaut that website you cited happens to be run by a real white nationalist, just saying if you don't trust biases from Kotaku, Jezebel or Huffpost, I would be skeptical of articles that lean on the right wing 'racial science' side.

@Garattee

Fuck. Going to admit, I don't generally vet sources I look at, so if someone is what nationalistic that's a angle I'll miss.

[Vilageidiotx]

I'll just start by saying I have absolutely no interest in JonTron, I don't think he is funny, and the only possible sentiment I have towards him is that I am glad that he is speaking up about his views because I hate it when people force their own ideology onto a youtuber without thinking (expecting a youtuber to vote a or b for some reason).

@Buddha

I think the implicated thesis is what people are alarmed by, not the statements as they exist when pulled out of that argument. When you have somebody like Jon Tron who isn't stating explicitly what his thesis is, it's not surprising people are going to wonder what he is getting at considering that particular list of facts.

Now I'm not even sure he is a racist...

@Garattee

I think the emotion tied to the word "Racist" makes people uncomfortable using it correctly. He's a racist. Doesn't mean he wants to build camps. Doesn't mean he wants to murder people.

If it makes people feel any better, most people are somewhat racist. We here probably aren't as racist as Jon Tron, and Jon Tron isn't as racist as, say, that Spencer guy what got popped in the jaw for being such a super racist. There are levels. Like a wise man once said...

[BrokenPromise]

The problem with a buzzword like racism is that it has many different meanings, and people tend to think of the strongest use of the word. You could call JonTron racist for his views, sure. We could call Dynamo Frokane a racist for implying that JonTron might be racist, even if he never directly said it. I could be called a racist for calling Dynamo black, because I'm "seeing his color." Everyone's scared of being called a racist because people still think it's a term that only applies to the worst kind of people.

[Dion]

Oh, no, I'm definitely racist. I believe in tribalism. I also believe in making a conscious effort to overcome tribalism. Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge it exists within me, and that it can be useful.

So yes, racism can be useful at times (mostly historic) but more often than not isn't useful at all.

[BrokenPromise]

I realize it may have been a bit misleading when I said everyone is afraid of being called racist. Obviously there are always going to be exceptions to the rules. When I meant everyone, I meant "The vast majority of people I have come in contact with." Which does not include anomalies like you, those radio personalities, etc.

[Vilageidiotx]

The problem with a buzzword like racism is that it has many different meanings, and people tend to think of the strongest use of the word. You could call JonTron racist for his views, sure. We could call Dynamo Frokane a racist for implying that JonTron might be racist, even if he never directly said it. I could be called a racist for calling Dynamo black, because I'm "seeing his color." Everyone's scared of being called a racist because people still think it's a term that only applies to the worst kind of people.

@BrokenPromise

Acknowledging race is in itself not racist for the same reason that it isn't sexist to acknowledge another persons sex. The "-ism" comes in either exaggeration or plain old attributing what isn't attributable to race.

[BrokenPromise]

@Vilageidiotx I agree, but there is a collection of people who feel that what I mentioned was racism regardless. That's why the saying "I don't see color" has recently come up.