@TurboshitterI do honestly believe that the noble phantasm you're asking me about should be reworked to not include the horse and merely make it a mental pollution based noble phantasm that activates on pagan type characters when he is riding on a horse, or anything similar to one. He keeps it and he doesn't cross into rider territory. That's just the solution that immediately comes to mind.

@Turboshitter@vancexentan

I explained on my previous/most recent (not counting this) post a few things in your requests, such as why skills like Innocent Monster aren't really qualifiable in Lancer's case, and the nature of Lancer's third NP in regards to his own horse. I will also further clarify that the Horse isn't the NP, but that the NP only takes effect on this specific horse. The reason why the horse is important is because this NP isn't supposed to be as reliable as it is if summoned as a Rider.

As for Lancer's first NP, I've clarified that those who fail the Luck check get a pretty hefty Agility rank-down to symbolize them being on their knees; they're slower, but it's the possibility to escape is alot higher. As for the quantification of the Luck Check, stat checks in Fate are pretty ambiguous as a whole, so it's hard to find a number for them. It'd probably entail the luck check equivalent to its Noble Phantasm Rank, which is B.

<Snipped quote by Cu Chulainn>

Granted, but I feel like there should at least be some justification for it, even if it's just cosmetic. I mean, people in modern times don't actually believe Vlad Tepes was a vampire, and no one I know thinks Elizabeth Bathory was part dragon. Yet they have those skills regardless because at one point in time, whether past or future, that's how they were perceived by a large number of people. If the natives believed he was a god, then he should qualify, regardless of the truth or what people believe about him today (or even what his own people believed about him, as demonstrated with Vlad).

As for his horse, I'll grant that. It's unconventional for a Lancer to have a summoned mount, but it's happened before on rare occasions and without the horse the NP loses a key weakness. The NP itself also can't be modified or removed without gouging out a large part of Pedro's legend.

However, I will insist on Innocent Monster or a low, low rank in Divinity (whichever you feel is more appropriate or justified), as his connection to the sun god needs to be explained and quantified in some fashion rather than just being an informal attribute. Also, I believe his Disengage should be a bit lower, because as it is, he's better at making an escape than our resident Assassin, and that seems wonky.

<Snipped quote by Turboshitter>

I'd like to cite the more recent Fate/Apocrypha Lancer Vlad. He doesn't have Innocent Monster as a skill, or any skill that denotes to him being Dracula (with Demonic Defender of State only alluding to his real life viciousness as to how he defended Wallachia) and only one of his Noble Phantasms alludes to his more worldwide famous legend of being Dracula. This is in comparison to the Fate/Extra Vlad, who does indeed have Innocent Monster as a Skill but was summoned in more specific/special circumstances whereas Apocrypha!Vlad was summoned in a setting much closer to a traditional Holy Grail War.

Both Innocent Monster and Divinity seem inappropriate for him to have, although if it's necessary, I suppose a Divinity (False) rank might work, similarly to how Imperial Privilege at a high rank can make someone insist they're a god.

@vancexentan@Turboshitter@1Charak2

How does an unranked skill in Divinity (False) sound? I can probably think of a more interesting name, by the way. It'll work similarly to Karna's Uncrowned Arms Mastership (which is also unranked) where until his true name is revealed, he appears to be qualified as a Divine Spirit for all effects that would detect such. (so basically a pseudo Divinity A.)

@TurboshitterSpeaking of Rider have we heard anything from the person who was making rider?

• increase her rank in Charisma, or some other relevant skill
• increase one or two of her stats, but not all of them
• increase Clarent to Rank B (which we've already done), and lower her stats to their normal values; then, she can invoke Clarent for a temporary Rank Up in short bursts as per its unlocked effects (the effect would need to be activated and would last only a short while since the fame boost is only partial)

@Turboshitter@vancexentan

Here is Lancer with the modifications requested.

I'm still feeling iffy about how Lancer requires a skill to further state that he's not actually a god. He never confirmed or denied that he was a God when reading back in his lifetime (or at least, it wasn't written that he did or did not). Innocent Monster also implies that his reputation as the Sun God caused his whole reputation to change in the public eye. We can't say his cruelty grants him Innocent Monster since Sadistic Constitution already does that, too. I'd just rather Lancer not have such a skill, especially in line with how Mana Burst (Flames) served as a good explanation to how he can barely access the authority of the Divine - He draws upon the power of the Aztec Divine Spirits, not his own. Additionally, he pretty much has what amounts to a whopping 6 Personal Skills if we were being real with Lancer's Riding skill.

Adding on to the reason why I don't think an extra skill is necessary, remember that these skills would provide the user with benefits. Lancer would basically have too much beneficial skills. This goes especially in line with Divinity since it has limitless applications from breaking through protection such as Protection of the Faith or Enlightenment of the Fig Tree, to giving the Servant the ability to hurt Achilles without aiming for his heel.

Basically, he already has alot of skills as is, as well as one that makes enough sense to explain where he gets the things his association with the Sun God nets him. Giving him Innocent Monster, or especially Divinity adds more power to an already pretty strong Servant, and I'd rather not do that, so if it's still under negotiation, I'd rather not have it necessary for him to have an extra skill that just says "oh he's not a god" when he already has a few that already do.

Anyway, here's Wonderwall.

Lancero Versión Dos [+]

Lancer

"This world is ours to explore, conquer, and pillage as we see fit."

True Name: Pedro de Alvarado, The Red Sun

Master: Pending.

Gender: Male

Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Height/Weight: 183 cm / 77 kg

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Stats

STR: B
END: C+
AGI: B
MGI: C
LCK: A

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Class Skills

Magic Resistance: A+

Power to neutralize the effects of Magecraft aimed against oneself. At this level, all spells below A-rank are nullified, making the Servant virtually untouchable to modern Magi. With this level of defense against sorcery, it would scarcely be an exaggeration to term the Servant a "Magus Killer". Hailing from well past the Age of Gods, Lancer would normally sport only a D or, at most, C ranking in this Skill. However, reflecting the legend of him having been divinely blessed by the Virgin Mary to overcome the magic of the great sorcerer chieftain Tecun Uman, Lancer's resistance has been vastly increased to that of an A-rank. A plus correction is applied against spells originating from the Mesoamerican region, further amplifying Lancer's already immense resistance.

Riding: A

All vehicles and all creatures but those of Phantasmal Beast and Divine Beast-rank can be used as mounts. This rank is high enough to have aptitude for the Rider Class. A fitting talent for a legendary Conquistador. Despite this not normally being a class skill for Lancers, Pedro's most famous battle was carried out on horseback, so he naturally possesses this skill at an A - rank.

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Personal Skills

Conquistador: B

The Skill of one who had conquered the uncharted lands at the end of their voyages during the Age of Exploration. In Spanish, it means "conqueror". Denotes the ability of invading, ruling, pillaging, and enslaving an undiscovered land. Grants Lancer a rank-up to all parameters while in enemy territory. As such conquests were largely driven by a desire to plunder the wealth of foreign civilizations, this bonus also applies against opponents with the "Golden Rule" Skill. Being one of the first to lead efforts in colonizing the New World alongside the likes of Cortes and Pizarro, Lancer naturally wields a high rank in this Skill.

Mana Burst (Flames): D+

Indicates an increase in performance through infusing one's weapons or body with magical energy and immediately expelling it. Simply put, recreating the effects of a jet-burst through expending vast amounts of magical energy. In Lancer's case, magical energy unleashed through this Skill takes on an effect reminiscent of blazing flames. However, as this Skill's rank is rather low it produces only a weak yet dazzling conflagration, more suitable for showmanship then truly effective in combat. Fascinated by his platinum blond hair and pale skin, native Aztecs referred to Lancer as a human avatar of their sun god Tonatiuh. While in truth he hasn't even a drop of godly blood in his ancestry, that association with a Divine Spirit of the sun has allowed Lancer to call upon a pale imitation of its celestial fire as his own. In line with the Aztec belief that the sun was nourished by human sacrifice, Lancer can also strengthen the flames produced by this Skill by offering them some of his own blood. Upon doing so, the resulting blaze is greatly stoked and the effective performance of this Skill rises to B-rank. Of course, since these flames are rather hungry, Lancer must be careful not to offer too much of his blood at once, lest they grow to consume his spiritual core entirely.

False Authority Over The Sun: -

A personal skill of Lancer that represents his association with the sun god Tonatiuh. Unless Lancer's true name is revealed to the person, Lancer appears as if he has the Divinity skill at A - rank. As he does not possess the aptitude to be a true Divine Spirit, and is merely "borrowing" his power from the belief that he otherwise is one, this skill does not grant him the actual benefits of the Divinity skill.

Sadistic Constitution: C

A Skill that augments one's aggression in battle, raising attack power at the cost of sealing defensive abilities. While appearing to be a favorable Skill, the Servant's abusive disposition grows as battle rages on, abandoning their usual composure. This can be seen as only a step short of the Skill driving Berserkers to sink into madness. The more one attacks, the stronger one becomes, but on the other hand, one's defensive abilities drop. Although renowned for his skill as a soldier, Lancer is remembered more for his immense cruelty against the native Aztecs- cutting a bloody swath of slavery, massacres and brutality across the New World. Even amidst the heartless rapacity of his fellow Conquistadors, Lancer's sheer greed and bloodthirst stood head and shoulders above all.

Disengage: B-

The ability to break away from battle and return to allied territory after an engagement. At this rank, Lancer can usually retreat from combat with little chance of failing. Also has the effect of returning an unfavorable battle to the "first turn", along with the status of all combatants. However, as a tactical mind is needed to reap the full benefits of this Skill, it loses effectiveness the more Lancer succumbs to the effects of his Sadistic Constitution. After Lancer's wholesale massacre of the Aztec nobles, rebellion spread like wildfire across the capital city of Tenochtitlán- forcing Lancer and his men into swift retreat. First they attempted to sneak quietly out of the city under cover of darkness, but were discovered by the Aztecs. Fierce fighting erupted and Lancer, who led the rear-guard action, narrowly escaped through a spectacular leap across a canal that became known as the "Salto de Alvarado," a feat that would easily be crystallized a Noble Phantasm had Lancer been summoned into the Rider class.

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Noble Phantasms

In addition to his various Noble Phantasms, Lancer is also summoned with his trusty white warhorse clad in black plate bardings, Intrépido. While this horse is nothing near the likes of a mount summonable by a Rider-class servant, it is still a horse trained for battle nonetheless. Lancer also has in his possession an ornate Aztec ritual knife which he uses to utilize his Mana Burst (Flames) skill when his spear is unavailable. While it is in no means a weapon meant for combat, being extensively lathered in his supposedly divine blood caused this knife to barely be the equivalent of an E-Ranked Mystic Code. A suitable, albeit very lackluster back-up if anything were to happen to Lancer's spear.

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Lanza Virgen Santa
Blessing of the Holy Maiden
Type: Anti-Team, Anti-Evil
Rank: B
Range: 1 - 50
Maximum Number of Targets: 20

In battle against the legendary Mayan chieftain Tecun Uman, it was alleged that Lancer triumphed thanks to divine blessing from a powerful maiden commonly associated with the Virgin Mary, sparing him from the sorceries cast by his foe. That legend has been materialized into a long, bladed spear Lancer carries, inscribed with a relief image of the Virgin Mary and seeming to radiate a gentle divine light.

Passively, it grants Lancer a nigh-impregnable defense against Magecraft through raising his Magic Resistance rank to A. By invoking the True Name and plunging the spear's tip into the ground, a Bounded Field enforcing the authority of the Virgin Mary can be erected across the battlefield for 100 units of magical energy. The effects of this Bounded Field are twofold. Firstly, a powerful spiritual pressure is brought down upon anyone harboring hostile intentions against Lancer. Those without a resistance to mental interference at rank B or higher must pass a Luck check at this point or else have their Agility suffer a severe Rank-Down, as if they were forced on their knees. Secondly, familiars resembling mankind's stereotypical depiction of angels will begin manifesting in the Bounded Field to defend Lancer for 20 turns, attacking his enemies with a viciousness belying their delicate appearances.

As a weapon closely tied to divinity it also deals greater damage against beings of the "unholy" attribute, though this was not an ability Lancer ever called upon in life. Should Lancer ever lose this spear, whether it be from it being somehow destroyed or otherwise permanently lost to Lancer's possession, Lancer's Magic Resistance and Luck both suffer a Rank-Down to a measly D - Rank.
_{blessed weapons are pretty hard to break, please don't break this spear GM-senpai}

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Ōllin Tōnatiuhrm
The Setting Sun Crowns My Glory
Type: Anti-Army, Anti-Mystery
Rank: A+
Range: 10 - 75
Maximum Number of Targets: 500

A Noble Phantasm crowning Lancer's identification with the sun god Tonatiuh, as well as his destruction by fire of Aztec holy temples and other sacred sites. Invoking its True Name and expending 400 units of magical energy, Lancer brandishes his holy spear pointing to the sky above his head. Tendrils of solar fire begin to gather at the point of Lancer's spear, forming a massive sphere of pure burning light reminiscent of a second sun that illuminates the battlefield for several miles. Lancer then finishes his attack by slashing downwards with his sword, flinging the engorged ball of flames at his opponents like a celestial wrecking ball. The orb transforms as it flies through the air, evoking the imagery of a giant flaming eagle swooping down on the battleground. This eagle, a sacred animal of the sun in Aztec myth, then lets loose a piercing cry before ramming into the ground and exploding in a vast conflagration- with enough destructive force to reduce an entire battlefield to ash.

In addition to sheer destructive power rivaling some of the strongest Noble Phantasms such as Balmung and Galatine, this attack also alludes to the Aztec belief that the sun heralded the passing of ages. In Aztec mythology, Tonatiuh was in fact the fifth sun to take its place overlooking creation, after the fourth sun was expelled from the sky. Each sun was a deity with its own cosmic era, and Tonatiuh was merely the god reigning over the present age of mankind. Combined with Lancer's own role as one who figuratively "set the sun" upon the New World by bringing forth an age of discovery, this Noble Phantasm embodies the concept of "superseding eras". As such, it holds a great conceptual advantage against legends and Heroic Spirits tied to an age preceding Lancer's own. On the other hand, its power is much weakened against Heroic Spirits that originated from an era after Lancer, making this attribute a double-edged sword of sorts.

An ersatz divine authority borrowed from the sun god's feat of enlightening the world. However, as Lancer is merely a mortal he naturally cannot tap into the true power of a divine miracle. As such this Noble Phantasm's power is a mere imperfect recreation of what Tonatiuh himself would wield- yet more then enough to vanquish most foes. Much like his regular Mana Burst (Flames) Skill, Lancer can further amplify the destructive power of this Noble Phantasm by sacrificing some of his blood to fuel it. Although, the amount of blood required to make a noticeable difference would risk leaving Lancer unconscious from anemia.

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Centauro Fantasma
Man and Beast As One
Type: Anti-Mind
Rank: C
Range: 1 - 30
Maximum Number of Targets: -

The Mesoamerican forces which Lancer fought against had no concept of horses or other beasts of burden, so his mounted forces appeared to them as none other then a horde of monstrous centaurs. When the warrior-chieftain Tecun Uman managed to slay Lancer's steed in battle, he briefly let down his guard- believing Lancer himself to have fallen with it. That moment was all Lancer needed, rising back to his feet and dealing Tecun a mortal wound with his spear.

This Noble Phantasm could only manifest on Intrépido. While atop his horse, an illusion enshrouds Lancer's body- warping his image into that of a phantasmal hybrid between man and beast. Because of this, it becomes difficult to target Lancer effectively- as what appear to be lethal blows may in fact only kill his mount while Lancer himself survives unscathed.

However, this illusion is maintained only so long as Lancer remains on his steed, dissipating instantly if he is knocked off or dismounts. If he is forcibly knocked off, then the secondary effect of this Noble Phantasm unveils itself. Whoever parted Lancer from his steed will be stricken with a "confusion" status ailment, leaving them paralyzed for several turns. This gives Lancer the time to swiftly remount his steed and escape, or, if possible, deliver a deciding counter-attack to his stunned foe. As a form of mental interference, those with Skills guarding against attacks on the mind at rank C or higher will be able to see through Lancer's illusion.

Incidentally, killing Intrépido will permanently remove this Noble Phantasm from Lancer's possession for the remainder of the Holy Grail War, unless he finds some way to get his horse back again. Had Lancer been summoned as a Rider, this Noble Phantasm would have been able to take effect on any other equine steed, and perhaps even other suitable mounts...

@1Charak2

Poison sounds nice...

until you forgrt your weapon is poisoned and cut open a wound in your hand so your Mana Burst (Flame) can actually do some noticable damage