Sage said
No no no no.
These guns don't work like earth guns either. Remember what you quoted from the OOC OP? How they use a fire core's energy to propel a bullet forward? How HARD could that be to make? I merely said that it wasn't shooting little bolts of fire, but rather, used the explosive energy of that fire to shoot the ballistic rounds. It's not that hard. Plasma rifles are the regular norm, and they are MUCH harder to make since they require core fusion to create plasma. On top of that, if you found a fire core, put it in a waterbottle, filled it up with bullets on top, and then activated bursts of the fire core's energy...Oh no! An assault rifle!

The fire core propulsion only removes the one of simplest of the gun's moving parts and removes the explosiveness of bullets which are lying around. The hard part is getting the bullets in place. If you stick bullets in a tube and then have a controlled explosion in the bottom, you do not get an assault rifle. You instead get something which fires a handful of bullets all at once with no control. To deliver bullets in any weapon which takes more than one bullet per barrel needs some sort of feed, which generally requires well-crafted mechanisms. In manual guns, you still need a good mechanism to move the next bullet in place or it will get jammed. In semi-automatic and automatic weapons that mechanism also needs another mechanism to operate it (typically powered by the exhaust of the previous shot). These mechanisms are non-trivial. Their complexity could perhaps be comparable to a combustion engine, with all its rapidly moving parts. In no way beyond the technological capabilities of this world, but not readily available to just anyone, especially in a quarantined wasteland.

A weapon using a core, on the other hand, needs very minimal moving parts and cores can be found in just about everything, so many core weapons would be more readily available than ballistic firearms. Yes, fancy cores like plasma are not readily available, but lightning and fire and land are some of the most common cores around and could still make pretty decent weapons.

In short, it is quite easy to make a one-shot ballistic firearm, especially using cores to replace chemistry and ignition. But anything which fires more than one shot without reloading is much harder.


But these are gangs, not engineers. They wouldn't build their own guns. Like what Anriu said, they would be supplied their guns by gun dealers, which would have military connections. Unlike what Anriu said, after the apocalypse getting new guns would be all the more difficult because of the quarantine, martial law and destroyed economy. But this is a gang. They would have had stockpiles beforehand, then take weapons from other gangs. Same goes for the Golden Mercenaries, expect their pre-apocalypse connections were probably more legitimate than those of any gangs like the Blood Saints.

BBeast said
The fire core propulsion only removes the one of simplest of the gun's moving parts and removes the explosiveness of bullets which are lying around. The hard part is getting the bullets in place. If you stick bullets in a tube and then have a controlled explosion in the bottom, you do not get an assault rifle. You instead get something which fires a handful of bullets all at once with no control. To deliver bullets in any weapon which takes more than one bullet per barrel needs some sort of feed, which generally requires well-crafted mechanisms. In manual guns, you still need a good mechanism to move the next bullet in place or it will get jammed. In semi-automatic and automatic weapons that mechanism also needs another mechanism to operate it (typically powered by the exhaust of the previous shot). These mechanisms are non-trivial. Their complexity could perhaps be comparable to a combustion engine, with all its rapidly moving parts. In no way beyond the technological capabilities of this world, but not readily available to just anyone, especially in a quarantined wasteland.A weapon using a core, on the other hand, needs very minimal moving parts and cores can be found in just about everything, so many core weapons would be more readily available than ballistic firearms. Yes, fancy cores like plasma are not readily available, but lightning and fire and land are some of the most common cores around and could still make pretty decent weapons.In short, it is quite easy to make a one-shot ballistic firearm, especially using cores to replace chemistry and ignition. But anything which fires more than one shot without reloading is much harder. But these are gangs, not engineers. They wouldn't build their own guns. Like what Anriu said, they would be supplied their guns by gun dealers, which would have military connections. Unlike what Anriu said, after the apocalypse getting new guns would be all the more difficult because of the quarantine, martial law and destroyed economy. But this is a gang. They would have had stockpiles beforehand, then take weapons from other gangs. Same goes for the Golden Mercenaries, expect their pre-apocalypse connections were probably more legitimate than those of any gangs like the Blood Saints.

I pretty much second all of this.

Edit:

Skai said
Also, I don't know if I went into enough depth in her reaction to Iktomi's slaughtering, but I did write, I apologize if I didn't make it obvious that she hadn't expected so much power from Iktomi. I was going to make a separate post about her thoughts on it after all the chaos was over and she could be alone and think.

Extremely reasonable. I did notice the lack of emotion in Arrianna as well, this statement clears that up rather nicely, thank you.

I agree with this:

Basic Core weaponry (I.E. Wind cannon) < Blood Saints Ballistic Assault Rifles < Actual, Up-To-Military-Standards Rifles (I.E Plasma Rifles)

This Gang has a LOT of money and resources. Who says they couldn't have purchased these guns? Hm?

I thought you were arguing against the existence of these guns, but you seem to be arguing their complexity. Why can I not say that these Blood Saints, which, keep in mind, have been around since before the apocalypse, had the resources to buy some capable weaponry? Of course, they couldn't try to get their hands on Plasma Rifles, because even the ballistic rifles are super rare to find. But still, I don't see it fit to deem it utterly impossible and lore-breaking for them to own these weapons. If anything, I might have expected you to question the Golden Mercenaries possession of "grenade launchers", to which I would say "they're tweaked landscaping explosives." Basically, I could answer anything with that - "it's a makeshift, crude model." Sure, making the rifle is not as easy as the water bottle example, but by the standards of difficulty common the engineers of our lore, it isn't THAT hard either.

EIther way, I'll concede that the sudden, unexplained rifles was left a bit undercooked. I should have expanded on the weaponry more, but I wasn't expecting Zephyr to throw a big fuss about it.

IMO, Iktomi's OP'ness is also a bit more pressing. Lost, looking back, it may be a BIT much as Anriu said. But we discussed the nature and direction your character is to go.

I'll just state it here, Lost is a very important part of this RP and has been part of it since Sanctuary was first a thing, so I entrusted him with the privilege to use Iktomi as a plot device. How and when and why? I won't spoil, but don't just consider him a PC who got away with OP antics. Keep in mind that Iktomi has been feeding. But here's what I'll say to moderate:

-His threads should not be able to form any blade that can outmatch a steel blade. They can tear flesh, cut things, but when it comes to a blade on blade duel? Unless the other bladesmen is super nooby, his silk blade will not be cutting through any steel.

UNLESS: He uses acidic venom, which must take a good amount of time to prepare while IDLE.

-He should feel more fatigue. Just to even it out, and the fatigue should be noticable. From now on, understand this: No matter HOW badass or iron-willed your character is, if they exert him/herself to a reasonable extent, it MUST be shown physically (I.e. coughing, limping, light headedness, SOMETHING). Looking back, I would say that after the courtyard scene, Iktomi would be at abou 50% spirit. He's GOTTA at least be breathing heavily.

-Sorry for this, brothah, but no more unmoderated flying and levitating. It's a very common thing to do for powers in which something is manipulated - you [unintentionally/unknowingly] turn it into a vessel for using almost every other power. I'm going to have to say that the whole flight to the courtyard would drain him about 25% spirit. Especially with someone on board. I would understand if he himself turned to silk and became weightless, but he's carrying himself. Sure a quick, high jumping levitation-like evasive maneuver is acceptable, but his power shouldn't allow him to turn into a flying character, nah mean?

I don't really have to say this, Lost knows how shit goes down, we just got carried away a bit.

Ok.

Sage mode deactivated. Let's move on.

EDIT: I didn't see Sage's response. So imma hide mine :P

Kish, you should know that he will show it. Hes just running on adrenaline, and will express it when he's killed the gang's boss. I wouldnt start pointing those things out until after youve read the whole collab. Unfortunately, we havent had time to work on it lately.

I throw my hat in with the more posts and boobs guys :P

Both of these things please me.

Let it be known that BBeast is my favorite person as of now.

Anyway, my argument isn't about the existence of any advanced weaponry, but of it's availability to a WRECKED city that only allows authorized military personnel in and out. The norm for weaponry before the Void Opening was flintlock and revolving chambered weapons, or nonlethal core-based weapons. In the course of one year, after a massive cataclysm, a huge governmental shift, and likely a gargantuan economic shit, the mass-production of ANYTHING would be hard to do. Even if the military suddenly thought up automatics, plasma rifles, or whatever,it would be difficult to make enough for all their soldiers and then lose them to a bunch of street gangs. If the street gangs made the shit up themselves, it'd be pretty crazy to be up against that and not be freaked the fuck out (see "Legolas with a sniper" example; orcs would be shitting themselves).

As far as technological advancement in general goes, the evolution of firearms from one-shot, black powder guns to magazine-using, full-auto rifles took hundreds of years. That whole time, we WERE in war. Also, the technology in Aeros was massively inflated by cores, just as modern tech has been inflated by fossil fuels. If suddenly we ran out of oil and coal, or if Aeros ran out of cores, everything would go to complete shit. You can't just credit the fast development of shit to "well all their stuff is futuristic, so it wouldn't take much to catch up weaponry". The only reason everything is so advanced is because of the aid of CORES.

The Red Zephyr said Let it be known that BBeast is my favorite person as of now.

From what I've seen of you this is a huge compliment. Thank you.

But I will say that modern firearms are not that unlikely to be around and prevalent (if we gloss over a little of the OP, which I shall cover soon). As Sage said, we have lots of monsters and there's bound to be some insurgent/terrorist group around somewhere, so weapons would not have gone neglected. Of course, the kinds of weapons you, Zeph, mentioned would have been the most common, but as the military of Aeros have deep pockets and a desire for the latest tech they would fund not only the development but also the production of modern firearms. The only way for a gang to get their hands on such weapons would be by smuggling them out of the army, but a large enough group (such as the Blood Saints) would be quite capable of doing that. You might bring up the concern of finite ammo, but bullets are used in simpler weapons and most of the 'modern' weapons would probably be compatible with those bullets. The fact that bullets are propelled by cores here means that only the actual bullet part is needed, so bullets would not have changed much since the flint-lock days.

The important part which you are concerned about (in respect to guns) is why there are so many of them. To reiterate, the military of Aeros have deep pockets and a desire for the latest tech. As such, the military would mostly be well equipped by the time the cataclysm happens, and so would anyone leaching weapons from them.



Rereading the OP, I can see the source of my confusion from before in regard to the nature of firearms. The OP has two partially-contradicting statements about firearms. I can see Zephyr's concern too.

*The weaponry of Leginia, however, is not as modern. The era of peace that the council brought resulted in an end to the thirst for militaristic advancement. Guns are rare, and function based off cores (most will focus on using a Fire Core to project forward a bullet).
...
-Core Firearms (rifles/pistols): Powered by one of five elemental cores: fire, water, lightning, land, or wind. Water rifles are used by fire fighters. Fire, lightning, and land core rifles are used by authorities/military and fire rounds of the element. Land core rifles shoot strong metals rather than burts of fire or lightning. Wind rifles are usually used in riot control as they have deal no fatal damage, but can create a very strong force by lanching immense gusts of wind.

In the first part, it says they fire bullets. In the second part, however, it instead says they fire elements. And, also, it does say 'guns are rare', and that there was 'an end to the thirst for militaristic advancement'. Those two statements have been mostly ignored IC. This ignoring can be rationalised, but it would not be right to let it go unnoticed or let it continue too much.

In the collab, I at least would have expected there to be some mention of core weapons in use if the OP had been at all regarded. I don't see how they didn't have lightning or fire guns. As we've gone over, the use of the modern guns in that battle can be rationalised and thus doesn't need removal, but for future posts we really should heed the background that has been given.


P.S. Sage, I have a PM for you.

Yeah, most people having fancy core-based weapons has bugged me a lot as well, but I've put up with it since one of my characters had those in the original. However, my CURRENT character is founded on the idea of us not having advanced lethal weaponry. He is a captain in the Continental Army that has two apparently out-dated pistols and a sword. Giving him strength and agility was my idea of setting up awesome melee fights. His name should be retconned to Weston McUseless.

The collab basically implies that everything from here out will be Max Payne gun battles unless you have powers that make bullets obsolete. Having a fancy wind cannon, a diamond dust chainsaw, a rapier, or a Gandalf staff doesn't really help you against a bunch of dudes spraying bullets. People who arent totally OP now have to participate in basic gunfights to fight people.

And BBeast, my issue with this isn't solely based on "what's in the OP" but what Kish and I have discussed and agreed on in the past as well. We talked about the weapon tech being akin to the game DIshonored. For the most part, you have single-shot weapons and MAYBE revolver-type ones, but combat is largely with melee. Of course you have the fancy shit, but it wouldn't really be the norm.

ALSO, this whole issue is why we shouldn't do these ridiculously large collabs. Most of it would be fine as standalone posts, since Kish wasn't part of all of Arianna's and Ik's actions. Having that huge lump makes any possible edits a huge chore.

EIther way, I'll concede that the sudden, unexplained rifles was left a bit undercooked. I should have expanded on the weaponry more, but I wasn't expecting Zephyr to throw a big fuss about it.

You can always expect me to throw a fuss about things that make no sense. Apparently my job here is "voice of reason" and it's really irritating that I have to be. Like REALLY irritating.

Ok Zeph, I can literally fix this in the next post with one sentence so calm down a bit. Your flintlocks could easily be military grade (I.e core driven lethal versus core powered lethal ballistic) and be stronger than any assault rifle. Modern armor has been around for a long time even without militaristic needs (kinetic sheids, advanced tech armor). Bullet versus armor? Ha! That's cute. Plasma round versus armor? Not as safe. Keep that in mind. Literally at this point, after thinking, the only problem is the fact that Kisheto and Hector got wounded. So I'll fix that and make it to where aan wearing modern armor can charge a man using a ballistic assault rifle and not worry about shit. But just chill out and let me fix it, we got the point.

EDIT: and by fix it, I mean in my next post. Unless I get a majority opinion to edit the collab which I wouldn't mind doing.

guess i'll need some weapons for my char then. Also, that huge text wall of china is kinda off putting

Sage said
Ok Zeph, I can literally fix this in the next post with one sentence so calm down a bit. Your flintlocks could easily be military grade (I.e core driven lethal versus core powered lethal ballistic) and be stronger than any assault rifle. Modern armor has been around for a long time even without militaristic needs (kinetic sheids, advanced tech armor). Bullet versus armor? Ha! That's cute. Plasma round versus armor? Not as safe. Keep that in mind. Literally at this point, after thinking, the only problem is the fact that Kisheto and Hector got wounded. So I'll fix that and make it to where aan wearing modern armor can charge a man using a ballistic assault rifle and not worry about shit. But just chill out and let me fix it, we got the point.EDIT: and by fix it, I mean in my next post. Unless I get a majority opinion to edit the collab which I wouldn't mind doing.

I am literally totally fine now, since my cries are not upon deaf ears. I'm fine with playing with the weapons and tech a bit, but it needs to be defined. I could retcon Weston's weapons into better stuff (which would happen eventually, but after Act 1). I expected things to get really fancy later, but we are still in Fucktown and the (hopefully not stupid) military is the mayor.

Bonus for anyone who gets what i just referenced.

GreenGoat said
guess i'll need some weapons for my char then. Also, that huge text wall of china is kinda off putting

Text wall of china lmao gonna use that some day

And yeah ik, we gotta stop. Collab tendencies are like drug habits

Will post tonight by the way. I have a lot of it done, it just depends on whether I'll be able to work on it before or after work.

Sage said
Text wall of china lmao gonna use that some dayAnd yeah ik, we gotta stop. Collab tendencies are like drug habits

It isn't neccessarily collabs that are the problem, it is the text walls they produce xD.

Maybe you could do some trimming?

We'll try to post the next half of the collab in sections, because obviously you guys cant handle a little heavy reading.

Don't get an attitude Skai

There must be peace and love and koolaid

Yay koolaid!

Skai said
We'll try to post the next half of the collab in sections, because obviously you guys cant handle a little heavy reading.

I don't have issues with heavy reading, I just don't want to discourage those who do. Also, it's a matter of common sense and continued activity. That last collab could have just been Kish posts and collabs between you and Lost (maybe one tri-player collab), and ended up being AT LEAST five posts.