providr.com/teens-killed-robbing-hous…
Three teenagers, ages 18, 17, and 16 respectively broke into someone's home to rob them. After discovering them in the act and 'exchanging words,' the home-owner gunned all three boys down. Thoughts?

The article says it was the home owners son, probably a teenager himself. Jittery situation, easy to see it going south. It is too bad but these kids were in his house and armed.

providr.com/teens-killed-robbing-hous…
Three teenagers, ages 18, 17, and 16 respectively broke into someone's home to rob them. After discovering them in the act and 'exchanging words,' the home-owner gunned all three boys down. Thoughts?

There isn't much detail so it's hard for me to make a definitive statement with so few facts. Ultimately I would say that if 'Zach' had a reasonable fear that his life was in danger at the moment he pulled the trigger than it was a justified killing.

@Kratesis

My point being that all countries with universal healthcare systems face these challenges to a greater or lesser extent. I know the current administration doesn't exactly inspire confidence but you can do it! I believe in you USA! The idea that the greatest superpower in the history of the world cant confront the horrors of regional diversity in order to provide healthcare to its citizens is ludicrous.

The VA serves 8.92 million veterans, and accounts for $186.5 billion, or about 5% of the total federal budget give-or-take. That's about half the budget of Medicaid (70 million enrolled), and about a third the budget of Medicare (57 million enrolled). In other words, spending per person, you get Medicare ($1k/person), then Medicaid ($5,257/person), then the VA at a whopping $20,722/person, or four times more spent on administrating that cost than on the nearest similar program.

And despite that, VA wait times are outlandish (I tore my shoulder in May of 2016 -- still waiting), outcomes are terrible (I lost my leg over a torn meniscus, and others have it worse), satisfaction is lower than a sagging ant tit (and does that surprise anybody?). All this is caused by many things, like the sheer size of the country and the distribution of veterans within it, but it's also because bureaucracy always trends towards this result. It's also because private practice attracts more (and better) healthcare providers. It's also because US federal employees are practically immune from firing -- or they were, up until Trump signed the VA accountability act, so we'll see how much that helps.

It's also because honestly no, we can't handle it. We're political children more concerned with soundbites than policy, and we'll vote for anybody who says the right thing. Know who was in charge of the VA, until he ran for president? I'll give you a hint, he's the one proposing universal healthcare. Why the fuck would we listen to him?

It's also because honestly no, we can't handle it. We're political children more concerned with soundbites than policy, and we'll vote for anybody who says the right thing.

Not really sure where to go from there.

We're political children more concerned with soundbites than policy.

It's also because honestly no, we can't handle it. We're political children more concerned with soundbites than policy, and we'll vote for anybody who says the right thing. Know who was in charge of the VA, until he ran for president? I'll give you a hint, he's the one proposing universal healthcare. Why the fuck would we listen to him?

If you mean people hear what they want to hear, I agree. They want to be coddled and agreed with. However under president Obama, and presumably under Bernie Sanders the waiting days of the VA went down 119 days between 2014 and 2015 I think? And just because he's wanting universal healthcare doesn't mean he'd establish it ineffectively if it was put into action. He wouldn't be in charge of it like he was with the VA, as far as I know at least. I think you're right that it's odd that people would think Bernie is the pinnacle of healthcare reform, but I also need to admit that Mitch McConnel and his ragtag group of ruiners are doing a whole lot worse at what they are attempting.

However under president Obama, and presumably under Bernie Sanders the waiting days of the VA went down 119 days between 2014 and 2015 I think?

Not buying that. I waited 14 months in 2014 and I'm still waiting after 18 months in 2016-2017. Granted, sample size of one, but frankly it's the one I care the most about.

Not really sure where to go from there.

We're political children more concerned with soundbites than policy.

I told you exactly where to go from there. Solve the VA. Show me the policy that fixes the VA, put that policy into practice. When that happens, I'll entertain a conversation about universal healthcare. Until you can do that, you're asking me to inflict the system that cut me into literal pieces onto the rest of the nation. I ain't having it. Come on -- gradually apply some data to it. Fix my conservative BS. Punch the Nazi. Show me what you got, you're the smart one.

Or were you just looking for another chance to throw out a soundbite?

sample size of one, but frankly it's the one I care the most about.

I've worked in systems that provide high quality healthcare to millions without bankrupting them. That make it possible to get real care rather than cluttering up the ERs with non critical patients, that save thousands of lives every single year. That is my sample size of one.

The VA is shit? You had a terrible experience? I am sorry for you, but even near perfect systems have malpractice and incompetence. You think the US can't do better than it currently does? That is conservative BS. You want to sit around and whine that it can't be done? That is your right but I will be out there advocating for a better system for my patients.

snip [+]

You're not hearing me.

I didn't say "leave it alone."

I said, show me the policy that fixes it, and we'll talk. Show me. You're apparently a subject-matter expert. Fix it. And then we'll talk about universal healthcare.

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Not buying that. I waited 14 months in 2014 and I'm still waiting after 18 months in 2016-2017. Granted, sample size of one, but frankly it's the one I care the most about.

I understand. And granted, I know less about this than you who have experienced it, or @Penny as a physician. I'm just going by this study here, and it seems unbiased to me.
Although now that I look at it again, it was published in 2014 so the days the waiting period lessened 119 days would be between 2013-2014. I find it kind of weird that it would have 8.92 million patients then like it is today as you say. The number just hadn't changed. I'm just going by the chart. I'm not a socialist, so I'm not advocating for tearing down an entire system and hope for the best with a system that has failed other countries in the past. I'm simply saying it's a huge, complicated process, and perhaps that while it's not good, it used to be even worse. And I think that affordable healthcare is a good thing.

providr.com/teens-killed-robbing-hous…
Three teenagers, ages 18, 17, and 16 respectively broke into someone's home to rob them. After discovering them in the act and 'exchanging words,' the home-owner gunned all three boys down. Thoughts?

Would need to know a little more. Regrettable situation. Tragic mistake, too. However, I'd recommend no charges against the homeowner.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I think the homeowner (son) had the right to defend himself and their property, and while I think there should be no legal action against him, I do think that shooting one person, then another, then another, is a pretty murderous thing to do. You'd think shooting one would give the other two the message. No matter how you slice it, I think ending 3 lives is a bit excessive even if it was his legal right.

I'm simply saying it's a huge, complicated process, and perhaps that while it's not good, it used to be even worse. And I think that affordable healthcare is a good thing.

Interestingly, to the first part (it used to be worse), the thing they did to lower wait times was toss a few billion into an entirely different fund called "VA Choice," which simply pays for the veteran to see a regular doctor. It didn't fix any part of what's broken at the VA, it just said "Well.... fuck it, idunno, here's regular insurance." But then the kicker is, the provider network is shrinking on account of the VA's track record for approvals and payments and all that (which is poor)

"Healthcare," "Affordable," and "Government." You can basically pick one-and-a-half of those things. The VA is affordable (free) and it's government, but you don't actually get healthcare. ACA is government healthcare, but it isn't actually affordable. Private healthcare is healthcare and it's normally affordable for most people most of the time -- I mean it's better than the alternatives we've seen, so far as the US (in the real actual world) is concerned, so I'd say for now we should sorta roll with that.

2014 is the year the VA was caught falsifying reports to make it appear that the waiting times were better than they were. At least 120,000 veterans were affected and dozens may have died because of the delays.

2014 is the year the VA was caught falsifying reports to make it appear that the waiting times were better than they were. At least 120,000 veterans were affected and dozens may have died because of the delays.

And they're still doing it, but now they loop the Choice Act into the chain of events. They can drag their feet at the VA first, then kick you to Choice 30 and drag their feet there, then kick you into Choice 40. Each one registers as a new wait time so you stay off their books. If you try to fight it, they mark it down as "cancelled by the veteran" and then they're off the hook entirely. The whole thing is super-fucked-up.

<Snipped quote by Kratesis>

And they're still doing it, but now they loop the Choice Act into the chain of events. They can drag their feet at the VA first, then kick you to Choice 30 and drag their feet there, then kick you into Choice 40. Each one registers as a new wait time so you stay off their books. If you try to fight it, they mark it down as "cancelled by the veteran" and then they're off the hook entirely. The whole thing is super-fucked-up.

I hate to be dramatic but this whole thing is a national dishonor. And I say that without hyperbole. I hope they at least feel ashamed. At least.

The home invaders wore all black, masks, and one was armed with a knife while another had brass knuckles. "Exchanging words" is an interesting detail that lacks significant detail. That could mean just about anything from sitting down, having a chat over a hot cup of coffee or the exchange of threats and warnings within a small time frame before the shots were fired. I find the way you describe the shooting as if the home owner's son thought deeply before each kill to be a bit presumptuous and possibly disingenuous. That aside, I look at it like this. It doesn't take that much time to fire the weapon, one. Two, how is the son supposed to know what weapons the potential robbers have? These people could have possibly murdered or wounded him had he not fired. The repercussions of entering a home that is not yours should be steep, given that your entrance is unwarranted AND sinister. I see nothing excessive here except the tragedy of three boys led astray.

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I hate to be dramatic but this whole thing is a national dishonor. And I say that without hyperbole. I hope they at least feel ashamed. At least.

I mean, not so sound like a broken record, but... they produce all the right soundbites, and that's all anybody's listening for.

.

Well over 40 percent of people who voted genuinely thought that a racist, sexist, pussy grabber in chief was the right thing to do.

I thought more people knew what those words mean but alas

providr.com/teens-killed-robbing-hous…
Three teenagers, ages 18, 17, and 16 respectively broke into someone's home to rob them. After discovering them in the act and 'exchanging words,' the home-owner gunned all three boys down. Thoughts?

That grandfather is one of the worst cases of 'HE DINDU NUFFIN.'