<Snipped quote by Penny>
This one happened maybe 30 minutes from where I live.
I guess it's the price these poor kids have to pay since guns are handed out like candy.
Most expensive piece of candy I ever bought.
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Most expensive piece of candy I ever bought.
Andreyich AS THOUGH A THOUSAND MOUTHS CRY OUT IN PAIN
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What?
@catchamber it gives small and unimpressive people a way to feel better about themselves by imaging themselves as members of an in group. Also serves as a basis for some to oppress others. I guess that is a type of utility?
EBIL!
@catchamber it gives small and unimpressive people a way to feel better about themselves by imaging themselves as members of an in group. Also serves as a basis for some to oppress others. I guess that is a type of utility?
I think you're right about "supremacy"-type racial bullshit, and now (because it's me) I'm trying to apply the logic more broadly... conveniently there's a prime example on top of the headlines this very day. What would you say about, for instance, movies like Black Panther? I've been itching to see it, and reading a lot of press regarding the film. A whole big lot of the critical reception so far is based on the racial significance of the movie.... is that, like, is that wrong? Or just a product of wrong things that have already happened, and the current celebration is just marking a milestone on the way back to how it should be?
bbc.com/culture/story/20180214-should…
bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-42…
bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42992914
theroot.com/wakanda-forever-on-the-im…
can try to dig up more if you like, I've been browsing these for what feels like a year
bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-42…
bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42992914
theroot.com/wakanda-forever-on-the-im…
can try to dig up more if you like, I've been browsing these for what feels like a year
Andrew Blade Rawrrior
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6 yrs ago
<Snipped quote by Penny>
This one happened maybe 30 minutes from where I live.
I guess it's the price these poor kids have to pay since guns are handed out like candy.
Where the fuck are they handing guns out like Candy? I would dress up like Woody from Toy Story to trick-or-treat in that neighborhood. Have you ever tried to buy a firearm? Who the fuck are you? Jimmy Kimmel? "We need real laws to keep guns out of the hands of people like this!" LIKE FUCKING WHAT!? Be fucking specific, what do you think congress should do, what law should be passed that would PREVENT this!?
I'm not saying that laws are a bad thing, I'm just saying that we already have laws in place, they just need to actually be enforced.
Now for the NRA to blame the thing entirely on mental illness and yet refuse to translate that into funding for mental health services
I really wish the NRA wasn't the primary mouthpiece of gun owners in America :( I think the National Association for Gun Rights, Gun Owners of America, and the Second Amendment Foundation serve as much better representatives of the people rather than large gun corporations.
TL/DR: Guns have a place in a civilized society, and it isn't all that difficult to come up with a streamlined way to prevent selling to someone that isn't legally able to own one.
What we have here is a society that has stopped disciplining children, been told that the word "No" is harmful, and has given children as old as 8 a device with a touchscreen, a large video display, and wireless internet access- on an internet that is growing increasingly desensitized and more controversial. Children regularly tell their parents that they will accuse them of child abuse if they spank them, and go so far as to scream, threaten, and even strike teachers, parents, and even school administrators when they are told to do something they don't want to do, or aren't allowed to do something they want to.
Everyone wants a quick fix. A band-aid. A piece of legislation they can point at and say, "See, this fixes it." But it's not going to happen. What we need is...
1) An overhaul of the way in which the mental health system operates and the stigma revolving around mental health. If you start giving mental health professionals the ability to take away a person's right to own a firearm, people are going to stop seeing mental health professionals. If you start making it illegal to own a gun if you've been involuntarily committed to a mental health institution, people are going to be much more likely to voluntarily seek out help to prevent that.
B. A simple and easy way to check to see if a person is legally allowed to own a firearm or not. Kind of like a concealed carry permit, with a phone number that can be called and an identification number that can run to see if it's valid or not. And if the person holding it commits any felony or crime of domestic violence, comes under indictment for a felony or crime of domestic violence, gets involuntarily committed to a mental institution, or is deemed mentally defective, an administrator at the mental institution, an official at the police station, or a social worker simply calls a phone number or goes on a website, pushes in the individual's information, like their social security card or driver's license number or some form of identifying number that would be associated with their firearms permit number if they don't have the number itself, and makes a selection that flags them as illegal to own a firearm. If and when this changes, such as the indictment is lifted, they are found not-guilty, or they are deemed to mentally have recovered their competency (I imagine THAT would be a long road), then their rights can be re-instated. Simple. Easy. I don't understand why it's so hard.
And just so everyone knows- it is already illegal to purchase a firearm while you are under indictment, if you have been adjudicated as mentally defective (this means that there is an official, legal ruling that you have enough mental disability that you would be found incompetent to stand trial for a crime), if you have committed a felony, if you have committed even a misdemeanor offense of domestic abuse, if you are under a restraining order, or if you are under the age of 18 (21 for handguns). If you purchase a firearm under the guise that it is for yourself when it is actually for someone else (ie, the background check and paperwork filled out is for you and not the person the gun is actually going to), it is a felony punishable up to 10 years in prison (except some cunt of a judge in GA gave a woman who bought a gun for a gang-banger that shot and killed a cop just 1 year of house arrest, which makes me question why the fuck people want more gun laws when we don't even enforce the ones we have).
This all boils down to parental/social responsibility and the culture in which our society is progressing. It is not realistic to say, "Get rid of guns." And it is not an effective solution to mandate that guns cannot have features X, Y, and Z, or that you can't have a magazine that holds more than 5 bullets or 10 bullets or whatever. That isn't going to stop anyone from getting them. It's not like it isn't already illegal to kill people, so making something illegal with the idea that it will prevent criminals from doing it is fucking asinine.
And banning "assault rifles" or, a more accurate term- semi-automatic, magazine-fed, center-fire rifles isn't the answer either. Neither is banning anything with a pistol grip, or an adjustable stock, or a flash-hider, or a muzzle brake, or a binary trigger. This does nothing but make it more difficult for a law-abiding citizen to own the firearm that works best for him or her. Modern sporting rifles, assault-style rifles, or- my personal favorite term- tactical rifles are actually the kinds of weapons that the second amendment was written for. Not tactical rifles specifically, but rather ordnance that is the equivalent of the most modern ballistic technology available. The reason for the second amendment was not hunting of self-defense, it was to allow the citizenry the ability to fight back against a tyrannical government. And before you moronic liberal hipsters say "That's fucking stupid. The military has drones and nuclear arms and airstrikes to take you out if they want to. How are a bunch of rednecks with rifles going to fight the United States military?" I ask you to look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam. The most difficult conflicts the U.S. military has ever engaged in were against civilian resistances armed with little more than small arms. It would be the same if the American government started being dickheads at home.
I also think it's super funny that most people that are screaming for a gun ban are the same people claiming that Trump "is literally Hitler," a comparison I won't argue all that hard against. Why on Earth do you want to give up your ability to fight against a corrupt government that might one day decide to conduct neighborhood raids and throw every Middle Eastern-looking person in an internment camp? or what if we go to war with Korea and Trump gets all sociopathic and wants to put every Korean American in jail too- for their own safety- just like FDR in WWII?
No, fuck that. I'm a straight white dude, with a wife and kids, so I don't feel like I personally have anything to fear, but I do have friends that I would fear for, and I would be the first one to give them refuge and protect them against something as disgustingly illegal and unjust as that, and I know I wouldn't be the only one.
/rant.
Everyone wants a quick fix. A band-aid. A piece of legislation they can point at and say, "See, this fixes it." But it's not going to happen. What we need is...
1) An overhaul of the way in which the mental health system operates and the stigma revolving around mental health. If you start giving mental health professionals the ability to take away a person's right to own a firearm, people are going to stop seeing mental health professionals. If you start making it illegal to own a gun if you've been involuntarily committed to a mental health institution, people are going to be much more likely to voluntarily seek out help to prevent that.
B. A simple and easy way to check to see if a person is legally allowed to own a firearm or not. Kind of like a concealed carry permit, with a phone number that can be called and an identification number that can run to see if it's valid or not. And if the person holding it commits any felony or crime of domestic violence, comes under indictment for a felony or crime of domestic violence, gets involuntarily committed to a mental institution, or is deemed mentally defective, an administrator at the mental institution, an official at the police station, or a social worker simply calls a phone number or goes on a website, pushes in the individual's information, like their social security card or driver's license number or some form of identifying number that would be associated with their firearms permit number if they don't have the number itself, and makes a selection that flags them as illegal to own a firearm. If and when this changes, such as the indictment is lifted, they are found not-guilty, or they are deemed to mentally have recovered their competency (I imagine THAT would be a long road), then their rights can be re-instated. Simple. Easy. I don't understand why it's so hard.
And just so everyone knows- it is already illegal to purchase a firearm while you are under indictment, if you have been adjudicated as mentally defective (this means that there is an official, legal ruling that you have enough mental disability that you would be found incompetent to stand trial for a crime), if you have committed a felony, if you have committed even a misdemeanor offense of domestic abuse, if you are under a restraining order, or if you are under the age of 18 (21 for handguns). If you purchase a firearm under the guise that it is for yourself when it is actually for someone else (ie, the background check and paperwork filled out is for you and not the person the gun is actually going to), it is a felony punishable up to 10 years in prison (except some cunt of a judge in GA gave a woman who bought a gun for a gang-banger that shot and killed a cop just 1 year of house arrest, which makes me question why the fuck people want more gun laws when we don't even enforce the ones we have).
This all boils down to parental/social responsibility and the culture in which our society is progressing. It is not realistic to say, "Get rid of guns." And it is not an effective solution to mandate that guns cannot have features X, Y, and Z, or that you can't have a magazine that holds more than 5 bullets or 10 bullets or whatever. That isn't going to stop anyone from getting them. It's not like it isn't already illegal to kill people, so making something illegal with the idea that it will prevent criminals from doing it is fucking asinine.
And banning "assault rifles" or, a more accurate term- semi-automatic, magazine-fed, center-fire rifles isn't the answer either. Neither is banning anything with a pistol grip, or an adjustable stock, or a flash-hider, or a muzzle brake, or a binary trigger. This does nothing but make it more difficult for a law-abiding citizen to own the firearm that works best for him or her. Modern sporting rifles, assault-style rifles, or- my personal favorite term- tactical rifles are actually the kinds of weapons that the second amendment was written for. Not tactical rifles specifically, but rather ordnance that is the equivalent of the most modern ballistic technology available. The reason for the second amendment was not hunting of self-defense, it was to allow the citizenry the ability to fight back against a tyrannical government. And before you moronic liberal hipsters say "That's fucking stupid. The military has drones and nuclear arms and airstrikes to take you out if they want to. How are a bunch of rednecks with rifles going to fight the United States military?" I ask you to look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam. The most difficult conflicts the U.S. military has ever engaged in were against civilian resistances armed with little more than small arms. It would be the same if the American government started being dickheads at home.
I also think it's super funny that most people that are screaming for a gun ban are the same people claiming that Trump "is literally Hitler," a comparison I won't argue all that hard against. Why on Earth do you want to give up your ability to fight against a corrupt government that might one day decide to conduct neighborhood raids and throw every Middle Eastern-looking person in an internment camp? or what if we go to war with Korea and Trump gets all sociopathic and wants to put every Korean American in jail too- for their own safety- just like FDR in WWII?
No, fuck that. I'm a straight white dude, with a wife and kids, so I don't feel like I personally have anything to fear, but I do have friends that I would fear for, and I would be the first one to give them refuge and protect them against something as disgustingly illegal and unjust as that, and I know I wouldn't be the only one.
/rant.
Andrew Blade Rawrrior
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6 yrs ago
Sorry. I'm new here. I don't really know what to do, but I saw this thread and thought I'd see what was being said, and then rant. I do feel better, though, so thank you for that.
Burning Kitty
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6 yrs ago
We don't need gun laws we need mental health laws that forcibly lock people up that are dangers to a society and hold therapists criminally and civilly responsible for when those in their care attack people.
If there are two rooms, one with a gun and nothing else, the other one with a crazy person who has snapped and ready to kill. You are safe in the gun room, unless you are so stupid you accidentally shoot yourself.
Guns do not kill, People are the killers. If someone wants to attack a school, office, park, and they can't get a gun to use they will use something else, sword, knife, bombs, poison, etc.
When a person intentionally runs over a person with their car you don't see people suing the car manufacturer, don't see politicians demanding "common sense" car laws.
Guns are nothing more than a scape goat for lazy stupid people or negligent politicians.
The only way to stop school shootings is to (preferably all):
1. Arm the staff.
2. One entrance period with an armed cop/security guard and metal detectors. All other doors incapable of being opened from the outside.
3. Lock up all crazy people.
4. Figure out what the fuck private grade schools are doing because you never hear of shootings at them.
5. Fire all liberals, socialists, communists from the schools and hire people who want to educate not indoctrinate.
If there are two rooms, one with a gun and nothing else, the other one with a crazy person who has snapped and ready to kill. You are safe in the gun room, unless you are so stupid you accidentally shoot yourself.
Guns do not kill, People are the killers. If someone wants to attack a school, office, park, and they can't get a gun to use they will use something else, sword, knife, bombs, poison, etc.
When a person intentionally runs over a person with their car you don't see people suing the car manufacturer, don't see politicians demanding "common sense" car laws.
Guns are nothing more than a scape goat for lazy stupid people or negligent politicians.
The only way to stop school shootings is to (preferably all):
1. Arm the staff.
2. One entrance period with an armed cop/security guard and metal detectors. All other doors incapable of being opened from the outside.
3. Lock up all crazy people.
4. Figure out what the fuck private grade schools are doing because you never hear of shootings at them.
5. Fire all liberals, socialists, communists from the schools and hire people who want to educate not indoctrinate.
The Harbinger of Ferocity
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3 yrs ago
I guess it's the price these poor kids have to pay since guns are handed out like candy.
Where are they handing out firearms like candy? I certainly would like to know. I haven't witnessed it before, but I suppose there is a first time for everything. After all, if it were that easy, I would expect more of them and at significantly reduced cost. It is almost as though obtaining firearms isn't as easy as people make it out to be and that the bad people are going to manage to get them one way or another, laws be damned.
SleepingSilence OC, Plz No Stealz.
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1 hr ago
There's not a single thing I could say about the gun debate, that I haven't already said. But if the smartest arguments are "oh look another one" and "handing guns out like candy". I feel like responding is a legit waste of everyone's time.
But, not that it should matter to condemn terrible actions and come to together as Americas to mourn lives lost. But the local authorities/sheriff said he wasn't apart of a supremacist group at all...
What we do know, is the FBI knew about him ahead of time, several times, despite supposedly having no criminal record and nothing was done about him. That and the mental health of this kid was clearly unwell, he abused animals among other things. The only thing I want answered that hasn't been, is did he purchase this gun legally and if so, where? Or more likely, did he steal this gun from his folks or obtain it illegally and if so, where?
But, not that it should matter to condemn terrible actions and come to together as Americas to mourn lives lost. But the local authorities/sheriff said he wasn't apart of a supremacist group at all...
What we do know, is the FBI knew about him ahead of time, several times, despite supposedly having no criminal record and nothing was done about him. That and the mental health of this kid was clearly unwell, he abused animals among other things. The only thing I want answered that hasn't been, is did he purchase this gun legally and if so, where? Or more likely, did he steal this gun from his folks or obtain it illegally and if so, where?
The Harbinger of Ferocity
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3 yrs ago
I know that we held this discussion the past day, @SleepingSilence, but it is clear beyond a doubt all of the numerous warning signs by many involved were ignored. There was and is no shortage of evidence that indicated Nikolas Cruz was a prime candidate for an active shooter. Why these were so looked over, underplayed, skipped outright, or put off is the largest issue I take. This was a case where the member was specifically barred from even going on the grounds, let alone having a backpack, and being the end of jokes by his peers that he was likely to be a school shooter.
I do not believe his obtaining a weapon was the issue here, rather the issue here was that anyone who knew anything about it in some cases did not report it or when they did reporting the reviewing officials failed spectacularly. The Federal Bureau of Investigation's failings here, public ones at that as we know of them and not even rumors from within, are clear signs they made a grave error and cost others their life by some form of bureaucracy or neglect on a potential tip. This is not to say Cruz did not do what he did, but it is to utterly note the shooter should have been handled first and foremost.
I do not believe his obtaining a weapon was the issue here, rather the issue here was that anyone who knew anything about it in some cases did not report it or when they did reporting the reviewing officials failed spectacularly. The Federal Bureau of Investigation's failings here, public ones at that as we know of them and not even rumors from within, are clear signs they made a grave error and cost others their life by some form of bureaucracy or neglect on a potential tip. This is not to say Cruz did not do what he did, but it is to utterly note the shooter should have been handled first and foremost.
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Andrew Blade Rawrrior
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6 yrs ago
We don't need gun laws we need mental health laws that forcibly lock people up that are dangers to a society and hold therapists criminally and civilly responsible for when those in their care attack people.
If there are two rooms, one with a gun and nothing else, the other one with a crazy person who has snapped and ready to kill. You are safe in the gun room, unless you are so stupid you accidentally shoot yourself.
Guns do not kill, People are the killers. If someone wants to attack a school, office, park, and they can't get a gun to use they will use something else, sword, knife, bombs, poison, etc.
When a person intentionally runs over a person with their car you don't see people suing the car manufacturer, don't see politicians demanding "common sense" car laws.
Guns are nothing more than a scape goat for lazy stupid people or negligent politicians.
The only way to stop school shootings is to (preferably all):
1. Arm the staff.
2. One entrance period with an armed cop/security guard and metal detectors. All other doors incapable of being opened from the outside.
3. Lock up all crazy people.
4. Figure out what the fuck private grade schools are doing because you never hear of shootings at them.
5. Fire all liberals, socialists, communists from the schools and hire people who want to educate not indoctrinate.
Arming the staff isn't exactly the best solution, but allowing the staff to carry concealed weapons, I think, is. Especially if you include firearms training requirements, conflict-resolution training, and regular mental health evaluations. It's also not a terrible idea to have armed, on-duty cops as school resource officers. I was a security guard for three years in an elementary school in an urban neighborhood. I carried a gun every single day. I was always concerned about "What if..." some psychopath came to shoot up the place, and there was never a doubt in my mind that I'd probably be the first casualty, but I could guaran-god-damn-tee that it'd be near impossible to get past me.
Every door was locked from the inside and the two main doors had controlled entry with either a badge or an intercom system.
Locking up all crazy people seems a little unrealistic.
Private schools have families that have to pay to send their kid there, and a strict behavior policy that boots kids that act up. Most of these kids and families want to be there and take steps to make sure that they can stay. Public schools? Not so much.
Andrew Blade Rawrrior
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6 yrs ago
There's not a single thing I could say about the gun debate, that I haven't already said. But if the smartest arguments are "oh look another one" and "handing guns out like candy". I feel like responding is a legit waste of everyone's time.
But, not that it should matter to condemn terrible actions and come to together as Americas to mourn lives lost. But the local authorities/sheriff said he wasn't apart of a supremacist group at all...
What we do know, is the FBI knew about him ahead of time, several times, despite supposedly having no criminal record and nothing was done about him. That and the mental health of this kid was clearly unwell, he abused animals among other things. The only thing I want answered that hasn't been, is did he purchase this gun legally and if so, where? Or more likely, did he steal this gun from his folks or obtain it illegally and if so, where?
I didn't do a lot of research on the story, but I did hear that he purchased it legally when he was 18 and it was kept in his "family"'s locked gun cabinet/safe. If the FBI knew about him, that raises some serious flags about why he was not under investigation, which would have discluded him form buying a firearm.
SleepingSilence OC, Plz No Stealz.
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1 hr ago
@The Harbinger of Ferocity I don't wish to turn a sh*tpost/joke into a serious question. But was this really just FBI incompetence? Was the FBI too focused on other matters and cleaning up its own scandals to actually be effective?
At this point, I'm not even sure if it is an individual problem. We clearly don't punish people enough, even if violent/gun crime is still decreasing. Since so many shooters have serious mental health issues. I'm starting to worry about this being a drug related problem. We already know, more guns doesn't equal more violent crime. And maybe not all mass shooters had severe mental illness...but there must be something else to it.
Also, I think armed security at schools would at least cut down on number of casualties, because guns according to the FBI save more lives than they take. Up to 3 million lives. But I'm not sure if that will automatically deter psycho's either. Otherwise, suicide by cop wouldn't exist. So maybe if someone wants to have a real debate on real solutions, we can talk about those. (Or we can, since I know we can talk about this sensibly.)
But, instead we have liars pushing AR = assault rifle, there was 18 shootings (when there wasn't), people lying about not wanting to take guns away and now we have the NYtimes and everyone else mentioning repealing the 2nd amendment and talking about AUS. Because otherwise we can't have an honest discussion, do you want control to ban scary looking armitage rifle's. We have 5 million to 10 million currently private hands, what do we do about those? Something the unhonest, cannot and will not answer. I digress.
At this point, I'm not even sure if it is an individual problem. We clearly don't punish people enough, even if violent/gun crime is still decreasing. Since so many shooters have serious mental health issues. I'm starting to worry about this being a drug related problem. We already know, more guns doesn't equal more violent crime. And maybe not all mass shooters had severe mental illness...but there must be something else to it.
Also, I think armed security at schools would at least cut down on number of casualties, because guns according to the FBI save more lives than they take. Up to 3 million lives. But I'm not sure if that will automatically deter psycho's either. Otherwise, suicide by cop wouldn't exist. So maybe if someone wants to have a real debate on real solutions, we can talk about those. (Or we can, since I know we can talk about this sensibly.)
But, instead we have liars pushing AR = assault rifle, there was 18 shootings (when there wasn't), people lying about not wanting to take guns away and now we have the NYtimes and everyone else mentioning repealing the 2nd amendment and talking about AUS. Because otherwise we can't have an honest discussion, do you want control to ban scary looking armitage rifle's. We have 5 million to 10 million currently private hands, what do we do about those? Something the unhonest, cannot and will not answer. I digress.
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Andrew Blade Rawrrior
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6 yrs ago
I've heard the 18 shootings thing too. My wife told me someone posted about it on facebook, and I said, "I call bullshit. Source?"
I saw a video on youtube the other day about MD confiscating 30-round magazines, and telling everyone they had "x" amount of days to turn them in before it became illegal to possess them.
One of my favorite conversations is with people that want to ban "black" rifles, or guns in general. We are not Australia, there is no way in hell we could successfully and safely remove the firearms currently in the market even if it wasn't a terrible idea. And turning in your own firearms to prevent gun crime is like giving yourself a vasectomy because your neighbors are having too many kids.
I saw a video on youtube the other day about MD confiscating 30-round magazines, and telling everyone they had "x" amount of days to turn them in before it became illegal to possess them.
One of my favorite conversations is with people that want to ban "black" rifles, or guns in general. We are not Australia, there is no way in hell we could successfully and safely remove the firearms currently in the market even if it wasn't a terrible idea. And turning in your own firearms to prevent gun crime is like giving yourself a vasectomy because your neighbors are having too many kids.
<Snipped quote by Xandrya>
Where the fuck are they handing guns out like Candy? I would dress up like Woody from Toy Story to trick-or-treat in that neighborhood. Have you ever tried to buy a firearm? Who the fuck are you? Jimmy Kimmel? "We need real laws to keep guns out of the hands of people like this!" LIKE FUCKING WHAT!? Be fucking specific, what do you think congress should do, what law should be passed that would PREVENT this!?
I'm not saying that laws are a bad thing, I'm just saying that we already have laws in place, they just need to actually be enforced.
Relax buddy, it's a figure of speech. I'm a veteran myself and I have purchased a handgun before, even though I eventually sold it back, and let me tell you it was an extremely easy process.
My opinion is that gun ownership shouldn't be a right, but a privilege, if that. Obviously what I believe doesn't matter so since that's not changing, I've yet to see any real change be put forth in the aftermath of all these school shootings. If I'm mentally ill (bad example because that bill was struck recently), all I have to do is tell my friend to go buy the gun for me and that's it. That's all it takes.
It's ridiculous. I have to buy insurance in order to drive my car, I must buy insurance for my health, and so on. But what about gun owners? Why not them too? It's harder to get a license in this country than to buy a gun, you know, the one object created with the sole purpose to kill.
I'd put more of my two cents, but I'm on a break at work and on my phone.
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SleepingSilence OC, Plz No Stealz.
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1 hr ago
I've heard the 18 shootings thing too. My wife told me someone posted about it on facebook, and I said, "I call bullshit. Source?"
One of my favorite conversations is with people that want to ban "black" rifles, or guns in general. We are not Australia, there is no way in hell we could successfully and safely remove the firearms currently in the market even if it wasn't a terrible idea. And turning in your own firearms to prevent gun crime is like giving yourself a vasectomy because your neighbors are having too many kids.
The most obvious/frequent counter to is "one (or the 3 or 4 we actually have supposedly had.) is too many." But then you have to ask, why was the 18 lie spread by so many in the first place? Why do people lie about AR guns being used in mass shootings more than handguns? When that's untrue. Why not wait until the bodies are buried before demonizing 90 percent of the country? It's because fear is a good tool for propaganda...and when you actually stop using emotional arguments, you'll realize they don't have many other solid arguments. And the only argument you can use, repealing the 2nd amendment and/or removing guns, is a widely unpopular one that even most democrats don't actually want.
Andrew Blade Rawrrior
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6 yrs ago
My opinion is that gun ownership shouldn't be a right, but a privilege, if that. Obviously what I believe doesn't matter so since that's not changing, I've yet to see any real change be put forth in the aftermath of all these school shootings. If I'm mentally ill (bad example because that bill was struck recently), all I have to do is tell my friend to go buy the gun for me and that's it. That's all it takes.
Right, the reason it's easier to buy a gun is because guns are a right, cars are a privilege. I'm very disappointed that you feel that way, but to each their own. What change do you propose being made in the aftermath of these shootings? Everyone keeps talking about how "nothing is being done" but no one has any actual practical propositions that would work.
Straw purchases, ie, your friend buying the gun for you, is illegal. So yes, that's all it takes for you to get a gun if you are mentally ill. But murder is also illegal, and all it takes for that is for me to slit someone's throat, or wrap my arms around their throat and squeeze until they stop moving. There's literally nothing stopping me, except my own values and the repercussions for what happens after. If someone wants to murder a bunch of people, what do you think we should do in order to prevent that?
You talk about buying a gun being extremely easy, and you're right, it is "easy" if you're a law-abiding citizen. A thorough background check is conducted, and some people have to wait several days for the results of the check to come back. Anyone with a purchase permit or a concealed carry permit has already been subjected to a thorough background check as well. If you don't have any legal issues preventing you from buying a gun, then yes, it is easy, though it takes about 6 pages of paperwork to transfer the firearm in addition to the background check, not to mention the price of firearms being pretty high, depending on what you want to buy. If I timed it, and a person came in knowing what they wanted, having all the proper permits, did not exhibit signs of substance abuse, aggressive behavior, or mental instability, they could buy a gun in probably fifteen minutes.
But that means that they have to have a clean background, proper ID, and the necessary funds. For the average criminal, those are not easy.
As for why not insurance for gun owners, again, it's a right, not a privilege. The reason it's a right is so that what happened in Germany in the 1940's can't happen here. The same thing with North Korea, and Venezuela, and any other totalitarian regime. An armed citizenry is extremely difficult to impose injustice upon.
And "must buy insurance for my health" is also a huge bullshit issue I have as well, but they repealed that part of the affordable care act, so it doesn't matter any more. You shouldn't HAVE to buy anything just to be alive- but that's going down another stupid road.
Andrew Blade Rawrrior
Member
Seen
6 yrs ago
I built this myself from custom parts and had it cerakoted because I wanted my wife to be able to enjoy the hobby as much as I did. Totally worked, btw, but now she's demanding a silencer.
And I feel like the best way to teach kids is to introduce them to things early and educate them about these things so that they aren't afraid of them, but nor do they have a natural curiosity to play with Dad's guns.
And this is my short barrel rifle with a *Dun-dun-duuuuuun*
Silencer.
And it was so EASY. All I had to do was pay an extra 200-dollars for a tax stamp and then wait 9 months for a 7-page form to be submitted and a thorough background check from the FBI to come back approved. Oh, and I had to go through the SAME process to have a barrel of less than 16" on a firearm with a stock, ie, a short barrel rifle.
And I feel like the best way to teach kids is to introduce them to things early and educate them about these things so that they aren't afraid of them, but nor do they have a natural curiosity to play with Dad's guns.
And this is my short barrel rifle with a *Dun-dun-duuuuuun*
Silencer.
And it was so EASY. All I had to do was pay an extra 200-dollars for a tax stamp and then wait 9 months for a 7-page form to be submitted and a thorough background check from the FBI to come back approved. Oh, and I had to go through the SAME process to have a barrel of less than 16" on a firearm with a stock, ie, a short barrel rifle.
<Snipped quote by Xandrya>
Right, the reason it's easier to buy a gun is because guns are a right, cars are a privilege. I'm very disappointed that you feel that way, but to each their own. What change do you propose being made in the aftermath of these shootings? Everyone keeps talking about how "nothing is being done" but no one has any actual practical propositions that would work.
Straw purchases, ie, your friend buying the gun for you, is illegal. So yes, that's all it takes for you to get a gun if you are mentally ill. But murder is also illegal, and all it takes for that is for me to slit someone's throat, or wrap my arms around their throat and squeeze until they stop moving. There's literally nothing stopping me, except my own values and the repercussions for what happens after. If someone wants to murder a bunch of people, what do you think we should do in order to prevent that?
You talk about buying a gun being extremely easy, and you're right, it is "easy" if you're a law-abiding citizen. A thorough background check is conducted, and some people have to wait several days for the results of the check to come back. Anyone with a purchase permit or a concealed carry permit has already been subjected to a thorough background check as well. If you don't have any legal issues preventing you from buying a gun, then yes, it is easy, though it takes about 6 pages of paperwork to transfer the firearm in addition to the background check, not to mention the price of firearms being pretty high, depending on what you want to buy. If I timed it, and a person came in knowing what they wanted, having all the proper permits, did not exhibit signs of substance abuse, aggressive behavior, or mental instability, they could buy a gun in probably fifteen minutes.
But that means that they have to have a clean background, proper ID, and the necessary funds. For the average criminal, those are not easy.
As for why not insurance for gun owners, again, it's a right, not a privilege. The reason it's a right is so that what happened in Germany in the 1940's can't happen here. The same thing with North Korea, and Venezuela, and any other totalitarian regime. An armed citizenry is extremely difficult to impose injustice upon.
And "must buy insurance for my health" is also a huge bullshit issue I have as well, but they repealed that part of the affordable care act, so it doesn't matter any more. You shouldn't HAVE to buy anything just to be alive- but that's going down another stupid road.
Well, you're right in that aspect; the government can't disrupt its citizens' lives if they're armed. But for what it's worth, I doubt the U.S. would even get near that point even without the legality of guns. I was born in a third world country so I know what it's like to get pushed around, and I don't wish it on people, but like I said, the odds are in our favor.
But just to be extra careful, as it's the argument here, let's keep guns legal, but make it a privilege (not a right) for people to own one. You can still buy a gun provided you meet all the requirements. That'll take care of the insurance issue. Also, I say every weapon comes with a mandatory biometric trigger guard, so only the owner may use it and no one else. A bit costly, sure, but it'd be an effective measure. If the individual doesn't want to end up in a scenario where they get threatened into unlocking the gun for someone else to use, then they should keep it locked up in a safe and refrain from bragging about their stash to their crazy friends.
I may be overlooking something, but I think it'd be a good idea.
Also, I feel this way simply because I see more incidents of a bad guy with a gun or a good guy with a gun accidentally shooting their friend/family member than I see a good guy with a gun effectively defending themselves or someone else. So the bad outweighs the good. And by no means do I follow any one specific media source as to be biased, and likewise, my friends list on FB is about half and half on the political scale, so I see both sides of the argument (I'm an independent myself).
Andrew Blade Rawrrior
Member
Seen
6 yrs ago
See, Germany in 1939 thought the exact same thing. So did Venezuela when they outlawed firearms. You can't take away something as basic and fundamental as protection on the idea that, "Pft! That'll never happen!" Especially when we have someone as ridiculous as Trump running our government. Having the odds in my favor is like saying, "Car air bags hurt people. I'm probably not ever going to be in an accident, and neither are you, so you shouldn't endanger the life of yourself or those in your cars by installing them."
I kind of see what you're getting at as far as privilege vs right, but the idea of making it so that the government "allows" you to own a firearm is never going to fly. If it's a privilege, it can be taken away for no reason. That gives the government the power to outlaw it at their whim. America is a nation that was born from citizens fighting tyranny, meaning civilians with privately-owned firearms fighting against a government with military ordnance. That heritage is the reason behind the second amendment, and it's the number 1 reason that amendment will never be repealed.
Insurance is something that's out there, but it's not an insurance policy in the way that most insurance policies operate. Car insurance means that they will pay for the damage you incur in the case of an accident. Gun insurance would mean they would pay for the damage you incur in the case of your firearm causing damage- either to a person or property. 9/10 times that is only going to happen if you are committing a felony or protecting your life, in which case no insurance company is going to cover you if you are committing a felony, and if you are protecting your life or the life of those around you, no one should hold you liable for the damage you cause when you kill a perpetrator. The USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Association) offers concealed carry insurance, but that insurance doesn't give a fuck about the person you shoot- it's made to protect the person doing the shooting in the case of a justified shoot by offering legal representation and money to even pay for another firearm while yours is being held in police evidence.
And a biometric trigger lock is a great thing. They're currently testing the technology. I wouldn't be against it, but I wouldn't want it to be mandatory. If I have a gun at home that I want to take the range and have my friends shoot, I'd like it to be able to be shot by everyone, not just me. I'm all for keeping guns in a biometric safe- I have one, and only my wife or I can open it, but making it so you have lock individual firearms is impractical for most gun owners.
Then there's the scenario you've painted about someone being threatened to unlock their safe for someone else to use their gun... What are they doing the threatening with? A gun? Why would they need mine? A knife? What would stop me from opening my safe and grabbing my gun and killing them? And what's the fun of having a super kick-ass firearm that you spent way too much money on if you can't brag about it to your friends?
You see the incidents of bad people with guns more than good people with guns because A) Bad people create situations in which they use their guns, whereas good people react to them. B) the media doesn't cover incidents when guns save lives. Those don't have double-digit body counts, so they don't make the news. C) Good people that own guns that don't cause problems don't make the news. The bad does not out weigh the good, it just makes the news more often.
Just because a person owns a gun doesn't mean they know what the fuck they're doing with it, and that often results in negligent discharges and accidents. It would be really nice to make training more affordable, which could be easily doable if the government would subsidize it. You could hold community gun safety training classes at the local community center for free and do a hell of a lot of good for some otherwise ignorant people.
I kind of see what you're getting at as far as privilege vs right, but the idea of making it so that the government "allows" you to own a firearm is never going to fly. If it's a privilege, it can be taken away for no reason. That gives the government the power to outlaw it at their whim. America is a nation that was born from citizens fighting tyranny, meaning civilians with privately-owned firearms fighting against a government with military ordnance. That heritage is the reason behind the second amendment, and it's the number 1 reason that amendment will never be repealed.
Insurance is something that's out there, but it's not an insurance policy in the way that most insurance policies operate. Car insurance means that they will pay for the damage you incur in the case of an accident. Gun insurance would mean they would pay for the damage you incur in the case of your firearm causing damage- either to a person or property. 9/10 times that is only going to happen if you are committing a felony or protecting your life, in which case no insurance company is going to cover you if you are committing a felony, and if you are protecting your life or the life of those around you, no one should hold you liable for the damage you cause when you kill a perpetrator. The USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Association) offers concealed carry insurance, but that insurance doesn't give a fuck about the person you shoot- it's made to protect the person doing the shooting in the case of a justified shoot by offering legal representation and money to even pay for another firearm while yours is being held in police evidence.
And a biometric trigger lock is a great thing. They're currently testing the technology. I wouldn't be against it, but I wouldn't want it to be mandatory. If I have a gun at home that I want to take the range and have my friends shoot, I'd like it to be able to be shot by everyone, not just me. I'm all for keeping guns in a biometric safe- I have one, and only my wife or I can open it, but making it so you have lock individual firearms is impractical for most gun owners.
Then there's the scenario you've painted about someone being threatened to unlock their safe for someone else to use their gun... What are they doing the threatening with? A gun? Why would they need mine? A knife? What would stop me from opening my safe and grabbing my gun and killing them? And what's the fun of having a super kick-ass firearm that you spent way too much money on if you can't brag about it to your friends?
You see the incidents of bad people with guns more than good people with guns because A) Bad people create situations in which they use their guns, whereas good people react to them. B) the media doesn't cover incidents when guns save lives. Those don't have double-digit body counts, so they don't make the news. C) Good people that own guns that don't cause problems don't make the news. The bad does not out weigh the good, it just makes the news more often.
Just because a person owns a gun doesn't mean they know what the fuck they're doing with it, and that often results in negligent discharges and accidents. It would be really nice to make training more affordable, which could be easily doable if the government would subsidize it. You could hold community gun safety training classes at the local community center for free and do a hell of a lot of good for some otherwise ignorant people.
It may be the wine I had this evening but...I mean, I can't argue with you on most aspects of this discussion. I do, however, fully stand behind the biometric device. I believe it's a great idea to prevent illegal use of handguns which lead to incidents such as the one here. Your wife/friend/neighbor may not be able to play with it at the range, but maybe something can be done about finding a way to activate/deactivate the device. Only you as the owner would have the option to do so though.
And the argument where someone threatens you at knifepoint or whatever is a bit silly, but I was trying to look at every viable option to try to cover all grounds in favor of the biometric device.
I do have to admit that you're probably the first person with a different belief than mine who's successfully managed to get me to agree with some of their viewpoints.
And the argument where someone threatens you at knifepoint or whatever is a bit silly, but I was trying to look at every viable option to try to cover all grounds in favor of the biometric device.
I do have to admit that you're probably the first person with a different belief than mine who's successfully managed to get me to agree with some of their viewpoints.
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