<Snipped quote by Mara>

Inb4: "It knows it's a bad movie"

I see the same defense for Machete Kills, knowing that you're shit, doesn't make you any less shit.

Bad movies are only fun when they are truly awful and have zero self awareness.

I was actually making the point that Sharknado isn't like other disaster movies, so if you've seen 4 then you never really have seen them all, unless one of those 4 moves was Sharknado. Imo the first one was kinda good but it's less funny when a b-movie is actively striving to be a b-movie. What made Asylum Productions' other movies so-bad-it's-good was how unaware they were of their own lacking quality. Now they're shitty SyFy movies that are trying to be shitty SyFy movies. It just makes them boring. Fateful Findings is the greatest movie of All Time because Real Human Neil Breen thought he was genuinely making a masterpiece.

dont even think about coming for machete kills though fuck you

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Star Wars is Bad and Dumb but those three movies are the least Bad and Dumb.

I only liked ep 1 cause of the pod racing. Haven't seen 8 and I have no desire to.

But yes, poorly acted, and poorly directed children's films that are let off for so many shortcomings because they pioneered movie space opera are indeed bad and dumb.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

I was actually making the point that Sharknado isn't like other disaster movies, so if you've seen 4 then you never really have seen them all, unless one of those 4 moves was Sharknado. Imo the first one was kinda good but it's less funny when a b-movie is actively striving to be a b-movie. What made Asylum Productions' other movies so-bad-it's-good was how unaware they were of their own lacking quality. Now they're shitty SyFy movies that are trying to be shitty SyFy movies. It just makes them boring. Fateful Findings is the greatest movie of All Time because Real Human Neil Breen thought he was genuinely making a masterpiece.

dont even think about coming for machete kills though fuck you

I agree with you on the Real Human Breen.

The first Sharknado was actively trying to be a b-movie. I feel that the only reason why it was postively received because of the abysmally low expectations for Asylum were exceeded when they attempted something (kind of) original. They found a 'formula' and like you said just kept making more try-hard bad movies and they got worse and worse. But all those movies including the first one are shit and they bring nothing to the disaster genre outside of reminding people that Tara Reid does exist outside of the early 2000s.

Machete Kills is shit, but it's not uniquely shit, its just what happens when people take the whole 'ironic grindhouse' thing too far. The aesthetic of Death Proof and Planet Terror 'double feature' exploitation throwback, lead to too many intentionally bad movies that basically everyone involved regrets. Machete Kills really wanted cult status and it never got it, it's bad at being bad.

Speaking of poor movies that people think are good because everyone expected them to be worse, Wonder Woman showed that any good acting by Gal Gadot is largely by accident.

Speaking of poor movies that people think are good because everyone expected them to be worse, Wonder Woman that any good acting by Gal Gadot is largely by accident.

Wonder Woman is a movie that falls apart all the way in the third act and really doesn't do anything to stand out from movies Marvel used to make back in 2008-2012 other than the whole 'it's a female led superhero movie' which goes a long way in excusing its glaring flaws and fucking laughable action scenes. It's a solid C Plus movie but by DCEU standards it's a home fucking run. Seriously, David Thewlis with cgi abs has no place in a critically acclaimed movie. It's like excusing Black Panther's shitty third act CG because it's got Wakanda in it.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Wonder Woman is a movie that falls apart all the way in the third act and really doesn't do anything to stand out from movies Marvel used to make back in 2008-2012 other than the whole 'it's a female led superhero movie' which goes a long way in excusing its glaring flaws and fucking laughable action scenes. It's a solid C Plus movie but by DCEU standards it's a home fucking run. Seriously, David Thewlis with cgi abs has no place in a critically acclaimed movie. It's like excusing Black Panther's shitty third act CG because it's got Wakanda in it.

Wonder Woman is far far worse than black panther though.

Black Panther is a Better than Good movie with some sizable shortcomings.

Wonder Woman is a below average movie with some massive shortcomings.

WW is literally held up by

1) Gal Gadot's screen presence.

2) Gal Gadot and Chris Pine's jackpot lottery chemistry.

3) That theme song that totally isn't lifted sampled from anything else and is super original.

Everything else about that movie is shit, supporting characters, villains, setting, pacing, world building, are awful save for one okay fight scene in the town. It's just that the 3rd act is extremely offensive because it has the monopoly man as Ares and it ends with a mid season dragonball-z beam struggle.

Black Panther's 3rd act was spotty, but it was engaging.

I agree that Black Panther is better than Wonder Woman, but I'd put them both in the same boat as 'not very good comic blockbuster movies' though for incredibly different reasons. I'd sooner watch Black Panther over Wonder Woman because at least Black Panther swings for a fence with its themes instead of trying to make a point with "see people are more complicated and killing a bad person won't end a war" and then immediately undercutting it by defeating one person to end a war.

The original series I considered to be rather nice because despite somewhat primitive mechanics at the time, it carries an old movie nostalgia to me that I've since pretty much considered character. Character to the plot, the setting, and the characters themselves. An air of mystery that turned out alright, some interesting individuals, why the fuck do lightsabers not choose if they cause blood or not Ben what were you doing in that bar, and then the occasional dumbass moment by the Empire in decision making. But those moments weren't prevalent, nor did they define the antagonists. And, while far weaker, that wouldn't define the protagonists either, beyond reason. The first death star's destruction takes a bit of rickety stretching, but is largely excusable to me. The guy's 25, a damn good pilot from childhood training, and just got some fun little force powers that he went 'hey, what happens if I angle those shots down'. I can accept it.

It's when the prequels come in that you start getting some really irksome continuity errors, character flaws, missed opportunities, shitty presentation, frequent moments of Lucas retardation that indicate he had no such input that may have been present in the original series, etc. Film by film. Perhaps you could make these cases for the original trilogy. I admit not having seen them in a while, so I can't point by point them as much.

Phantom Menace.
- The Trade Federation is a huge entity presumably built by strong administrators and able commanders who've kept a planet under blockade (for some reason, I'm sure it's important) for a while. Their decisions at the beginning of the movie begin to take spectacular pitfalls that damage immersion for me. They blow up the Jedi ship first, successfully allowing the Jedi to know what's going on before making their next move. Then they filter obvious poison gas into a room where the alert Jedi are literally watching it come. Gross underestimation of a Jedi, OK, fine. Then the leader has a cluster of droids stand outside the locked door, and tell them to 'clean up what's left'. If you have that many droids prepared to clear out a room where the poison should have killed the jedi, then maybe you should have gotten better firepower involved, or just... leave the door closed for a few hours? Nope, just immediately open the door, let the jedi out to slaughter them, and then they speed off across the ship largely unchallenged and untracked from there. Underestimating them is one thing, and a mistake that should never be repeated by able officers, but not even putting a serious enough effort into putting them down begins to stretch it. And of course the order of operations (blow up the ship so the Jedi know something is wrong) is quite off.
- Qui-Gon splits up the Jedi. What. Why. Here's some reasons why this is stupid: a) they could land clear across the world from each other, thereby splitting up and being almost independently useless for a while and b) his logic doesn't hold up, as it's easier to detect an intrusion in two ships and put it down. I begin by questioning the judgement of the Jedi Master, because I can't see how that's a viable plot. From Kenobi, sure, he's young and unskilled, but Qui-Gon?... okie
- Naboo's blockade escape scene struck me as totally stupid. The protagonists later charge into the federation's totally dumb ring (...doesn't a planetary blockade cover the entire planet, not just a ring? whatever), straight into the core of fed firepower. That many ships attacking something that is coming right towards them should, by rights, instantly blow away a little ship. All they do is manage to hit the shield generator (why the bloody hell do you have shields if your generator just gets smacked? But then, why aren't you blown up in the meantime? Perpetual incompetence begins here). The little ship is basically unscathed and goes away. Goddammit. Sideous should fry every federation leader for that kind of idiocy, especially since he's the only antagonist I'd consider marginally smart by this point. Though the outcomes of some of his decisions to this point I'd question. Still, with a bit of expanded knowledge, I can excuse his hiccups with the fact that he's still an apprentice, I believe.
- Later on, when the queen is captured, the fact that two droid-murdering jedi are loose doesn't convince the federation to put maybe a tiny bit of competent security around their most important package, the queen, when moving her to some obscure camp (...hmm.) This is where their idiocy becomes inexcusable for me. I can reluctantly stretch their handling in my first point as being underestimation by a group that doesn't fight Jedi. I can no longer stretch it to them totally underestimating the Jedi even when their most important captive on the planet is in their custody, with a Sith Lord bearing down on you to do things right. I begin to question how the Trade Federation even came together. Apparently anyone with foresight was murdered before the movie and Sideous took full control using total inerts. It could explain my less than forthcoming search for a concrete reason why the Federation would align with Sideous on a political level in the first place.
- Presentation of the politics struck me as flat and has certainly earned many audience complaints. While I think the presentation was somewhat flat, like most of the dialogue across the prequels, I didn't have a true problem with this.
- Anakin being born out of space magic and then the miticlilboboablubs. Eeeeh...
- Anakin building C-3PO is really weird to me. I distinctly recall a junker C-3PO existing elsewhere that Anakin could have used. But even if that was not an option, I'm not sure why he would build a translator droid to help his mother. The droid's lack of real mobility across every movie and his general uselessness in anything practical leaves me wondering what the point of him is. Help me out. Does Anakin just not know what a real handy droid is? Is that all he can come up with based on seeing droids so far in his life? Why is he a total Gary Sue in building and piloting at the age of 9? It doesn't even fit in later films, where I consider him to be relatively balanced? The droid then just poofs for a while and emerges complete by somebody somehow.
- Maul's attack on the Jedi was poorly executed. Everyone was allowed to run along a sidepath, and all of those people probably would have gotten to their destination. Step 1 is to deprive them of that route somehow. The jedi are obviously a priority, but they are not the only one. And besides, surely involving a bunch of more regular people in a bloodbath would be more fun for him. And result in a less total flashy scene and something to set one at the edge of their seats more often.
- Space battle with Anakin. The equipment in the cockpit seems to fit a 9 year old just fine. He's a brilliant pilot despite never having piloted something like that ever before. He blows up a ship despite the lack of experience and gets out without a hitch. He's on par with Rey at this point. Yes, I'm going to slam Rey later.
- Missed opportunities in having Kenobi show actual emotion instead of more flashy movey stuff that wasn't as engaging for me.
- Kenobi could have been written a little more enthusiastic when handling Anakin.
- Dooku could have been lended more depth by being involved in the movie. Really, I think there was loads of missed development on his part, which I'll cover soon.
- Gungan guy was marginally excusable for me. I can elaborate why if someone wants. But his army and the underwater kingdom stuff, now, that was pure cheese.

In Attack of the Clones, I have little to say about plot points, largely because I can barely remember it. I watched all 3 movies at about the same time, and Phantom Menace was at least more memorable to me than this one. That's because Attack of the Clones I think was the peak of flat presentation.
- Dooku's presentation missed extreme possibilities. His change to the Sith cause, his loose connection with Kenobi to possibly tempt the younger Jedi Knight and give him an actual problem to face across the film at a personal level. I rather liked the character. I don't think he got enough credit or development based on my theories of Dooku.
- Overall delivery was rather flat. The content worked (not particularly engaging and remember, I don't even remember enough to nitpick every little thing anyways), but all in all, everything could have been more interesting.

Return of the Jedi I believe was the best production of the prequels, which in light of the above probably doesn't say much. It also both closed stories from the old movies and opened new holes that went straight into the original series. A few things that make the continuity of the prequels dubious as anything more than a retelling pieced together by rumor. I'll tie in events between the prequels and the original to start with.
- Padme dies upon giving children. Did nobody remember that Leia had memories of her mother? Is Leia a super-magic baby who can remember one or two smiles off her dying mother and translate that into an implied early childhood? Don't answer that...
- Kenobi later appears to totally forget two iconic droids owned by Anakin, with one literally built by Anakin (why didn't he at least send someone to figure out where they went? Did he just forget, too?).
- noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
- Minor flaws that you can probably find online sprung up all over the place thanks to the fast and loose continuity of Lucas
- Palpatine is pretty generic. I was rather disappointed with his final presentation. He might have caught some of the badass elements, but I expected more from the figure based on his originals presentation.

As far as characters go, I think the prequels missed development on Dooku, Kenobi and Palpatine, and scenes to make others like Qui-Gon, Maul, and Padme a bit more relatable and fleshed out beyond single elements or otherwise underwhelming characters in their film presentations. The movies clearly suffered from back and forth decisions on backstory, and ROTS was a patchwork of endings that rather badly connected to the originals on the details. The story was very long, a bit glazed over, and in my opinion, pretty bad. The primary saving grace is action (when present), some interesting scenes, the brand and the a couple of interesting elements across the movies (yet, in my opinion, just not enough).

I redirect fire to the latest disney entries.
- Foremost on my mind is Rey, a character who I believe is simply overpowered and a bad character given her presentation as compared to Luke and later Anakin. She has little development, no real arcs that I'm aware of, succeeds relatively easily in things she attempts, only gets put to a stop when big bad boring and underdeveloped big bad Snoke is involved, absurdly powerful in the force at first glance without a proper justification, and easily stands toe to toe with an edgy wannabe Vader who at least has training by a supposedly very competent dark lord of something who is called Snoke. Based on the information about her, I'll make comparisons to earlier antagonists. Original Luke I love as a character. He is natural, nicely balanced, and a character I'd willingly accept as a protagonist in a star wars roleplay were I to make something 1x1 as a GM. Anakin's first movie performance would be unacceptable in the same context, but I would accept the later two films. Rey I would accept in no form if a character sheet was compiled of what is known of her, as I don't think her story connects well with what she can do as presented. There's another movie I guess and still time to correct that. But after Anakin, I'm a little tired of the superpowered birth gimmick.
- The First Order is lead by bungling idiots from the inept Ren to Snoke's supposed wisdom but semi-frequent failures (including his inglorious death that he somehow never saw coming) to just the officers who somehow made it that far.
- The First Order's frequent idiocy is only matched by the Rebel Alliance's also incompetent command and decision making. Unlike earlier movies, it's not a matter of who's smarter. It's a matter of who's stupid enough to make the most fatal mistakes first.
- I think Luke's character was butchered, outright. Improperly explained and simply unfitting to me.
- I dislike the disney trilogy thus far for the same reasons why I dislike the prequels - presentation, character natures/development, and overall plots. Clearly, the movies fit the times, and the times are a bit scary to me considering how much dumbassery is prevalent in the disney movies (specifically targeting the new trilogy, I couldn't have been bothered to watch the other ones), the overpowered nature of the protagonist, the bullshit surrounding them that results in a comical galactic war between oldgen viewers and newgen viewers (in which I've been called everything for the most part, including a disney shill. Here's my obligatory disney shilling post, guys).

I've missed many things, bits and pieces are incoherent, etc. Long morning, what can I say. Felt like rambling.

@ArenaSnow fucking hell

Anyways, @Dynamo Frokane, I basically agree with everything you said in your post so I'm not gonna bother to respond just to repeat the stuff you said. I'll still hold some weird post-post-ironic love for Machete Kills though, but I can accept it fell flat on its face. You've really tapped into something with this thread though, I like it. Can't wait for the Bright review to spark some more discussion, since it will probably take eons for people to dissect Arena's post. jk luv u arena

Heck yes time for my favorite thing: pointlessly discussing opinions.

-Foremost on my mind is Rey, a character who I believe is simply overpowered and a bad character given her presentation as compared to Luke and later Anakin. She has little development, no real arcs that I'm aware of, succeeds relatively easily in things she attempts, only gets put to a stop when big bad boring and underdeveloped big bad Snoke is involved, absurdly powerful in the force at first glance without a proper justification, and easily stands toe to toe with an edgy wannabe Vader who at least has training by a supposedly very competent dark lord of something who is called Snoke.

This is where I'm gonna jump in to defend Rey since a common misconception about her from episode 7 is that she is a Mary Sue (she isn't) and that her character was established in similar way to Luke from A New Hope. As in: visually. It is contrasted super hard from our introduction to Kylo (who is subverted later due to the introduction to good effect), and to Poe who we are just flatout told is 'the best pilot' Rey's introduction is completely through visual storytelling. She's introduced scavenging through an old Imperial walker, she's shown to be incredibly independent, her makeshift home is basically dug out of wreckage and her putting on of the helmet is about as much of an expression of dream and desire as Luke looking out at the twin suns. This pivots to her meeting BB-8 where her initial reluctance is won over though she's still not exactly interested in it up until the whole exchange at the bazaar.

Rey's development is incomplete but she's in a different place at the end of both movies then she was at the start, which is pretty much the basis of any character in film or story telling. By the end of TFA she's willing to embrace what everyone has called her destiny even though all she wants is to cling to the desperate hope that her parents didn't just leave her to fend for herself. She starts the movie as fiercely independent, then finds the father figure she's always desired, and has to watch as that's taken away from her. Her story parallels that of Luke and it's very deliberate. By the end of ANH, Luke basically single handedly destroys the Death Star; by the end of TFA, Rey's biggest accomplishment is beating a very injured and overly emotional Kylo Ren who isn't even trying to defeat her anyway.

Her arcs thus far are about dealing with loss and disappointment yet still having the hope to push on. She lost her parents, her father figure, a man she idolized from legendary stories turned out to be a massive disappointment, and the guy she thought she could save when others failed him turned out to be the biggest disappointment of them all. Unlike Kylo, her disappointment doesn't send her spiraling down a dark path but instead she intends to use it to grow and improve upon it. There's a reason Yoda blatantly spells out the message of failure in TLJ.

Nothing Rey has done in the movies have been overpowered. She knows how to fly because Unkar lets her take ships to atmo sometimes, she knows how to fix the Falcon because she was there when the modification was installed and Han wasn't. She's shown to be a capable fighter on Jakku and her entire life to that point is one that suggests learning self defense is vital. At most the case is against her use of the Force with no training, but that's how the Force is and it wasn't like she was doing death defying feats. She'd heard the tales of the Jedi, she got a basic overview from Maz Kanata, and she put it into action by bluffing Kylo and tricking a guard. Force sensitives do weird stuff practically unconsciously.

But after Anakin, I'm a little tired of the superpowered birth gimmick.

Good thing that's not what Rey's deal is.

- The First Order is lead by bungling idiots from the inept Ren to Snoke's supposed wisdom but semi-frequent failures (including his inglorious death that he somehow never saw coming) to just the officers who somehow made it that far.

Ren is hardly inept, just emotionally immature, and it's hard to say that the First Order is idiotic considering they're basically winning the conflict and literally made their stamp on the galaxy by taking out the center of the new government. Snoke's wisdom starts and stops with him having knowledge of the Force and basic manipulation tactics. The First Order is made up of people who retreated after the end of the last war, they're Imperial loyalists and those birthed into it, fanatics in other terms. The main problem with them is that their goals are ill defined, but that's because the First Order and the Resistance are just tools to further the development of the main characters.

- The First Order's frequent idiocy is only matched by the Rebel Alliance's also incompetent command and decision making. Unlike earlier movies, it's not a matter of who's smarter. It's a matter of who's stupid enough to make the most fatal mistakes first.

It's the Resistance, the Rebel Alliance stopped being a thing when they won the war. The Resistance scrounged together an offensive that destroyed a system-killing weapon and then took out a dreadnought (albeit in an engagement with too high a cost) all while being understaffed and underfunded. There's no real government anymore and the Resistance never had the official backing of the Republic anyway. They aren't doing so badly for a bunch of people with dwindling numbers.

- I think Luke's character was butchered, outright. Improperly explained and simply unfitting to me.

I disagree entirely. The fact that the guy who staunchly refused to fight his father and the evil raisin man would then go on to do the most Jedi thing in the history of Jedi is a fitting coda to his character.

- I dislike the disney trilogy thus far for the same reasons why I dislike the prequels - presentation, character natures/development, and overall plots. Clearly, the movies fit the times, and the times are a bit scary to me considering how much dumbassery is prevalent in the disney movies

Star Wars has never had dumbass stuff in it. Not like the central conceit of a magical entity that is 'blue is good, red is bad' is dumb or anything!

Heck yes time for my favorite thing: pointlessly discussing opinions.

Yes indeed.

This is where I'm gonna jump in to defend Rey since a common misconception about her from episode 7 is that she is a Mary Sue (she isn't) and that her character was established in similar way to Luke from A New Hope. As in: visually. It is contrasted super hard from our introduction to Kylo (who is subverted later due to the introduction to good effect), and to Poe who we are just flatout told is 'the best pilot' Rey's introduction is completely through visual storytelling. She's introduced scavenging through an old Imperial walker, she's shown to be incredibly independent, her makeshift home is basically dug out of wreckage and her putting on of the helmet is about as much of an expression of dream and desire as Luke looking out at the twin suns. This pivots to her meeting BB-8 where her initial reluctance is won over though she's still not exactly interested in it up until the whole exchange at the bazaar.

I think it's a common misconception among fans of the new trilogy that she has the same kind of development as Luke in terms of evolving from virtually nothing into a force competent power. There is a difference between 'incredibly independent' and incredibly skilled on a relatively out of the way world who is not underskilled in anything. I see no real challenges for her. I see little weakness. I see little to grow from, and as a result, I simply don't see the growth. I see the same person in the next movie as I saw in the first movie. Luke was heavily flawed, heavily unskilled save for a couple things (and certainly nowhere near as adept with the Force as she proves to be off the bat). He was rather relatable off the bat for his many flaws, each of which he overcame. I saw little of that in Rey. And that is where I feel she falls flat.

Rey's development is incomplete but she's in a different place at the end of both movies then she was at the start, which is pretty much the basis of any character in film or story telling. By the end of TFA she's willing to embrace what everyone has called her destiny even though all she wants is to cling to the desperate hope that her parents didn't just leave her to fend for herself. She starts the movie as fiercely independent, then finds the father figure she's always desired, and has to watch as that's taken away from her. Her story parallels that of Luke and it's very deliberate. By the end of ANH, Luke basically single handedly destroys the Death Star; by the end of TFA, Rey's biggest accomplishment is beating a very injured and overly emotional Kylo Ren who isn't even trying to defeat her anyway.

A different set of surroundings and saying 'wellp, I have a point now' to your already developed abilities after seeing each test easily surpassed is another matter entirely. As far as beating Kylo Ren, consider that Rey isn't even remotely trained in lightsaber combat, while Ren was given considerable training in that as well as general force abilities. He was underpresented and she was overpresented.

Her arcs thus far are about dealing with loss and disappointment yet still having the hope to push on. She lost her parents, her father figure, a man she idolized from legendary stories turned out to be a massive disappointment, and the guy she thought she could save when others failed him turned out to be the biggest disappointment of them all. Unlike Kylo, her disappointment doesn't send her spiraling down a dark path but instead she intends to use it to grow and improve upon it. There's a reason Yoda blatantly spells out the message of failure in TLJ.

And yet I see her ultimately change little over the course. The presentation is simply boring to me. We'll probably need to agree to disagree.

Nothing Rey has done in the movies have been overpowered. She knows how to fly because Unkar lets her take ships to atmo sometimes, she knows how to fix the Falcon because she was there when the modification was installed and Han wasn't. She's shown to be a capable fighter on Jakku and her entire life to that point is one that suggests learning self defense is vital. At most the case is against her use of the Force with no training, but that's how the Force is and it wasn't like she was doing death defying feats. She'd heard the tales of the Jedi, she got a basic overview from Maz Kanata, and she put it into action by bluffing Kylo and tricking a guard. Force sensitives do weird stuff practically unconsciously.

- Great fighter including with a lightsaber just by picking it up. Self defense against brigands is another matter from beating the living shit out of basically whatever comes at her in a straight fight.
- Capable force user with a trick of pulling the lightsaber at a time in the movies when Luke, son of a being that was apparently spawned by pure force, was having tons of trouble doing the same.
- Han has many more years around the Falcon then she's had in her life. I'm skeptical that she'd be fully adept at the things he is.
- No, that is not 'how the force is', because the only place where that kind of logic could be sustained is in the Phantom Menace where a 9 year old that was apparently made of pure Force (total bullshit plot there, but bear with me) was able to pull droids from his ass and blow up starships single handedly. Luke was fully developed as a human being and given some training in the force by Kenobi at least. And then said 9 year old pretty much fell right into line with the masters by not following the same scale in the second movie onwards as far as power. Someone untrained and unpracticed in the force I believe to be well established as someone who simply can't use it effectively unless given proper training. She had the full grip before training even began, and when it did, she basically had it all on the spot. She's either Palpatine's granddaughter (or some equivalent, but if it's the former, I'll somewhat understand and possibly even like the development if done right) or her balancing is skewed.

Good thing that's not what Rey's deal is.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Ren is hardly inept, just emotionally immature, and it's hard to say that the First Order is idiotic considering they're basically winning the conflict and literally made their stamp on the galaxy by taking out the center of the new government. Snoke's wisdom starts and stops with him having knowledge of the Force and basic manipulation tactics. The First Order is made up of people who retreated after the end of the last war, they're Imperial loyalists and those birthed into it, fanatics in other terms. The main problem with them is that their goals are ill defined, but that's because the First Order and the Resistance are just tools to further the development of the main characters.

I've seen nothing to indicate Ren has a remotely strategic or even cunning mind, and plenty to see as far as his failures. As an antagonist, I'm pretty unconcerned of the idea of the guy chasing me. Even more so of the fleet that saw itself heavily damaged by dropped bombs in circumstances that could have been rather easily avoided by proper troop deployments. The leader in that scene (whatever his name is, escapes me) I remember best for having a face, voice and presentation (the dialogue... god) better suited to a comedy version of nazi germany than a leader part of the remnants of a fairly professional empire that had many able commanders (surely, not all of them were killed on the second death star >.>). Snoke is a macguffin of power (or if I'm being critical, a wannabe Palpatine, which I don't go into because I acknowledge that a subplot could be that everyone is simply weaker because the truly skilled forces for light and dark are badly depleted), so not much can really be said to where anything about him begins and ends despite his very stupid death.

It's the Resistance, the Rebel Alliance stopped being a thing when they won the war. The Resistance scrounged together an offensive that destroyed a system-killing weapon and then took out a dreadnought (albeit in an engagement with too high a cost) all while being understaffed and underfunded. There's no real government anymore and the Resistance never had the official backing of the Republic anyway. They aren't doing so badly for a bunch of people with dwindling numbers.

Their individual decisions badly annoy me. I'll let this guy do the point by point, though he goes a bit deeper than I do in various bits, and I'm not in agreement with every point. I expect better from the next generation of the same entity with similar leadership, including Leia.

I disagree entirely. The fact that the guy who staunchly refused to fight his father and the evil raisin man would then go on to do the most Jedi thing in the history of Jedi is a fitting coda to his character.

More to him than that, but I doubt going on about it would get anywhere.

Star Wars has never had dumbass stuff in it. Not like the central conceit of a magical entity that is 'blue is good, red is bad' is dumb or anything!

You'd think those elements would be reduced, not expanded.

*Will Add This To The First Post*

So Bright isn't a good movie. But just like Hotel Artemis, its bad in some very interesting ways. UNLIKE Hotel Artemis, despite what even some of it's critics might say it's not a case of wasted potential, because it had very little potential to begin with.

The whole premise is a watercooler idea for a movie 'Training Day Meets Lord Of The Rings'. Despite it sounding like a wacky and fun thing you might come up with on a very under the influence 'deep' convo with the bros, it's a shit idea that was never going to work, and hamfisting overt racial commentary didn't do the film any fucking favors either. Let's start with the acting.

The Acting was passable for most of the characters, nothing too horrific apart from some of the hammy 'bigoted bad guy cop rants' that just felt forced. Smith and Edgerton for the most part achieved what they were going for, but then the roles weren't very demanding. The elf girl was fucking awful, and so were the FBI guys. Everyone else just kind of punched their work ticket and got it done.

The Characters is where the movie failed the hardest. You have a 'buddy cop' thing and neither of the characters are particularly likeable. This film fell victim to the 'Will Smith character' syndrome. We all have seen enough Will Smith films to see the 3 or 4 versions of his typecast personality role. And be clear, it's not that he can't act, he can actually act very well, he just doesn't play diverse roles, largely because he doens't need to. He can be one thing so well that it will still make a movie entertaining without sacrificing a good performance. But we always know what to expect, so sometimes character development comes across a little pointless.

This film seems to have fallen for that phenomena, its like David Ayer thought, "Hey, everyone knows and likes Will Smith, so his character will be likeable by default, no matter what he does in the film". So you have this barely developed, pissed-off, rude, violent, condescending ass of a cop, who's only redeeming feature is that the person playing him is named Will Smith. It's the laziest shortcut I've ever seen and it might be what pisses me off most considering the entire film falls apart when your main character isn't likeable.

Joel Edgerton did a very good job with what he was given, but what he was given was shit. He was supposed to be the sweet-hearted oppressed minority in the police force that you felt sorry for. And sometimes, you did. But his whole, overly nice, bumbling eccentric thing took away from him being a serious police partner. He was just like this big soft punching bag for Will Smith to be a dick to, it wasn't fun to watch and it didn't add to their mediocre chemistry. Also a lot of time fleshing him out was wasted on exposition for the fantasy and the world which brings us on to probably the criticism everyone wanted to hear...

The Worldbuilding and Setting couldn't have been done worse. The film was not anywhere near long enough to appropriately build a fantasy world on its own (look how long the LOTR films are), let alone a fantasy world ON TOP of an urban crime setting. Things are introduced and never explained, the 'origin story of the great war' is rushed in, and the supernatural elements feel cheap and under-utilised but then over utilised to patch up lazy story telling and crappy internal logic.

The obvious and most offensive is the 'racial aspect' of the fantasy races which was never going to work, because racial allegories, need to be subtle and well developed to create a believable metaphor to real life. Bright has Orcs in chains and gold teeth throwing up gang-signs and all but loudly tells you they are 'black or hispanics in the ghetto'. But it's stupid because there already are blacks and hispanics in the ghetto, and it's where the movie is set, it already has the racial observation of real life, so why do you need orcs as a metaphor? It's so LAZY they wanted to make a hard hitting point about race without even deciding what the point was going to be.

And then the Elves live in the elite and hipster part of L.A. all very afluent and cut off from the rest of the city. I couldn't decide if they were supposed to just represent 'rich people' or 'rich white people' or more worryingly 'jews', and I don't think the movie could decide either. It wanted to shoe-horn a well known fanatsy race to make a point about 'privileged groups' without doing any of the hard work. I could go on and on all day but the film only made a quasi effort with the setting because of..

The Plot isnt as awful as the world building but it's so fucking GENERIC it actually hurts the film more. You have a world with all these wacky elements and the film worries if you don't have the most cliche'd trope riddled, 'Chosen one' 'Buddy Cop' 'Magic Artifact' one dimensional adventure film then the audience might get confused. Well you can't save the film from being confusing so you can at least try and make the story interesting but they didn't there is nothing interesting to say about how the story is told, it just hits all the predictable beats and ends. Which wouldn't be a huge problem if the two leads were likable but they weren't.

This film was also wrapped in controversy for being hated by critics but loved by 'audiences'. I think people need to understand that you can like a bad film and no one can tell you otherwise, but bad is still bad and calling it 'fun' and 'enjoyable' is not a defense. Do you know what's a genuinely enjoyable film?

You Got Served

Go on watch it again, you'll love the time you have with it, but you'll never call it a good film, and you shouldn't.

What film should I do next?

I think it's a common misconception among fans of the new trilogy that she has the same kind of development as Luke in terms of evolving from virtually nothing into a force competent power. There is a difference between 'incredibly independent' and incredibly skilled on a relatively out of the way world who is not underskilled in anything. I see no real challenges for her. I see little weakness. I see little to grow from, and as a result, I simply don't see the growth. I see the same person in the next movie as I saw in the first movie. Luke was heavily flawed, heavily unskilled save for a couple things (and certainly nowhere near as adept with the Force as she proves to be off the bat). He was rather relatable off the bat for his many flaws, each of which he overcame. I saw little of that in Rey. And that is where I feel she falls flat.

Luke was hardly 'heavily unskilled'. He's a guy that on separate occasions boasts that he can fly better than a professional pilot and military individuals despite his only piloting experience basically being with hovercrafts and then goes on to literally be the ace pilot that saves the day despite it being his first time in any actual combat experience. Rey's development isn't a 1:1 replica of Luke just like how TFA isn't actually a remake of ANH and people suggesting it as such do a disservice to both. But there are purposeful parallels between the two. The difference is that Luke is an active character while Rey isn't and that doesn't make her bad because of it, but it's why it takes the efforts of the surrounding cast to propel her.

Luke and Rey are both stuck in places they don't actually want to be. Luke wants to go off and join the Rebels like his friends but his aunt and uncle won't let him; Rey has heard tales and has grown up in the wreckage of the final battle of the previous war and would very much like to be a pilot but she's desperately clinging to the truth she refuses to see. Luke actively takes steps to leave even before he's blatantly forced to while Rey would have been content in the scavving life - not happy, but content were it not for the conflict rolling up on her. It's why Rey spends the entire first two acts of the movie trying to get back home and why by the end of it her goal has changed and she's started to become more active.

The Rey from the start of TFA is different from the Rey in TLJ though the more negative aspects of her personality are still ever present. They Rey from the start of TFA would not ever have chosen to go after Kylo, if the character remained the same she would've gone back to Jakku after Starkiller Base. Her challenges are, as they are with the central four characters, finding their place in the galaxy. Rey and Ren are both dealing with disappointment from their father figures but one is realizing that there's a better way and the other is compromised and desperate. Rey is in the unique position of having to carry on a legacy that used to mean something and having to do so on her own terms and merits. That's a challenge in itself, and that's without the more personal challenge of saving her friends, which she accomplishes.

How adept with the Force is Rey truly, though? We have yet to see her do anything truly incredible with it. What we've seen Rey do amounts to the Jedi Mind Trick (not exactly a Jedi Master ability) and move rocks around - and Luke was able to move stuff even before Yoda and with what looked like basic sensory training on one trip. Her skill with a lightsaber is questionable, it's not like she's standing toe to toe with a master, and she's arguably more skilled in combat than the Force anyway. Maz Kanata gives Rey the rundown and then Rey puts it into practice, and the Maz Kanata scene is essentially Rey taking steps to being more true and honest with herself, and in turn a more active character.

Rey's been developed quite well, it's just that much of it is internal - except for Maz literally spelling out how Rey wants to belong.

A different set of surroundings and saying 'wellp, I have a point now' to your already developed abilities after seeing each test easily surpassed is another matter entirely. As far as beating Kylo Ren, consider that Rey isn't even remotely trained in lightsaber combat, while Ren was given considerable training in that as well as general force abilities. He was underpresented and she was overpresented.

Finn has zero lightsaber training or experience and fights Kylo. He loses but it's not like he lost utterly and completely. He holds his own fairly well, even having a clash that ends because of the cross guard and then Finn goes on to actually strike Ren with the saber. Ren is emotionally unstable and nursing a pretty glaring wound. When Rey first engages Kylo, she looks uncertain, confused, and afraid. She's swinging wildly. Her opening move is a lunge, and Kylo is effortlessly fucking with her. She gets put on the defensive almost right away to the point where she starts to run away. She cuts a tree to try and put distance between herself and Kylo. She gets backed into a corner - because the Starkiller Base is being destroyed and she's pushed to the edge of a newly formed cliff that would kill her. Cue Kylo's recruitment spiel and Rey hearing "The Force" and remembering what Maz told her earlier in the movie.

It's only here that Rey goes on the offensive, getting two hits in before they essentially have a physical struggle which Rey ultimately wins because Kylo wasn't looking. For the majority of their fight, Kylo was absolutely the one with the upper hand. It wasn't like Rey won effortlessly.

- Great fighter including with a lightsaber just by picking it up. Self defense against brigands is another matter from beating the living shit out of basically whatever comes at her in a straight fight.

See above comment.

- Capable force user with a trick of pulling the lightsaber at a time in the movies when Luke, son of a being that was apparently spawned by pure force, was having tons of trouble doing the same.

The circumstances were different for both cases. Luke was disoriented and had been hung upside down for a considerable amount of time - and in both cases Luke and Rey close their eyes to tap into the Force to accomplish their goals.

- Han has many more years around the Falcon then she's had in her life. I'm skeptical that she'd be fully adept at the things he is.

Rey works on ships for Plutt. That includes the Falcon. She knows the workings of the Falcon at this point because she was there when it was modified while Han was not. It's like if someone bought a used car, put in new parts, and the owner came back and was wondering why the handling was different.

- No, that is not 'how the force is', because the only place where that kind of logic could be sustained is in the Phantom Menace where a 9 year old that was apparently made of pure Force (total bullshit plot there, but bear with me) was able to pull droids from his ass and blow up starships single handedly. Luke was fully developed as a human being and given some training in the force by Kenobi at least. And then said 9 year old pretty much fell right into line with the masters by not following the same scale in the second movie onwards as far as power. Someone untrained and unpracticed in the force I believe to be well established as someone who simply can't use it effectively unless given proper training. She had the full grip before training even began, and when it did, she basically had it all on the spot. She's either Palpatine's granddaughter (or some equivalent, but if it's the former, I'll somewhat understand and possibly even like the development if done right) or her balancing is skewed.

What training was he given by Kenobi, exactly? He put on a helmet and deflected a few bolts from a game droid. He didn't even have any actual formal training until Empire and yet at the end of A New Hope he blatantly uses the Force to blow up the Death Star - just because Kenobi told him to "Use the Force". Which is almost exactly how Rey manages to win the fight, just without Lupita Nyongo whispering it in her ear. Nothing Rey did is out of the ordinary given what we see of her experiences in the movie.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Will we? Considering that TLJ confirms that Rey's literally no one special (which was also brought up in TFA) and that they would be stupid to run it back in episode 9.

I've seen nothing to indicate Ren has a remotely strategic or even cunning mind, and plenty to see as far as his failures. As an antagonist, I'm pretty unconcerned of the idea of the guy chasing me.

He's not cunning or strategic, which is why Hux was about to kill him in that brief window. What he is is unhinged and angry and he has a rather large army at his disposal. The First Order has numbers now that there's no government and the Resistance is scrounging for numbers in the Outer Rim. The fact that he's not a strategist, but an emotional figure is the entire point. Here's someone who has an absolute authority over a military and a vendetta against those who slighted him. The threat comes from the fact that he's willing to use the army for his own selfish goals and it's not like there's a governmental or military body set to oppose him.

Even more so of the fleet that saw itself heavily damaged by dropped bombs in circumstances that could have been rather easily avoided by proper troop deployments. The leader in that scene (whatever his name is, escapes me) I remember best for having a face, voice and presentation (the dialogue... god) better suited to a comedy version of nazi germany than a leader part of the remnants of a fairly professional empire that had many able commanders (surely, not all of them were killed on the second death star >.>).

Of course they weren't all killed in the second Death Star, that wasn't even the end of the war. But the Imperial Remnant retreated and licked their wounds/built their numbers back up. The First Order's biggest loss so far has been of a dreadnought (Which is still a decent loss) and its leader, but it at least remains a unified force. The Resistance lost most of its leadership in the wake of Starkiller Base. The First Order is still ahead in the current war as it stands now.

Snoke is a macguffin of power (or if I'm being critical, a wannabe Palpatine, which I don't go into because I acknowledge that a subplot could be that everyone is simply weaker because the truly skilled forces for light and dark are badly depleted), so not much can really be said to where anything about him begins and ends despite his very stupid death.

Snoke was dumb and killing him to make the actual interesting character the antagonist was the best possible move.

More to him than that, but I doubt going on about it would get anywhere.

You're right. He's also noted as being rash and prone to poor decision making, overconfidence and poor planning, and ultimately heroic when the need calls for it. He carried on the traditions of his teachers pretty flawlessly too.

You'd think those elements would be reduced, not expanded.

Expanding on the concepts is what lead to the only decent bit of Star Wars there is, which was an entire narrative about how the Force is stupid and makes no sense. The attempt to make the Force anything less than space wizard mana points was incredibly idiotic and running it back to "Literally anyone can be a Jedi" is a core value of Star Wars that is half the reason so many people like to flail around sticks in the backyard as if they were lightsabers.

I'll not comment farther on Rey's character, presentation and abilities between TFA and TLJ because I simply haven't seen the movies enough to debate in specifics regarding presentation and exactly why I get very different vibes between the protagonists and story handling. So it is probably simpler to concede and perhaps pick up the topic another time like that'll happen, rite. I'll stick to the things I can actually argue, and indeed, care to argue, because I'm not going to dig up the movies just so I can debate the finer points of space magic and characters/plot I'm not particularly interested in for more than a couple of posts.

The circumstances were different for both cases. Luke was disoriented and had been hung upside down for a considerable amount of time - and in both cases Luke and Rey close their eyes to tap into the Force to accomplish their goals.

Luke was more familiar with the process and mechanics by that time, despite his injuries, and the span of distance was way, way shorter.

What training was he given by Kenobi, exactly? He put on a helmet and deflected a few bolts from a game droid. He didn't even have any actual formal training until Empire and yet at the end of A New Hope he blatantly uses the Force to blow up the Death Star - just because Kenobi told him to "Use the Force". Which is almost exactly how Rey manages to win the fight, just without Lupita Nyongo whispering it in her ear. Nothing Rey did is out of the ordinary given what we see of her experiences in the movie.

Aside from the implication (at least, as I think) that there was more practice than was shown on screen, it's a heck of a lot more than nothing at all and a better background for using tweaks of the force than, again, nothing that counts as tangible practice.

He's not cunning or strategic, which is why Hux was about to kill him in that brief window. What he is is unhinged and angry and he has a rather large army at his disposal. The First Order has numbers now that there's no government and the Resistance is scrounging for numbers in the Outer Rim. The fact that he's not a strategist, but an emotional figure is the entire point. Here's someone who has an absolute authority over a military and a vendetta against those who slighted him. The threat comes from the fact that he's willing to use the army for his own selfish goals and it's not like there's a governmental or military body set to oppose him.

I'm curious if you clicked the link.

Snoke was dumb and killing him to make the actual interesting character the antagonist was the best possible move.

Why not make a more intelligent character in the first place?

You're right. He's also noted as being rash and prone to poor decision making, overconfidence and poor planning, and ultimately heroic when the need calls for it. He carried on the traditions of his teachers pretty flawlessly too.

The former elements were learning experiences that he ultimately took from later on, and his nature was a heck of a lot more open than the prequel jedi who failed to do any form of adapting at all. Carries on the tradition indeed.

Expanding on the concepts is what lead to the only decent bit of Star Wars there is, which was an entire narrative about how the Force is stupid and makes no sense.

Great, you have your 'force is stupid' movies. I'll isolate them from the ones that give the marginal attempt to take themselves seriously in the first place, despite plentiful flaws and the fast and loose nature of Lucas lore (probably why there's so many ideas of what's canon in the first place, ei?)

The attempt to make the Force anything less than space wizard mana points

I think you mean anything more, as anything less would pretty much make it a shapeless blob of 'meh, something happened, it's magic, whatever' which Lucas may have bought into for 9 year old Anakin. At that point it's all such an obvious load of bullshit you might as well host a public roleplay with everyone as jump-in and latch star wars to the name to see what comes of it. Anything more would define rules, standards for how it would work, systems of balancing, practice resulting in greater manifest of abilities, etc. An expansion to the potential of the ideas presented in the originals and... somewhat... carried on in the prequels. Naturally, everyone takes it to different extents. Everyone has their interpretation. All we'll end up arguing is how we think the Force should operate when the only boundaries to exist rest in the interpretations of the originals, built up with the prequels (or not, as some see fit to interpret), and any further content from there ranging from the self contradictory Legends book material to comics to Clone Wars/Rebels to Disney's line of interpretation. It's pick and choose in the end. But I'd prefer things in the main line to put a little more energy into staying persistent with itself. And honestly, I have as many problems with the prequels, perhaps more, on this count than anything else produced for Star Wars.

What film should I do next?

You should do some of Neil Breen's movies if you've got the guts to sit through some more. He's just released his 5th movie Twisted Pair if you can get your hands on it, Pass Thru is also pretty recent.

I liked Bright.

Bright was a terrible movie, but I’ll admit it was an absurd enough concept to be entertaining. It’s just another example of why Will smith is not as good of an actor as people say he is though. Every other sub-par name in that movie almost outshines him when she should be the brightest guy on set. Its exceptionally stereotypical narrative on racism still makes me a little sad. But I wasn’t expecting much when I saw that it was going to try and mash two diametrically opposed genres together. It was like throwing a rocks and glass into a blender.

New star wars movies are good tho js. Probably compete with the original movies in a lot of regards, which for the record, were flooded with inconsistencies and were not nearly as good as people like to think. But I don’t think star wars was ever defined by its exceptional plot. It was always a fun little series with cool ideas that rarely broke immersion to me.

I hate Star Wars but I can't help myself from talking about it. It is my Sisyphean torture. I appreciate that it's been civil which seems like a rarity within Stahr Wahrs. Of course I do agree that Rey's character isn't as well defined as the OT trio, but she's at least above prequel tier. And I get it, I get the issues many have, there's a lot of greater issues with the sequels (like a lack of a defined plan), but episode 8 was like a reminder why I thought Star Wars was neato skeeto. That said, once more around the horn.

Luke was more familiar with the process and mechanics by that time, despite his injuries, and the span of distance was way, way shorter.

I'm not sure distance matters quite as much. Rey was in fight or flight mode and the lightsaber 'called to her' so the script said earlier. The Force doesn't mean someone needs training to tap into it - Broom Kid is proof enough of that - but given that Rey is 'embracing her destiny' with that moment, it's equal parts dramatic coda and character defining. Luke was under duress and struggled and Rey struggled as well - against Kylo who was also trying to get the saber.

Aside from the implication (at least, as I think) that there was more practice than was shown on screen, it's a heck of a lot more than nothing at all and a better background for using tweaks of the force than, again, nothing that counts as tangible practice.

I don't think there's much of an issue with a lack of 'practice' given that all we ever see Luke do on screen is deflect bolts, move his saber, and do some gymnastics with rocks. Episode 6 has the implication that he went back for more training but the same isn't exactly said for episode 5. Luke's training was never really the vital point so much as it was expansion of the Force - that even someone like Yoda could do extraordinary things. Luke in the movies isn't exactly the most competent of Jedi even with his masters being two of the best.

I'm curious if you clicked the link.

I clicked it, yes, but I didn't watch it. I intend to if only because it's probably a perspective that I can't exactly have.

Why not make a more intelligent character in the first place?

You'll have to ask Kasdan and Abrams for that. I don't disagree, which is why Snoke dying is the best thing they could've done.

The former elements were learning experiences that he ultimately took from later on, and his nature was a heck of a lot more open than the prequel jedi who failed to do any form of adapting at all. Carries on the tradition indeed.

The Jedi are constant failures no matter what point of history it is, so Luke does carry on the tradition of failing and learning from it only when an opportune moment arises to do so. It's what makes his ultimate fate in TLJ so satisfying because he learns his greatest lesson and does the single coolest thing a Jedi has done on screen. Luke was awesome.

Great, you have your 'force is stupid' movies. I'll isolate them from the ones that give the marginal attempt to take themselves seriously in the first place, despite plentiful flaws and the fast and loose nature of Lucas lore (probably why there's so many ideas of what's canon in the first place, ei?)

Well it's not a movie but a game, and it does take itself and the mythos seriously. Some would say too seriously.

I think you mean anything more, as anything less would pretty much make it a shapeless blob of 'meh, something happened, it's magic, whatever' which Lucas may have bought into for 9 year old Anakin. At that point it's all such an obvious load of bullshit you might as well host a public roleplay with everyone as jump-in and latch star wars to the name to see what comes of it. Anything more would define rules, standards for how it would work, systems of balancing, practice resulting in greater manifest of abilities, etc. An expansion to the potential of the ideas presented in the originals and... somewhat... carried on in the prequels. Naturally, everyone takes it to different extents. Everyone has their interpretation. All we'll end up arguing is how we think the Force should operate when the only boundaries to exist rest in the interpretations of the originals, built up with the prequels (or not, as some see fit to interpret), and any further content from there ranging from the self contradictory Legends book material to comics to Clone Wars/Rebels to Disney's line of interpretation. It's pick and choose in the end. But I'd prefer things in the main line to put a little more energy into staying persistent with itself. And honestly, I have as many problems with the prequels, perhaps more, on this count than anything else produced for Star Wars.

I think a major problem is because The Force is so ill defined that it creates situations where expanding it just creates more problems. Star Wars works best when it's not taken super seriously, but that doesn't mean serious and good stories can't be told within universe.

I hate Star Wars but I can't help myself from talking about it. It is my Sisyphean torture. I appreciate that it's been civil which seems like a rarity within Stahr Wahrs. Of course I do agree that Rey's character isn't as well defined as the OT trio, but she's at least above prequel tier. And I get it, I get the issues many have, there's a lot of greater issues with the sequels (like a lack of a defined plan), but episode 8 was like a reminder why I thought Star Wars was neato skeeto. That said, once more around the horn.

My primary issue with Star Wars these days isn't the amount of holes you can pick from it, but from the fanatical lining up into camps. I am both a disney shill to some and a complete sexist dickbag to others for expressing generally the same line of opinions because while I dislike various elements, there are others which I can excuse. Everyone else has their own limits, and they take the entire affair so seriously that their interpretation is gospel. It's amusing and sad. Going above prequel tier is really not a great accomplishment, but while I have many fundamental bones with the new disney trilogy, I consider it foolish to say that problems in continuity, character development and mmany more aspects only started there. I'd say the problem comes from Star Wars itself and the loose continuity of its own original creators. An action movie series more intent on the wows and raw impact of its time that is taken far too seriously. It was never even meant to be expanded and nitpicked as far as it has. I know, the irony of me nitpicking it now.

I'm not sure distance matters quite as much. Rey was in fight or flight mode and the lightsaber 'called to her' so the script said earlier. The Force doesn't mean someone needs training to tap into it - Broom Kid is proof enough of that - but given that Rey is 'embracing her destiny' with that moment, it's equal parts dramatic coda and character defining. Luke was under duress and struggled and Rey struggled as well - against Kylo who was also trying to get the saber.

I chalk that scene down to cinematic convenience and the aforementioned wow effect that isn't really meant to have much logical depth behind it. My main issue is that based on what I've seen of star wars over the years, distance does play a part. It is good to bring up the 'fight or flight' line of logic as I can factor it in as a rather potent modifier for the scene, but I think the distance was a bit excessive for someone who simply never went in that direction in the first place. But, again, it is not something I can argue any further for, as I simply don't have enough familiarity with the scene nor enough ideas of how it fits into everything else for me to be confident in trying to press my case home.

I don't think there's much of an issue with a lack of 'practice' given that all we ever see Luke do on screen is deflect bolts, move his saber, and do some gymnastics with rocks. Episode 6 has the implication that he went back for more training but the same isn't exactly said for episode 5. Luke's training was never really the vital point so much as it was expansion of the Force - that even someone like Yoda could do extraordinary things. Luke in the movies isn't exactly the most competent of Jedi even with his masters being two of the best.

He is far from the most competent, to be sure, but I dismiss any claims that the practice he did receive was not instrumental in him being able to use what force he could, as well as he did. I factor in the idea that more happens with characters than what is literally displayed on screen. You do not see every detail, but that does not mean nothing happened - you might as well say Leia just stared at the interrogation droid in the very first movie if one only considers what happened on screen after the various cuts of film.

I clicked it, yes, but I didn't watch it. I intend to if only because it's probably a perspective that I can't exactly have.

I don't fully agree with him or his presentation, but I think there are plenty of good points raised that I do agree with that serve as a good part of my distaste for the latest offerings.

You'll have to ask Kasdan and Abrams for that. I don't disagree, which is why Snoke dying is the best thing they could've done.

Sure, if one sticks with the idea that all you can do is continue. I simply cannot acknowledge that their proofreading and ideas were so poor in the first place that you first have a flimsy character stringing along the 'big bad' trope who then goes out in a similarly poor way. It's the kind of handling that I think is found across both movies, and it's the sort of thing that makes me dislike them.

The Jedi are constant failures no matter what point of history it is, so Luke does carry on the tradition of failing and learning from it only when an opportune moment arises to do so. It's what makes his ultimate fate in TLJ so satisfying because he learns his greatest lesson and does the single coolest thing a Jedi has done on screen. Luke was awesome.

Luke fails, and then he learns. That's what I like about him, really. The Jedi are clearly all about cycles; they become stagnant, end up with an existential crisis as a result, have a generation that learns the hard way, and proceeds to come out on top because they learned. I could argue that's at the heart of Star Wars, the cycle of learning and eventually forgetting. That's part of why I don't carry too far on into future Luke, because while I don't like how the scenes with him turned out, I do think some of the ideas that went into them had potential. To say someone cannot become a failure with age is simply to be buried in pointless nostalgia.

I think a major problem is because The Force is so ill defined that it creates situations where expanding it just creates more problems. Star Wars works best when it's not taken super seriously, but that doesn't mean serious and good stories can't be told within universe.

Like everything else, it requires it to be done properly. A cohesive Force that isn't totally fleshed out but has many more defined elements than not is something I'd advocate. The problem is
- The prequels muddled and bungled it
- Legends totally muddled, contradicted, butchered, pieced together, etc etc it
- The original creators weren't particularly consistent about it
- Disney walks in and pretty much continues the cycle

I have my own set of ideas for how the force operates, as I'm sure many others do, because what is provided is simply too vague at the source (although that is a good thing in its own right) and then expanded in too many directions (among people who are supposed to be making canon shit. Not a good thing).

What I'm primarily looking for is not necessarily for each aspect of things to be explicitly defined, but instead easily argued for and consistent with itself in basically all presentations that are supposed to make canon and thus give easy food for people to expand on from there without going "so that movie does this... but wait, another movie does this, shit... wait, why are those guys totally incompetent- wha-" etc. In this, I engage pretty much the entirety of Star Wars, not just the disney contributions. And while I haven't thrown much shade at the originals, they too created the occasional implausible scenario in their own continuity.

But I wrap this up by going back to the first point, it's all moot because it's an action series created by the world's biggest troll who plainly didn't give that much of a shit about all the dynamics I'm trying to argue for. In short, Lucas is a brilliant troll.

I liked Bright.

But...why?

Bright was a terrible movie, but I’ll admit it was an absurd enough concept to be entertaining. It’s just another example of why Will smith is not as good of an actor as people say he is though. Every other sub-par name in that movie almost outshines him when she should be the brightest guy on set. Its exceptionally stereotypical narrative on racism still makes me a little sad. But I wasn’t expecting much when I saw that it was going to try and mash two diametrically opposed genres together. It was like throwing a rocks and glass into a blender.

Will Smith is a good actor, if anything hes underrated. He's just insanely popular which is a whole different category.

Will Smith's acting wasnt the issue with the film. Pretty much everything else, including his character was.

Also the narrative on racism wasnt stereotypical as much as it was just bizarre amd poorly handled. Itd be a lot less offensive if it was even a little more subtle, but then this guy made suicide squad, so what can you do?

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You should do some of Neil Breen's movies if you've got the guts to sit through some more. He's just released his 5th movie Twisted Pair if you can get your hands on it, Pass Thru is also pretty recent.

Hmm see the problem is that everyone who has seen a Neil Breen movie loves them and everyone knows exactly why they love them. There is nothing really controversial to discuss, everyone is on the same page with that series.

I want to do more in-depth discussions on films with themes or elements that most people may or may not have noticed. Or rather choose to ignore.

A good example is that how although absolutely loved by everyone, Ex-Machina is a super super feminist movie and the whole film is about different kinds of feminism reacting to social norms.

But i've commited to talking about bad movies, so I need something divisive. I would have loved to do Wonder Woman or Baby Driver and while those films are massively overrated and poor in many ways, they don't quite reach 'bad' status for this thread.

Fuck it, I'll do Ready Player One.