Have you considered that the Nation RP section, in general, is doomed to fail because it's pretty dead? Only a handful of people keep it alive. Everyone else just isn't in it for various reasons.

Also, mechanic based NRPs aren't that perfect (as this thread implies), you have to worry about it becoming really number crunching. Then, you have to deal with the people that only join it to win rather than tell a story.

EDIT: Just realized something. Doesn't this belong in the Roleplay Discussion subforum?

The premise here is flawed. Its based on the idea that everything we do for fun has to be a game.
Narrative RPs aren't really games. They are strictly social.
You could retitle that article "Why quilting circles are doomed to fail" and it'd show perfectly why it doesn't work
You aren't going to say "Quilting circles fail because granny doesn't want to give up her edge in patches per hour for the good of the quilt"

The flaw in the premise is seeing "mob rule" as the problem. If it is strictly social, then yeh, it's gonna be driven by whatever the group writing it wants it to be driven by. If you and a group of friends don't manage to entertain everybody who ever hangs out or wants to hang out with you, you wouldn't consider that social circle a failure. Some people will drop out of RPs.

If there is any argument for why they fail, its probably because their scope is too big for their members to realize. Five or ten people ain't gonna manage to constantly update a story on time indefinitely. If they manage a year, and some do, then that alone is a major damned success.

Failure is such a subjective term, and defining it yourself in such an over-arching rule is in and of itself highly suspect towards clear biases. I am more interested, really, what success means if failure carries such airs around it in your mind. Not to mention the fact that majority of the problems presented affect all roleplays. I have never really experienced a roleplay that "finished," per example, and from my experience the same applies for a very vast majority of people. Roleplays aren't doomed to fail for any real reason, it is the participants (gm-included) that make any story or setting fail eventually, or miraculously finish before it does.

Mechanics and stats can frankly become incredibly boring, and they aren't exactly as fair as you want them to seem, since you could get bad rolls, get forced into encounters you don't really want to be forced into, and the general "game" mentality itself lends itself towards powergaming and min-maxing which isn't something that should exist in roleplaying in my opinion.

A lot of people disagree, and let them I guess, as there are plenty of "nation games" on the internet and the like, but that seems like such a bore, annoyance, and needlessly brainless experience in my eyes. I write for story, I don't write to win, and if you have another perspective I dare even say it is an unhealthy approach when RPing at all.

I could title this thing "why all roleplays are doomed to fail" and I could pretty much argue much of the same points. It is simply a matter of individuality and personal circumstance that roleplays die off, people lose interest, and maybe even over-excert their enthusiasm. Things could turn up in their lives, forcing them to deal with it, and potentially forget about the roleplay or lose interest. It is a common thing and a general understanding amongst the community of roleplaying at large.

I am in fact mildly surprised someone thinks like you do, no will intended, as I have never really met people like you who seem to prefer treating stories like games where winning is the most important thing.

I do have to agree that is article isn't exactly worth the bits and bytes it was typed on.

If you look at just narrative and just stay based NRPs they Fail (In the broadest and first sense possible) at around the same rare. In fact in my experience, Narrative NRPs survive just that bit longer.

Each system has its pros and cons, Narrative Nation RPs are great for quick and easy social games. I loved the ones I used to do on another site, writing about what was going on and really feeling like I was doing something. Every Star based NRP I ever touched just felt like some basement dwelling meeting where I spent more time with a calculator than I did actually getting a feel for my nation.

The true success of NRPs relies on the middle ground between the two systems. Give the players the ability to exercise their creative mind, but when conflict and cross roads appear have a stat system to resolve things. It's a simple system to play with. Not so exactly easy to set up as a GM though.

One last thing I will say. All NRPs rely on a good GM that will be impartial and fair. The OP mentioned that GMs are open to manipulation based on previous disposition. However, I am inclined to take that with a pinch of salt. All GMs know that if they are not impartial it damages their reputation and makes further RPs more difficult. I am guessing the OP has been subject to it in the past and now holds onto that point like a dog with a bone.

Hope that all makes sense. Still waking up xD

@Archetype Zero Sorry for the ammedum, but naxtially you will find most NRPers are like this. The reason why NRP sections on forums do so badly is because the core player base is a bunch of twisted wound up armchair generals who can't adapt to 'Normal' RPs.

They see NRPs as a game of Risk or Civ, where they play to win. If they are losing, they throw their toys out of the pram and say the mechanics of this game are broken and leave.

I have been RPing in both RP and NRP for nearly 11years and I have always gotten involved in each forums NRP section... Except this one... As it seems the core players are the worse group I have ever met and they seems to have alienated most of the rest of the forum.

@Hedgehawk I have similar periods of time's worth of experience, and I am not exactly unaware of that fact. Not to mention that I am a long-lasting NRP participant, but most RPers are like this. Not just specified to any given corner. NRPs don't mean you are somehow a different person just because it is a different.

Have you considered that the Nation RP section, in general, is doomed to fail because it's pretty dead? Only a handful of people keep it alive. Everyone else just isn't in it for various reasons.

Also, mechanic based NRPs aren't that perfect (as this thread implies), you have to worry about it becoming really number crunching. Then, you have to deal with the people that only join it to win rather than tell a story.

You have a good first point, except my article isn't based solely on Roleplayer Guild within a vacuum but role playing as a whole. Secondly, I would argue that is the point. It is a role playing game, not a role playing story.

@Theodorable No one has even accepted your points as even credible. As a NRP veteran I can tell you that other sites outside of RPG do rather well with narrative NRPs and they live far longer than mechanics based ones.

Your last sentence literally proved my point in my post as well. Roleplaying is a story process, not a game process. We do RP on here not RPG. There is a difference. Not hat I expect you to actually comprehend that as you keep drinking further into that armchair of yours.

If I wasn't so busy with Uni and GMing another RP I would create a NRP and actually show you how you can create a good hybrid that is popular and has good narrative.

If I wasn't so busy with Uni and GMing another RP I would create a NRP and actually show you how you can create a good hybrid that is popular and has good narrative.

Gotta say it would be awesome to have more NRP guides. I've always wanted to play an NRP but the learning curve seems steep and, talking with people in the past, it doesn't seem like newcomers are very welcome. It's hard to know where to start.

I would argue that is the point. It is a role playing game, not a role playing story.

People come to this website and find this forum specifically because they are looking to write and create stories. If they wanted to just play a game they could go on Steam. Even tabletop RPGs still focus on creating a narrative at their heart, even if you've got someone who just wants to kill everything and become all powerful, that's still a story they're telling about who that character is. Even in game-style roleplays with mechanics the aim is still to create a series of events that tie together a satisfying narrative. I find it hard to believe that NRP would be different, otherwise you'd surely just have a bunch of semi-random events crashing into each other.

Not saying that the initial post is wrong (though imo it doesn't seem very actionable for the guide section?), but i think you'd be very hardpressed to find a roleplaying game that wasn't also a story, or any roleplay here on this site that wasn't a story.

I would write guides for NRP if I knew what people would want to know. Also, @Mae, quite certain this is an article.

@Mae I totally understand one of the reasons I have never really gotten involved with NRP here is because the entire group seems rather cliquey. Once my other RP is ticking over well I can look into it for you. I would gladly put on a NRP

I would write guides for NRP if I knew what people would want to know. Also, @Mae, quite certain this is an article.

oh that's right, sorry :D

As for guides, I can't say what others want but I can make some suggestions of what I'd like to know. Something that includes NRP etiquette and a quick breakdown of expected play (that might be different then a normal RP), common terminology that a GM might already expect you to know, and a breakdown of the different types of NRP (and how to get started in them). Not necessarily genre, but I have seen NRPs that follow multiple point perspective within the nation and then others that don't? And I'm sure individual GMs cover it but maybe common mechanics and a little on how they work.

Also, a quick mention of common paths that nations in NRP tend to take to germinate some ideas for the uninitiated like myself. I think alot of my questions about NRP would probably be solved pretty quickly if I just joined one under a GM that's happy to take on newbies, but I worry about stepping on toes / disrupting the veterans and people who actually know what they're doing ;p

@Mae I totally understand one of the reasons I have never really gotten involved with NRP here is because the entire group seems rather cliquey. Once my other RP is ticking over well I can look into it for you. I would gladly put on a NRP

This would be amazing. I'd love to join a NRP designed for newcomers. I can't be the only one interested either, I'm sure you'd get a few curious people. Let me know down the line if you do decide to launch it - I'd try any genre although a highly accurate, brutal historical one might be a little out my wheelhouse.

I'll see what I can conjure.

<Snipped quote by Hedgehawk>

Gotta say it would be awesome to have more NRP guides. I've always wanted to play an NRP but the learning curve seems steep and, talking with people in the past, it doesn't seem like newcomers are very welcome. It's hard to know where to start.

<Snipped quote by Theodorable>

People come to this website and find this forum specifically because they are looking to write and create stories. If they wanted to just play a game they could go on Steam. Even tabletop RPGs still focus on creating a narrative at their heart, even if you've got someone who just wants to kill everything and become all powerful, that's still a story they're telling about who that character is. Even in game-style roleplays with mechanics the aim is still to create a series of events that tie together a satisfying narrative. I find it hard to believe that NRP would be different, otherwise you'd surely just have a bunch of semi-random events crashing into each other.

Not saying that the initial post is wrong (though imo it doesn't seem very actionable for the guide section?), but i think you'd be very hardpressed to find a roleplaying game that wasn't also a story, or any roleplay here on this site that wasn't a story.

"People come to this website and find this forum specifically because they are looking to write and create stories. If they wanted to just play a game they could go on Steam. Even tabletop RPGs still focus on creating a narrative at their heart, even if you've got someone who just wants to kill everything and become all powerful, that's still a story they're telling about who that character is.

I like this quote from you because it proves my point.

The action--the character wanting to kill everything and become all power--BECOMES the narrative.

<Snipped quote by Mae>

"People come to this website and find this forum specifically because they are looking to write and create stories. If they wanted to just play a game they could go on Steam. Even tabletop RPGs still focus on creating a narrative at their heart, even if you've got someone who just wants to kill everything and become all powerful, that's still a story they're telling about who that character is.

I like this quote from you because it proves my point.

The action--the character wanting to kill everything and become all power--BECOMES the narrative.

Actually Theo you are defeating your own point. You can't even argue rationally. Your argument is that Stats are superior to narrative. And yet... Honestly I can't keep typing with this level of stupidity.

Yes the action becomes the narrative, because it is the narrative to start... Geez... What poor @Mae was trying to say is people come here to tell a story, not to pull up a spreadsheet and work out stats and numbers. If they want that they play Civ or games like that. Of course your brain can't seem to understand this point. Despite the fact multiple people tell you otherwise. Why don't you just run off to your little closed group NRPs before you scare other people from joining the genre?

Honestly @Vilageidiotx raised a strong point here: that as a social activity, NRP is like a quilting circle. Or even a Dungeons and Dragons game. How.many DnD campaigns have actually been finished? How many melt down because of lack of interest and they're just running on so long? Stats or.not: does it really matter since at the end of the day it's dealing with people and the flow with any "game" can be disrupted by a major player in it failing to commit as much as the others and stalling things, or disrupting the pattern, and eventually stalling it all. A stat RP may give the absent player's nation a bit of autonomy if the player drops out and leaves through calculating dice rolls but at this point you might as well also just play a solo Crusader Kings game or Europa Universalis; when someone leaves the entire social framework an NRP is built off of sort of collapses too.

To add something else as well, the entire notion that an RP *must* abide by a universal principle is itself a flawed notion because this too also breaks it by disallowing any and all flexibility or depth; or a lot of it. Because while you can so easily say the goal of politics is dominance I could argue the goal of politics is more self preservation; sometimes at the cost of other's preservation but just as well the cost of one's own state. The thought process that all must be for conquest and Social Darwinian exploitation of the others is a toxic concept that does of course kill all social cohesion between the players. At this point a pen and paper civilization game would be appropriate; but you really should consider moving that to Tabletop Games because you're just playing what's a steadily more nerdier Catan.

So go play Catan, you filthy nerds.

Really the most important thing is less to do with an advantage of statistics vs narrative as a competitive thing but the network of relationships, between players and even between characters. Not just internationally as between two diplomats but internally as some regular Joe to a regular Jane. NRP presents a weirdly unique space where as a nation you control not just the state apparatus but the populace at large. You are presented with an infinite possibility of solo stories or vignettes that can be as equally interesting or as important as the high-level politics and House if Cards activity above. All of this combined in and out of borders converges into what is - to steal a Deleuzean term - rhizomatic.

The Rhizome is in the work of Deleuze and Gutarri a descriptor of the relationships of individuals and/or objects to one another forming a web within society or an organization. An organization can also be described as Arboreal, or stratified and hierarchial like government; but the adsymetric rhizomatic relationships of people and groups can still exist within Arboreal systems. What arises really as the narrative failure in an NRP isn't a percieved lack of structure that statistical RPs get to funnel and channel various interactions but an inability by the same crowd to conceptualize parties beyond the political. Internationally politics can be done on the assymetric scale of two diplomats having a close personal relationship, or two spies even. Likewise the character of relationships between two citizens within or anyone of rank can at the least prove as an illustrative means to explore and conceptualize that nation. And people coming up with a hyper detailed application with all the technical specefics drawn out indicates that the relationships between actors to one another, or actors to the structures and objects around them and how they percieve and react to them has not been fully realized. It's coming up short on the essential character if writing a story, any story. Especially one so big as to go beyond any single character or two.

To percieve of a nation as the completed whole of all its parts with it's contradictions resolved overlooks the organic totality of all of it. A society is never without its contradictions from too to bottom and to percieve the body as completed in its final form only does it a disservice. This lends back to the universal notions of "domination" as being the sole narrative goal and not something broader as "self preservation" though that too is a disservice because a national character is derived from its constant metamorphosis shaped by the failures and successes of its moment. A medieval king may be overthrown if he loses a war and thus fails to pay back the duties he levied on his vassal Lords. An election may change and alter the course of an entire nation with a scandal or major event. In these cases the national character changes immensely l. Fortunately these pertain to what is the higher levels of politics and are not ignored. Perhaps more importantly are the minor details that contribute to the evolution: who the king is married to, who has the most social pull at court, who hates who, who are the donors to someone's campaign, whose advertising, who - unrelated in all things - makes the big announcement that catches them off guard? Who is the inventor who develops the next big thing to be revealed later? What are the internal and external material conditions? What role does the epistemic and ontological world view of the culture map onto the decision process? Are there two kids doing an international motorbike your from China to Ethiopia?

I hate to toot my horn but honestly I think this is where Precipice prevails over a lot. Much if what's written in PoW can be considered small fish topics in other RPs. Where someone might write a war strictly from the command post or the map room to detail the high abstractions of war PoW has war told through the soldier's eye and how it effects themselves and their companions; never as completed objects of their own but perpetually unfinished. Precipice has had a royal sibling travel through a dangerously racist America, when she herself was from America. We've had cops and detectives, bandits and rogues, hash pipes and hookers. Two college kids on a motorbike traveling to Ethiopia. A war traumatized cartoonist. Not all of this contributes to a single plot of "domination" or pushing the world off of the Precipice and into War. But it contributes to its own world and self realization. It's as rhizomatic as Thousand Plateaus and as cut and fold as Naked Lunch. Pick a thread in the RO and follow it, there's not one story but a dozen or more.

Tl;Dr - write better, fggts

Moved to Roleplay Discussions as this is neither an Article or a Guide to help improve roleplayer's ability to write or GM. It is an opinion piece.

On that note, just remember to be civil guys. Challenge the opinion, not the person.

Been lurking on mobile while I was travelling for work. Against my better judgement, I will dip my hand into this shitpile.

I agree with @Vilageidiotx that "the premise here is flawed". RPs in general tend to die out or implode more often than they are successful. Many lengthy posts have already been made concerning the reasons why. I tend to lean towards mechanics base gameplay, because that is what I enjoy. I simply prefer that kind of experience. I prefer knowing what my character (or nation) is capable of based on solid data. So many arguments about levels of technology and "how does FTL travel actually work?" arguments could be avoided by some concrete numbers. Something, something about creative constraints only make you more creative. That's just how my mind works.

But I also appreciate the level of writing and creativity that goes into an RP like Precipice of War. I am just not that kind of writer or creative person. It's a bit too abstract for my taste or level of commitment. But for some, it is perfect. And there is really nothing wrong with that and some of the best writers on the guild take part in that exercise.

Roleplaying Games, (and I will say Games because it is a structured form of play used for entertainment regardless of stats/mechanics at its basest form) is what the people involved in said RPG want it to be and can make of it.

I also admire @Theodorables standard of NRP. His games are very popular and many veterans of the NRP section jump on board his interest checks, and one just has to sift through the IC posts to see that interested players really get a feel for their nation and post accordingly.

The reason why NRP sections on forums do so badly is because the core player base is a bunch of twisted wound up armchair generals who can't adapt to 'Normal' RPs.

Making generalizations about armchair generals will only bring the nukes. Such a callous thing to say :)

I have been RPing in both RP and NRP for nearly 11years and I have always gotten involved in each forums NRP section... Except this one... As it seems the core players are the worse group I have ever met and they seems to have alienated most of the rest of the forum.

That's just mean. I'm hurt.

@Theodorable No one has even accepted your points as even credible. As a NRP veteran I can tell you that other sites outside of RPG do rather well with narrative NRPs and they live far longer than mechanics based ones.

Disagree. Actually I seriously question your RP credentials at this point. I have seen many successful ones on spacebattles. Not to mention sufficient velocity where the level of nerd is far beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.

If I wasn't so busy with Uni and GMing another RP I would create a NRP and actually show you how you can create a good hybrid that is popular and has good narrative.

Ok. I dare you. For shitz and giggles.

Gotta say it would be awesome to have more NRP guides. I've always wanted to play an NRP but the learning curve seems steep and, talking with people in the past, it doesn't seem like newcomers are very welcome. It's hard to know where to start.

[@clocktowerechoes] wrote one years ago. I haven't read it since he posted it but I remember thinking it would be good for the community as a whole. Here is the link :)

So go play Catan, you filthy nerds.

Nah. I always lose. And I'm too busy reading up on Rhizomes and Gutarri

Yeah okay so this extends to far more than just Nation with the way he's written it and I'm going to take out an excerpt to demonstrate that.

The initial and most glaring problem of narrative based Nation RP's is that each player exists completely at the whims or favoritism of the GM, or Game Master. Were he a childhood friend, a legitimate argument could be made that events that pertain to your nation or civilization have a tinge of preference to them. Or worse, were you so unfortunate to have a bad experience with the GM, you may find yourself treated unfairly by the curator of the game--or excluded from joining entirely. This sets the stage for an unequal start, which is not gamebreaking in and of itself--as nations do not begin their worldly journey from the same positions in the real world, or most fictional worlds--but rather gamebreaking in the sense that not every one is given the fair shake. A GM whose ideals are based on his own opinions and considerations, cannot, based on the purview of the human condition, give every nation a fair shake, as it were.

The second failure of narrative based RP's is the over dependence on a continued narrative cohesion. Battles are often decided by gentleman's agreement between the participating players. The very premise of this idea is nonsensical and removes the incentive to succeed in lieu of a "functioning narrative." In a narrative based Nation RP--in the equation of deciding battles--you are asking someone to intentionally lose in the interest of story. This forced collectivization can cause resentment or even a tug of war of narrative favoritism in the vein of: "I lost last time, you should lose this time." Mechanic based RP's are black and white, assuming they are designed competently, and the functional requirements implemented are strategy and many other times luck (usually via online die roll or through the assistance of Random.org).

It's the Yu-Gi-Oh! problem. No, really.

To those who know me, they know I'm more than a little obsessed with the franchise and can dig up any old YGO RP from any random place (often to my own detriment because sturgeon's law applies) and what you describe here as why only game systems work is the exact problem I have with most of them. Like, let's think about this for a second.

First, you argue that you're a the whims of the GM and that's bad. To that I say: yeah, no shit. This happens even in D&D campaigns that rule lawyer the shit out of everything. Even if you look at RPing purely as a game, it's still a game you need people for. Not all people are equal. Some people like each-other, others don't. If your group doesn't mesh, no amount of rules is going to fix it. When I get 4 really bad teammates in League of Legends I don't care if I go to win the game when all they've done is berate and heckle me the entire time I was playing. In that same vein, if a GM thinks you're a sub-par writer or doesn't like you personally, no amount of dicerolls are going to save you from being booted. It's the nature of the beast. Par for the course- it's completely illogical to imply that GM bias somehow leaves people on an uneven playing field. Just... look for a different GM? There always needs to be someone overseeing the game, otherwise you just get a chaotic mess. And yes, the guy overseeing it will have biases. If you don't like it, do the job better yourself.

Second, you say that a "gentleman's agreement" is somehow a failure because it will lead to mob mentality, which, afraid as I might be to say it, is kind of a leap in logic. This is where the Yugioh problem comes in. YGO RP's are, obviously, based around a real game, which in turn has a show around it that most RPs draw inspiration from. It ends up causing a lot of problems because nobody can ever figure out how to best structure this. Do we use simulators? RNG our hands? What's the banlist, which cards are allowed? Do we just freeform it? It's a problem every YGO RP faces and, more often than not, those who stick to the real game often become a royal mess. I tried a system like this once, where people RNG their hands. It was a bitchfest. People were petty as all heck when they lost and tried to surrender before even seeing it all the way through, because actually playing the game, as it turns out, creates a lot of salt when people get competetive. This almost ruined the narrative, though I decided to axe it regardless as it wasn't very fun.

My preferred method now is to use a gentleman's agreement, because actually communicating with your players ends up causing the least drama overall, since people know what to expect and what they want. If people are still petty and want to win everything, well, I'll just say they weren't even remotely looking for a narrative to begin with. This isn't a failure, it's a complete incompatibility in priority. By actually forcing people to talk it out you create a more cohesive storyline and can give everyone a fair shot in regard to what you both think is best- and if you really can't get over it, flip a coin. It's the same as what I see reflected here- your thesis is that a narrative Nation RP can never work because Nation is more suited to be a game. It's completely asinine if you ask me. Why should losing be a punishment? Losing is a form of growth. Learning from mistakes not only makes characters stronger, but also nations. Taking severe casualties and being in dire straits sounds like a fun position to be in, because now you have to write as in going on the offensive and possibly getting the biggest upset possible.

People looking for a story are going to build a story, come what may. It might take more time than a stats game, because a stats game is a lot easier to figure out, but with enough dedication anything is possible. Insinuating that stats are superior to people talking it out is ludicrous because it's two whole different notions of fun. Stats can die out just as well if the game just, well, sucks.

Of course I'm coming from the perspective of someone who doesn't RP in Nation, but I see the argument reflected into a phenomenon I am all too familiar with, so I thought I'd share regardless. It's just unfair to say something is doomed to fail if you don't intend on giving it a fair shake.