<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>
No, I assumed it was your hill.

If a game has numerous bad/mobile-game practices. Why waste so much time defending it?

Also, realize that I've not made any "pay to win" arguments. All of its defenders have. And it screams, lady doth protest too much.

Do you think I'm pro-censorship and also an advocate for diversity in media? Because I am one of those things and I'll give you three guesses as to which I am and two don't count. I can be an advocate for diversity and also think "changing a character in a video game is a bad way to do it".

You're moving the goalposts now, by the way. No one made a pay to win argument here. We're not youtubers or redditors making claims. I'm only 'defending' it because I'm taking the opposite stance to yours in that I made the radical statement that the game can have monetization and not be pay to win. I have said more than once that I don't really like the game all that much.

But a game that is free to play is absolutely going to find some way to make money. That's just the reality of the world. Nothing commercial is made without profit in mind.

da fuk is Lost Ark?

A free to play Korean MMOARPG that is popular because it happened to come out just before the internet cums its pants over Elden Ring

not sure what you're on about, i have like almost 30 hours in it

If my humor doesn't compute. Reboot your system.

And only 30 hours on an MMO? Pff Newbz.

But you shouldn't be shilling for free, ya know. Amazon's paying peeps $100 bucks daily to play it. So hit 'em up, and make sure you also mention how good it is that you can dodge roll attacks in it. And how you don't see that in any MMO's.

Beside Guild Wars, New World, *starts listing endlessly to make a point without actually wasting effort to look them up.*

Fuck I wish there were better free to play MMO's on Switch, the best thing to come close to something I enjoy is Warframe but god daaaamn I want a fantasy MMORPG on the bloody hunk of junk that is the Switch.

If I had money, or rather enough money I'd switch (lol) to PC.

and make sure you also mention how good it is that you can dodge roll attacks in it. And how you don't see that in any MMO's.

Beside Guild Wars, New World, *starts listing endlessly to make a point without actually wasting effort to look them up.*

I can't help but feel like you're making fun of my earlier statement while also getting said statement wrong.

An advocate for diversity in media

But a game that is free to play is absolutely going to find some way to make money.

1. Yeah. There's a right and wrong way to add inclusion. But advocates don't tend to care about how its done/how much sense it makes. So long as it happens. And look at how fucking terrifying they made that character's face.

2. See above. There's a right and wrong way to handle your game and its practices. When you encourage players "to get rid of the grind", what do you think happened first? A. They saw player feedback and added paid options to help. B. They designed the game to be slow, monotonous and grindy. To add paid options to get impatient and frustrated players to spend their money.

Also, any time I see a defender of something use a "this bad too" argument. They don't seem to grasp that the arguer will more than likely dislike those practices even more than the one that's now bringing them up. (Because they're only doing it for 'whataboutisms' for their defense. And not through genuine concern or actual critique of bad consumer practices, which motives the one doing the criticizing in the first place.)

So, to sum this up in the best way possible.

"Pay to win games can be good guys. guys. And bad games can suck for other reasons. Guys guys." Is a shit argument.

And if you like something and actually want it to succeed, you'd critique it's negative points and bad consumer practices. My two cents anyway.

u can dodge roll though which is something a bit more unique to the MMO space.

I can't help but feel like you're making fun of my earlier statement, while also getting said statement wrong.

My humor can indeed be hyperbolic, yes. But um yeah, dodge rolling (or jumping) is not unique to Lost Ark. Not even a bit.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

1. Yeah. There's a right and wrong way to add inclusion. But advocates don't tend to care about how its done/how much sense it makes. So long as it happens.

Oh that's BULLSHIT and you know it.

2. See above. There's a right and wrong way to handle your game and its practices. When you encourage players "to get rid of the grind", what do you think happened first? A. They saw player feedback and added paid options to help. B. They designed the game to be slow, monotonous and grindy. To add paid options to get impatient and frustrated players to spend their money.

Option A, because I'm not a cynical asshole assuming the worst all the time. I still have yet to hear from you, yes YOU and not some random commenter on Reddit what exactly is the issue with Lost Ark and its monetization.

Also, any time I see a defender of something use a "this bad too" argument. They don't seem to grasp that the arguer will more than likely dislike those practices even more than the one that's now bringing them up. (Because they're only doing it for 'whataboutisms' for their defense. And not through genuine concern or actual critique of bad consumer practices, which motives the one doing the criticizing in the first place.)

Something can be bad. Another thing can be worse. The worse thing doesn't forgive the bad thing but that's not what's being said. My initial statement was 'there are worse games to go after than Lost Ark when it comes to bad monetization'. That's not me saying 'well Lost Ark is fine and flawless uwu'.

"Pay to win games can be good guys. guys. And bad games can suck for other reasons. Guys guys." Is a shit argument.

No one is making the argument. Pay to win games CAN be good. Just because there aren't many doesn't mean they can't be. If you want to say Lost Ark is a bad game, say that. But you won't because you know you can't actually truly critique a game without playing it yourself.

And if you like something and actually want it to succeed, you'd critique it's negative points and bad consumer practices. My two cents anyway.

Yeah because if there's something I don't do it's critique things that I love. Or things in general.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

My humor can indeed be hyperbolic, yes. But um yeah, dodge rolling (or jumping) is not unique to Lost Ark. Not even a bit.

Good thing I didn't say it was unique to Lost Ark. I said, quote:

You can dodge roll though which is something a bit more unique to the MMO space.

Here I'll bold the important part.

You can dodge roll though which is something a bit more unique to the MMO space.

The fact that you could only name two games (I'll give you a third, for free: ESO) in a genre that has a lot of games lends some credence to my claim that it is a bit more unique to the MMO space because most MMOS, because of how they are designed, are not games with a lot of moment to moment action necessitating an active dodge roll system. You're not dodge rolling in FF14 or WoW or SWTOR because attacks are telegraphed heavily. Just because three or four games have it doesn't make something no longer unique to the genre overall. I wouldn't say 'oh man you can be a bard in Lost Ark, that's unique to the genre' because it's not.

I still have yet to hear from you, yes YOU.

You're going to be waiting a while. Cuz I'm not playing the game to find out. If anyone cared, they could look through other peoples various complaints about the game for themselves.

And there's more than three or four ARPG/MMO-type games where you can dodge roll. Believe me.

because you know you can't actually truly critique a game without playing it yourself.

And I know you've said this before. But you're just as wrong as you were before. You can (and should) critique a game's censorship, and various other shitty practices, without suffering them for yourself.

If only because hundreds more will go "but something something, this is worse and you have no proof they designed their game this way, so you could pay for things later down the line."

Buy your Pokemon Sword&Shield pokedex expansions pack now.

You're going to be waiting a while. Cuz I'm not playing the game to find out. If anyone cared, they could look through other peoples various complaints about the game for themselves.

And there's more than three or four ARPG/MMO-type games where you can dodge roll. Believe me.

I've played more MMOs than you.

My statement stands.

If I had said 'unique to the ARPG space' then yeah, I'd be silly. But I specifically said MMO. And most ARPGs aren't MMOs.

And I know you've said this before. But you're just as wrong as you were before. You can (and should) critique a game's censorship, and various other shitty practices, without suffering them for yourself.

If only because hundreds more will go "but something something, this is worse and you have no proof they designed their game this way, so you could pay for things later down the line."

Buy your Pokemon Sword&Shield pokedex expansions pack now.

That's not a critique of a game. You can't call a game bad if you haven't played it just as much as you can't call a movie bad if you haven't watched it, a song bad if you haven't listened to it, etc. Well you can. But your opinion would be about as useful as a puddle of piss. What you're doing is acting like you're an arbiter of quality because you're taking a stand like you're looking down at people because you source your opinion via YouTubers.

Are you going to complain that the game has altered presets to have darker skin tones or western facial features? Or is that not the kind of 'censorship' you want to wave a flag about because it's not the same as "look at this NPC and slightly less sexy starting clothes!!!!!"? You're being an ass to someone who likes the game, which is uncool and don't even say "lol just my humor" while also being smug about how much you don't care about a game that you care enough to argue about.

I already bought the Sword and Shield expansion pass, what's your point? That companies release DLC? And that's bad? Oh, I get it, you think it's a big gotcha that GameFreak deliberately released a game without every single Pokemon and then later...released DLC that still didn't put every single Pokemon in it.

If you're going to take a stand against shitty practices then you have no room to stand. You literally are playing Warframe. If you're going to be 'muh diversity crowd bad' then at least be honest and not just singularly 'they made an NPC black badly this is an affront!!!!'.

You know what I do when there's a game I am not interested in? I don't fucking give it any attention. Maybe you should take a page from that book instead of trying to be "I told you so!" or whatever the fuck about a game that many people are genuinely enjoying. You're not some arbiter of gaming taste. None of us are. We're fuckin' geeks and nerds and arty farty roleplay fans on a small ass niche website.

Play a game or don't but don't pretend to be some moral crusader especially for a game you're never going to play.

30 hours in an RPG that’s been out for less than a week here is not bad at all lmao

I've played more MMOs than you.

I'm glad you just know that. :) (Hope that numbers over a hundred.)

But I very much doubt it. Nor do I think I'm gaining much from continuing this.

You literally are playing Warframe.

I'm playing Warframe again. But f*ck me the in-game currency is overly expensive and needed for everything.

When there's a game I am not interested in, I don't give it any attention.

You're not some arbiter of gaming taste. Don't talk mean things about a game that people like.

Oh I see. GameFreak deliberately released a game without certain Pokemon and then later, released popular Pokemon DLC as one of its main selling points. As every honest person in the world predicted they would. I already bought the Sword and Shield expansion pass, what's your point? That companies release DLC? And that's bad?

Yes. You are indeed, making my point for me. (And you don't have to include, "the stuff in red is different than my several paragraphs of writing". I know that.)

Because I understand how you're allowed and supposed to critique things you play and enjoy. So "you not giving attention to things you don't like". And "but many people like this thing with shitty practices" are two moot points to what's true and being argued.

1. Those games you like, can be made better.

2. Those devs can treat their customers better, and only will, if there's backlash to what fans don't like.

But when you ignore what you dislike, and can't admit valid critique of things that you do like. I guess, do you. But it's not helping anyone.

Though yes, those images I put here, were and are the only examples of what others described. That's a good faith response alright.

But that's precisely why this conversation can't go anywhere. Since you're own ultimate "gotcha" is "I have to experience the censorship firsthand in-game to know and hate that it exists on a wider scale." (The joke there is you literally can't. It's censored/removed for fuck sake.)

(Because I played that shit-awful pokemon game. And I still "wasn't allowed" by your standards, to point out what my roommate hated about Pokemon.) So I doubt, you'd really put much more effort into discussing flaws about any game that you happen to enjoy.

But fine. You don't have to. But don't tell me, "no one is making that argument" when its all I'm seeing all over my social media. And you've even agreed to those very points I find erroneous/egregious.

You're being an ass to someone who likes the game.

1. The rich youtuber (and Amazon) will live.

2. I think the anons that I was critiquing will live as well.

3. Me sharing bad first impressions about media, are not, and will never be a "personal character attack" like calling someone an ass is.

4. And if you mean making dumb robot puns. I just thought it was funny. Because bot messages/reviews are usually both short, don't capitalize, nor punctuate sentences. So pardon me.

---

Case in point, did a rant with the goal to rant.

I don't intend to get in a pissing contest over how many multiplayer games 'with unique mechanics such as dodging' that I've played with you.

30 hours in an RPG that’s been out for less than a week here is not bad at all lmao

It honestly takes me forever to play most games for even a few consecutive hours. But I didn't think I'd have to say that I was being facetious.

Well on one hand the DE of Warframe are lazy af but they did do a bang up job with New War. But they're so lazy it'll take like a year til cross compatibility is a thing.

I'm glad you just know that. :) (Hope that numbers over a hundred.)

But I very much doubt it. Nor do I think I'm gaining much from continuing this.

Said the one continuing this.

Yes. You are indeed, making my point for me. (And you don't have to include, "the stuff in red is different than my several paragraphs of writing". I know that.)

Because I understand how you're allowed and supposed to critique things you play and enjoy. So "you not giving attention to things you don't like". And "but many people like this thing with shitty practices" are two moot points to what's true and being argued.

1. Those games you like, can be made better.

2. Those devs can treat their customers better, and only will, if there's backlash to what fans don't like.

You're not making an argument about either of these points. You started this whole thing off jerking off how correct you were about Lost Ark and have consistently backpedaled into turning it into "Aha, so you see, the devs should do better!" with a side order of weirdo slander about the pro-diversity crowd. Pokemon has been releasing DLC since gen 1, except they still charged full price and called it a different color. Does that make it right? Who can say, but them putting out DLC expansions instead of charging 60 dollars twice for each one is hardly indicative of anything other than GameFreak finally reaching three console generations ago.

Game developers of certain games know full fucking well that gamers are a loud bunch who claim to talk with their wallet but then open their wallets day one anyway. Because people are super susceptible to marketing and promotion and FOMO. That's why Fortnite continues to have flavor of the month skins for popular things. That's why even with all the shit that happened with Blizzard, people are still playing Blizzard games.

I'm not fucking saying "people like this thing with bad practices so that makes the practice okay" I'm just not delusional enough to think that whinging on a forum is going to do anything about it. Do I have a problem with Lost Ark's monetization? Personally, no, and I don't believe the game is maliciously designed to get you to use it the way other free to play games are. Does that make it okay that it has it? That depends on if you think any monetization is bad. I personally don't - especially in a game where it doesn't cost the player any money to get the entire game. It's only when it becomes predatory that it becomes an issue but the only thing predatory about Lost Ark are the people who jerk off over their virtual waifu dolls.

But when you ignore what you dislike, and can't admit valid critique of things that you do like. I guess, do you. But it's not helping anyone.

Show me where I can't admit valid critique of something I like. Because for the fifth or so fucking time:

I DO NOT FUCKING LIKE LOST ARK

Ask anyone who has spoken to me at any length outside of here, and there are a few, and they'll tell you how critical I am of things I love. Movies, games, shows, music, anything. I almost lost a good friend because I was super critical of the new Spider-Man movie and then again when I had sweeping criticisms of some anime they like. I love criticism, positive and negative, because I love talking in depth about things. Analyzing them. Diving deep. It's literally what I got my goddamn degree in.

If I don't play, watch, read, listen, whatever to something I don't critique it. I can comment on why I haven't interacted with it but as soon as I offer some sort of critique of the product then it holds little water. "What did you think of that game?" "Oh, it sucked." "Really? What didn't you like about it." "Well I didn't play it but -"

Being critical of a game's monetization is fine. Saying the game is bad because of the monetization is an opinion. You're perfectly able to make a personal value judgment if you disagree with something a developer or publisher does but once you start trying to critique the gameplay or the story or parts of the actual game and you haven't played it? Then you're no better than the neckbeardy shitstains who got mad when Cyberpunk didn't get 10/10s before they played it.

Don't be like them. They have bad social skills and smell bad.

But that's precisely why this conversation can't go anywhere. Since you're own ultimate "gotcha" is "I have to experience the censorship firsthand in-game to know and hate that it exists on a wider scale." (The joke there is you literally can't. It's censored/removed for fuck sake.)

This conversation can't go anywhere because you staunchly refuse to ever concede a point while also constantly misrepresenting it and changing the scope. You also just conveniently gloss over numerous points and refutations. I've clarified my stance. You won't because the goalposts need moving.

(Because I played that shit-awful pokemon game. And I still "wasn't allowed" by your standards, to point out what my roommate hated about Pokemon.) So I doubt, you'd really put much more effort into discussing flaws about any game that you happen to enjoy.

If you played the Pokemon game then you're well within your rights to call it shit-awful. If and when all you had to go by was your room mate's opinion then you're still allowed to have an opinion but it's one that wouldn't be taken seriously because it's not your opinion. If I watch a streamer play a game did I play the game myself? No. No I didn't. If I read a summary of a movie did I watch the movie? No, I didn't. Can I critique something if all I did was listen to second hand information of it? Yes, but it wouldn't be taken seriously nor should it.

You can use second hand opinions of those who have interacted with something to make a judgment call. That's the entire point. But if I read a review of a movie an decide not to see said movie I can't then go and say "Oh that movie sucks" and expect to be taken seriously if I then follow up with "I didn't see it."

This is not a difficult concept to grasp but somehow you can't grasp it.

And if you think I don't put effort into discussing flaws of things I enjoy then you should really ask @Bee or @Hey Im Jordan or various others just how much effort I put into pointing out and discussing flaws.

Because they fuckin hate it when I do it. Most times.

But fine. You don't have to. But don't tell me, "no one is making that argument" when its all I'm seeing all over my social media. And you've even agreed to those very points I find erroneous/egregious.

Funny, all I see on my social media are people making fun of the female walk cycle and how the servers were fucked and how they're enjoying it. Guess anecdotes are motherfuckers aren't they.

1. The rich youtuber (and Amazon) will live.

Motherfucker you did it in this topic. That's what I was referring to. I don't give a fuck about Youtubers.

3. Me sharing bad first impressions about media, are not, and will never be a "personal character attack" like calling someone an ass is.

You called my friend a robot and a shill. One personal attack to another, from an opiniated bitch.

4. And if you mean making dumb robot puns. I just thought it was funny. Because bot messages/reviews are usually both short, don't capitalize, nor punctuate sentences. So pardon me.

And I thought it was funny calling you an ass. I'll apologize when you do bb <3

You called my friend a robot.

And you pretend that I'm the moral crusader.

I ain't reading the rest of that.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>
And you pretend that I'm the moral crusader.

I ain't reading the rest of that.

I don't like people making fun of my friends unless it's me. It's not me being a moral crusader it's me calling a spade a spade

I'm just gonna say let's stop rn

I don't like people making fun of my friends.

Learn the difference between poking fun at statements by their content. (No matter who says them.) Versus speaking out directly against others. (Where you'd more than likely not say anything, if it was someone else.)

Because you can actually type words out, and have them not be personally driven, ya know?

And no. Allowing your friends make to comments about games, doesn't stop the crutch of this flawed logic that happens with you repeatedly. (To the point I can't believe this is "all an act", and you genuinely think me going 'beep boop' is me being on the offensive.)

1. I quote others statements against a game you like.
2. You take it personally (or at least you pretend to) and make "me" the target. Instead of who I quoted, or even the statements themselves.
3. I don't, and merely point out that you're doing this.
4. I get called an ass. (I mean, I hope it's your kink or something. So we're both having a good time here.)

But, it be a lot easier to take anything seriously, if you ever read what I wrote. (Your comments always show you skim through what little I usually type.) And you make walls of text to needlessly lengthen a point you could make in a sentence.

But before I get punished alone for being someone else's pin cushion to stab, I'll take my leave.

Feel free to change the subject peeps.

Edit before I have to deal with this again: The mod comment didn't load on my screen until this was posted. >.>

4. I get called an ass. (I mean, I hope it's your kink or something. So we're both having a good time here.)

My kink does happen to involve asses but I can't fit a square peg into a round hole. I've tried.

Feel free to change the subject peeps.

The new Kirby game is for the vore peeps