Sere said Is it? Is there really a difference between the two, or, is it just a play with words.

Yes there really is a difference.

A suicide is a person who terminates their own existence without justifiable reason based on emotional or mental difficulties that they are having at the time.

A euthanasia is a person who is conscious that their mental state is either degrading to a point where ANIMALS have more conscious thought and control of their body, or the physical pain is so great that it isn't like torture, but is literal torture, to continue living.

How long must someone debate about their rational death that it does not become suicide but is a good death?

It's not about how long. It's about reasons.

What you call criminal neglect, is there a difference to watch someone die in a nursing home then same a prison? Both are covered by tax dollars. If I was a nurse and have the flu, one is in the nursing home and the other in a prison. If their life was so run down that my flu kills both, is it criminal neglect that they died. NO, because were do you stop.

Yes actually it IS criminal neglect that they died. If your nursing home or prison maintained such a low quality of standards that a common illness resulted in the death of someone under your care that is Criminal Neglect and is illegal at least here in Australia.

Reader, you could have had the common flu in your life, gave it to someone else and that person gave it to someone else that ended in death. Or, you could have had the flue, gave it to someone and never seen them again only for them to die some time latter.

Anyone who doesn't seek medical treatment if the flu becomes that life threatening is going to die and I have no compunction to save them. But then again, I don't live in America and its idiotically draconian medical care system that is on par with most third world countries because "Health Care" is "too Communist" to have.

The reason I support suicide at any time, as were going to die some time in our life. I can be a 100 year old woman and be killed by a 8 year old girl with a flu. Oh, you can come up with a rational reason for my death in that way. But, if I say I want to die in say my 20's and in good health, then it is not a rational reason to die. So, the rational reason to be alive is to pay taxes?

A rational reason for your death if an 8yo with the flu gives it to you and you die? That's not "rational" that's a "medical" reason.

If you want to die in your twenties and good health it is just cowardice, being afraid to face the world, being so afraid of the world that death is seen as an escape that must be taken. A suicide is someone who decides that nothing they do can make the world around them better for themselves, even when their life is something millions of people elsewhere would envy.

Magic Magnum said First off, most of us are not american.We are not affected by stuff like Obama Care, we have general health care that applies to all citizens.Also, society is not a hive mind. We are not consciously going "We want ______ dead. Let's as a society cut them off from help and kill them".Let's leave government and society conspiracy theories to kill people off separate please? They do not relate to suicide or depression.I'm sorry that whatever you experience has caused you to look at all of society under such a light. But that is not how society functions, and treating society/the people in it as if they do isn't accurate and only slows down the rate we can deal with issues like depression and suicide because we are burning efforts fighting something that does not exist.

Government can push people into suicide or away from suicide. Right now, your talking how to prevent suicide and it only becomes prevented by acts of a government. The reason that America has a higher rated of suicide, is because of the easy access of firearms. My argument is not about the front end of gaining a firearm to end into suicide. My argument is what what we do in America at the back end.

Let us do a role play here. You have a firearm, and you live in an apartment or you wish to die in an area that people have the right to be their. Now let us say you plan to take your life in an apartment. Now let us say you call someone to ask the police to come over to give you help. Now some will say great, the system worked. The person called someone to send the police to help this person from taking their life. The person will get help, and were all happy.

In America, the police see you with a firearm in an apartment. They cannot arrest you because you were thinking of suicide. They will arrest you, because you were thinking of discharging the firearm that could have gone into the wall and hurting someone on the other side of the wall. The person could go to prison, but, more or less they will accept a deal that you become a convicted felon. As a felon, he will lose his right to a firearm. In some states, lose the right to vote. And as a felon, lifetime wages are cut by thousands of dollars. In America, if you ask for help right at the time you are thinking of killing yourself. You find out that help is punishment.

Now, if that person has a mental illness, and suicide was a bye product. It is going to be high that the next time, they will not call for help as they understand help as punishment. Most people that do take their life, they have already in the past asked for help in their attempted suicide. So, do not tell me government is not a player in suicide.

Kadaeux said
Yes there really is a difference.A suicide is a person who terminates their own existence without justifiable reason based on emotional or mental difficulties that they are having at the time.A euthanasia is a person who is conscious that their mental state is either degrading to a point where ANIMALS have more conscious thought and control of their body, or the is so great that it isn't like torture, but is literal torture, to continue living. It's not about how long. It's about reasons.

It is a play with words. If I take a firearm and shot myself in my car in some parking lot (car park) people will say that is suicide and was not rational. When I more to Washington state, one of a few states you can die early: the voters do not like the words assisted suicide. Nope, it polls better if you use a different word to do the same identical policy. It is politics when you just change the words around to change the public poles.

Yes actually it IS criminal neglect that they died. If your nursing home or prison maintained such a of standards that a common illness resulted in the death of someone under your care that is Criminal Neglect and is illegal at least here in Australia.Anyone who doesn't seek medical treatment if the flu becomes that life threatening is going to die and I have no compunction to save them. But then again, I don't live in America and its idiotically draconian system that is on par with most because "Health Care" is "too Communist" to have.A rational reason for your death if an 8yo with the flu gives it to you and you die?

There has been a number of political scientist that have debated for decades about why type of government is more likely to happen in America if and when the government collapse. No, it is not going to be communism, it is going to be fascism. America has been for a long time, been a center right country and were moving more to the right all the time. The more stress America has, it moves more to the right. Hold on when Climate Change is accepted by the right. They will be looking at Canada and say, you have breading room and it is much cooler above 48 degrees north. Think I am joking, just a few years ago a military report came out talking about America with an invasion plan to take Canada in the event that the United Kingdom was invaded by Germany.

In America still supports "Social Darwinism" my friend. The good point is health care in the past. If you are poor, if you are old, if have no needed importance, we find out we do not care if you life or die. Right now in the state of Georgia, the governor wants to get ride of a federal law that says a hospital must provide you will medical care until your well enough to be discharged. Reason being, there have been a number of hospitals that have closed because they are taking care of the poor in their neighborhood. True, they could get healthcare, but, it is a southern state that does not want universal healthcare.

Let us put it this way. If the state of Georgia gets what it wants. And your a person that does not have insurance, they can just tell you after you tell them your going to take your life go away. Then you cross the street and take a firearm and shoot yourself. It would be no crime done by the hospital. But, if you read my last comment above, and you call the police after the hospital talked to you. You go to prison.

Well, it's their meatsuit.

I don't really see it as tragic or selfish, but more of a decision a person made. I guess I'm apathetic if anything.

Sere said snip

Mate I'm starting to wonder if you're even reading the posts you're replying to, because you're latching on to tangents that only you have ever mentioned in the thread and running with them as if they were the entire reason for other peoples posts, when really they don't actually relate except to maybe 2 words taken out of context.

Sere said
It is a play with words. If I take a firearm and shot myself in my car in some parking lot (car park) people will say that is suicide and was not rational. When I more to Washington state, one of a few states you can die early: the voters do not like the words assisted suicide. Nope, it polls better if you use a different word to do the same identical policy. It is politics when you just change the words around to change the public poles.

Are you even reading?

It isn't a play with words in any possible way.

If you shoot yourself in a car in some car park, yes people will say its a suicide and not rational.
If you do it in Washington state THEY WILL STILL say it's a suicide and not rational.

And who gives a shit about politics or voters?

Euthenasia is a situation when, due to medical reasons, you will either cease to be yourself (Dementia, Alzheimers etc) or you will, thanks to little things like cancer, live in such incredible agony and suffering, whereby your continued existence is a source of suffering to both you and everyone around you. Instead of dying shitting your daks for some poor RN to clean from your ass with a wet towel you choose to depart the mortal coil while you can still do so with dignity.

Suicide is a situation whereby, due to depression, cowardice and a sharp profound fear of facing the world a person choose to, instead of seeking help, instead of talking about their issues, takes it on themselves to leave the world suddenly without so much as the courtesy of preparing their family, friends, colleagues and other applicable parties for it leaving them with not only the emotional burden of said suicide, but also the financial burden.

There has been a number of political scientist that have debated for decades about why type of government is more likely to happen in America if and when the government collapse. No, it is not going to be communism, it is going to be fascism. America has been for a long time, been a center right country and were moving more to the right all the time. The more stress America has, it moves more to the right. Hold on when Climate Change is accepted by the right. They will be looking at Canada and say, you have breading room and it is much cooler above 48 degrees north. Think I am joking, just a few years ago a military report came out talking about America with an invasion plan to take Canada in the event that the United Kingdom was invaded by Germany.In America still supports "Social Darwinism" my friend. The good point is health care in the past. If you are poor, if you are old, if have no needed importance, we find out we do not care if you life or die. Right now in the state of Georgia, the governor wants to get ride of a federal law that says a hospital must provide you will medical care until your well enough to be discharged. Reason being, there have been a number of hospitals that have closed because they are taking care of the poor in their neighborhood. True, they could get healthcare, but, it is a southern state that does not want universal healthcare. Let us put it this way. If the state of Georgia gets what it wants. And your a person that does not have insurance, they can just tell you after you tell them your going to take your life go away. Then you cross the street and take a firearm and shoot yourself. It would be no crime done by the hospital. But, if you read my last comment above, and you call the police after the hospital talked to you. You go to prison.

What the fuck are you on about. About the only point that connects, in any way, to what I said is. "True, they could get healthcare, but, it is a southern state that does not want universal healthcare." And that is in response to a tangential remark I made that has no bearing on the actual discussion. The rest of it is just utter irrelevant nonsense.

I definitely agree with all of you that it's a form of child abuse. However, I'll be out of the house in about July and our only relative (my gandmother) is going to take my sister for a while. My sister has told her counselor about incidents in the past and CPS was called (but no substantial proof) and I believe that just made my mother angry with my sister. I'm really worried about moving out but this seems like a really safe bet right now.

Sere said
I am bipolar, and I have received that story countless times. Mother and father do not like it when you talk about suicide because they feel its their bad DNA that made you think that way. My friend, eugenics is alive and well. The more you think about it, we just turn into life stock. Were just animals, nothing more and nothing less. Were just kept alive because someone feels they can make money off from us.

Isn't that the truth? :P I was just surprised when my mother denied to my sister. My sister was the favorite (and does not remind my mother of the man she hates because different fathers) and she's been in two psychiatric wards (they transferred her to a different one in the middle of treatment so she could see some sort of specialist) and taking medication is part of her freaking outpatient treatment.

But yeah. :P

Magic Magnum said
Also, society is not a hive mind. We are not consciously going "We want ______ dead. Let's as a society cut them off from help and kill them".Let's leave government and society conspiracy theories to kill people off separate please? They do not relate to suicide or depression.I'm sorry that whatever you experience has caused you to look at all of society under such a light. But that is not how society functions, and treating society/the people in it as if they do isn't accurate and only slows down the rate we can deal with issues like depression and suicide because we are burning efforts fighting something that does not exist.

Seconded.

Gat said
Mate I'm starting to wonder if you're even reading the posts you're replying to, because you're latching on to tangents that only you have ever mentioned in the thread and running with them as if they were the entire reason for other peoples posts, when really they don't actually relate except to maybe 2 words taken out of context.

[2]

as someone who's actually lived through a suicide attempt, i believe it depends on the individual and their life circumstances. mine were too much for me to handle so i wanted to find a way out. yeah, everyone i went to thought i was a lil bitch and told me to get over it. i tried to but i couldn't deal. i guess that's why i tried to kill myself. but it's an extremely sore subject for me to talk/write about, so i never really do; it's my pride.

sure, there's going to be those shits that post about their supposed suicide on myspace/facebook/tumblr etc.and try to get 1,000,00000,0,0 amount of likes so people will stop them. it's fucked up. i have absolutely no sympathy for them. they're not depressed, they want attention.

but that being said, i don't know anyone's situation. someone might be suffering like i was and didn't tell anyone about it. that's why i never judge people who don't brag about it.

and those rich white kids? i knew one. star athlete, amazing artist, and a genuinely good friend.

he ended up jumping off an overpass last year. i never knew why. no one ever found out why. he didn't even tell anyone he was going to commit suicide -- we just found out the day after. all the classrooms were empty the day of his funeral though.

so, yeah. it takes a lot of fucking courage to slit your own throat, aim a gun or your own temple, or mix those medications together on purpose. for those bringing up god: suicide is a capital sin. it's an automatic ticket to hell. shit, that takes courage to send yourself to hell.

not all people do it for attention. but, there are going to be those ignorant people who think that and i lost some friends because of my 'ordeal' or whatever. but now i know i have somewhat of a support system that i can go to.

i'm not trying to have a therapy session or anything, just trying to explain my feelings and i don't think i'm doing a very good job. sorry, haha.

No matter how you look at it courage doesnt really apply (at least in my view). It takes willpower to do the deed, but you said yourself you wanted to escape your issues rather than face them. It takes real courage to face ones fears instead of running and even more to keep trying if you fail at first.

Gat said
It takes real courage to face ones fears instead of running and even more to keep trying if you fail at first.

when everyone that you know doesn't want to help you (or seems like it), it doesn't exactly make you strive to 'face your fears'.

So dont rely on those around you. At the end of the day only you can make real changes in your life. If you have the willpower to take your own life then you've got the capability to make things better for yourself you just have to focus on the goal and instead of dwelling on how thing are at the moment.

Bare in mind I am a highly independent person. And im pretty sure ive never been depressed. The whole concept is alien to me on a personal level because I strive to stay positive or at least practical with everything I do. Its worked for 20 odd years so far, even during the low parts of my life.

Gat said
So dont rely on those around you. At the end of the day only you can make real changes in your life. If you have the willpower to take your own life then you've got the capability to make things better for yourself you just have to focus on the goal and instead of dwelling on how thing are at the moment.

right, but at the same time people deal with extreme stress differently. it's hard to have goals when life isn't appealing or worth something to you anymore.

Gat said
And im pretty sure ive never been depressed. The whole concept is alien to me on a personal level because I strive to stay positive or at least practical with everything I do. Its worked for 20 odd years so far, even during the low parts of my life.

welp, alrighty then.

Thats not to say ive not been in depressing times, I was 15 when my mother died, my father was unemployed and my little sister started going right off the rails. The only stable part of my life at that point was I had a roof over my head and I had the routine of school. For most people thats prime depression material as far as I know. I just didnt let my self be taken by the bad things. I used the willpower I have to push for positive changes and lowand behold it worked even if it did take a few years.

Question mainly for Wreck but does extend to anyone who feels they can answer it.

What exactly is the rational in being brave enough to kill yourself when there's a fear of hell?
When I was younger, the fear of hell was an instant deterrent to me.
I was told of how bad Hell was, and reasoned no matter how bad life is now Hell would be worse I do myself no favor's going there.

I just don't get the rational of why would someone kill themselves if they thought they'd only go somewhere worse?
The only possibilities I can think of are:

1) They believe that Hell is better their current life
2) They believe they are a burden on others, and willing to suffer hell if it means they are no longer a burden

But other than that kind of reasoning, I'm completely stumped on why anyone would make the conscious choice to kill themselves if they truly believed they'd only end up somewhere worse for it.

Gat said
Thats not to say ive not been in depressing times, I was 15 when my mother died, my father was unemployed and my little sister started going right off the rails. The only stable part of my life at that point was I had a roof over my head and I had the routine of school. For most people thats prime depression material as far as I know. I just didnt let my self be taken by the bad things. I used the willpower I have to push for positive changes and lowand behold it worked even if it did take a few years.

It should be noted that Depression is shown to be a hormone/chemical unbalance in the brain.

You can put two people in the exact same situation, but if one's brain is unbalanced in a way that functions more like Depression they'll feel far worse and/or have far less ability to push themselves forward than the person whose brain is not unbalanced in such a way.

Magic Magnum said
.What exactly is the rational in being brave enough to kill yourself when there's a fear of hell?When I was younger, the fear of hell was an instant deterrent to me.

i have no idea. i couldn't really answer that question.

it's one of those things that depends on the person. i don't really care about it. i don't believe in an afterlife so that wasn't something i thought about.

but that's the thing about killing yourself. it's really not rational at all.

Magic Magnum said
I just don't get the rational of why would someone kill themselves if they thought they'd only go somewhere worse?The only possibilities I can think of are:
1) They believe that Hell is better their current life
2) They believe they are a burden on others, and willing to suffer hell if it means they are no longer a burden

additional possibilities:
- They don't believe in hell/afterlife
- Some people thought that killing themselves will set them free
- They weren't thinking about hell when they decided to suicide, and maybe only focused on the pain they're feeling at the moment (either physical/mental pain, or maybe both)
- They thought that they're doing a good thing with their suicide (ex.: suicide bomber)

I'm sure that there are other reasons, but those are what I can think at the moment.

ishtar said
additional possibilities:- They don't believe in hell/afterlife- Some people thought that killing themselves will set them free- They weren't thinking about hell when they decided to suicide, and maybe only focused on the pain they're feeling at the moment (either physical/mental pain, or maybe both)- They thought that they're doing a good thing with their suicide (ex.: suicide bomber)I'm sure that there are other reasons, but those are what I can think at the moment.

I wasn't asking for reasons for suicide in general. I agree those are all reasons though.
In this case though I was specifically asking about in the case where they believe in Hell, why would they still choose to kill themselves?

Magic Magnum said
I wasn't asking for reasons for suicide in general. I agree those are all reasons though.In this case though I was specifically asking about in the case where they believe in Hell, why would they still choose to kill themselves?

the same reason why anyone would.

when you're desperate enough, shit like that doesn't matter anymore. i guess you need a person that believes in hell to answer that question.

Magic Magnum said
I wasn't asking for reasons for suicide in general. I agree those are all reasons though.In this case though I was specifically asking about in the case where they believe in Hell, why would they still choose to kill themselves?

Depthless levels of masochism! JK