Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

[Mammon]

I don't believe that suicide is either tragic or selfish, not that I condone suicide. It's the ultimate expression of will over one's own body and own life. There are some events in life that people can't live with; no amount of time or therapy can solve these problems. No one can, through any amount of effort, change the past. There's no way for someone to regrow an amputated limb, or raise the dead, or erase past trauma. If someone had truly lost the desire to live, if their life is absolutely bereft of happiness or contentment, it's far more utilitarian for them to end their suffering.

Sometimes when an animal is severely injured, senile, or otherwise abnormal, people kill them to put them out of their misery. It's a perfectly acceptable act and minimizes the suffering of the animal. Why would you try to deny or belittle that same right for a human being, who--as far as we know--has a much higher capacity for emotional and mental pain?

I'm not trying to say that suicide is ever the best solution; what I am saying, however, is that sometimes--after all other resources have been exhausted, after someone has tried therapy, anti-depressants, time, and friendship--it is the only way to ease their pain.

I don't find suicide selfish. If anything, those that wish the victim to continue living a life full of nothing but unyielding hurt and grinding depression are selfish. Most commonly, people would much rather force their own religious or personal beliefs down the other person's throat than attempt to understand them. Yes, you should try to console the victim and help them get every resource available to fix their problem, but... If you loved someone who committed suicide because they had no hope of recovery from their mental illness, then you should find comfort in the fact that they are no longer in such pain, instead of pretending that it was an act of pure selfishness or greed.
I also don’t find the act of suicide to be tragic. What I find more piteous is the life they must have endured to commit suicide. I can only imagine what someone must have gone through because of either mental illness or trauma to choose death and peace over life and suffering.

Instead of pointless sympathies, I think that those considering suicide should be given access to mental health care and meaningful friendship. I personally don’t believe in any religion--so whether or not the victim goes to Hell is a non-issue to me—but I somehow doubt an all-loving and understanding god would punish someone for taking their own life because of trauma or mental illness.

Just to summarize: there are certain feelings and events in someone’s life that are completely beyond their control. There are some things that cannot be repaired, cannot be stopped, and cannot be prevented which lead to a huge amount of torment and human suffering. It is not the weakness or selfishness of the victim which leads them to kill themselves. I think it should be socially acceptable to kill oneself should all other resources be exhausted.

[Kadaeux]

Mammon said Sometimes when an animal is severely injured, senile, or otherwise abnormal, people kill them to put them out of their misery. It's a perfectly acceptable act and minimizes the suffering of the animal. Why would you try to deny or belittle that same right for a human being, who--as far as we know--has a much higher capacity for emotional and mental pain?

Because, an animal, unlike a person, cannot seek help. If they're injured take them to a vet unless they're obviously going to die then put them out of their misery. If they're senile it's called "Euthenasia" and shouldn't be denied, and "otherwise abnormal" should we start executing the blind, the deaf, people with down syndrome? After all, by your comparator we'd just be putting them out of their misery, it's a perfectly acceptable act after all.

A human being, unlike an animal with that critical little "language barrier" issue, can seek help.

Mammon said It's the ultimate expression of will over one's own body and own life.

No, it's the ultimate expression of a fear of living more than a fear of death. People go on about how it's an "ultimate expression of will" it really isn't. The human sense of self-preservation is not that strong, curiosity, boredom and all other manner of things overcome it almost every time. "What is that strange thing." "What's it like to jump out of an aircraft." "I'm going to join the military."

The only difference is that a suicide is setting out to kill themselves.

Mammon said If you loved someone who committed suicide because they had no hope of recovery from their mental illness, then you should find comfort in the fact that they are no longer in such pain, instead of pretending that it was an act of pure selfishness or greed.

If someone I loved committed suicide i'd hold their memory in contempt for the short time it'd take me to discard their memory. Most people who commit suicide don't even make genuine attempts to get help. And unlike some i'm not speaking from a void here. I've had near crippling depression and anxiety issues for some years but I refuse to let that get me. In the end life is a battle and i'm not going down without a fight.

People who commit suicide ARE acting out of pure selfishness and greed. They can't see a way to make their lives better. They don't WANT a way to make their lives better, instead they want a way out and will take it and leave everyone around them to pick up the pieces.

Mammon said What I find more piteous is the life they must have endured to commit suicide. I can only imagine what someone must have gone through because of either mental illness or trauma to choose death and peace over life and suffering.

In most cases, absolutely nothing to justify or explain it. Sure there are some cases, such as rape or child molestation victims who I percieve as having a damned good reason to do so. Or a parent that has lost their children in some horrific accident. But the vast majority of suicides have no logical, rational or in any possible way justifiable reason other than "life's too hard, ima checkin out early."

Mammon said I somehow doubt an all-loving and understanding god would punish someone for taking their own life because of trauma or mental illness.

The problem with people who believe in an "all loving" and "all forgiving" god is that their own source material doesn't support it. He's the type that floods the world for over a month in a tiff because people he gave free will didn't behave properly. He's the type that incinerates a guy's wife because she looked back curious to see what smiting Sodom and Gommorah looked like, of which yeah, he's the type douchy enough to obliterate a couple cities he didn't like.

Or the time he allegedly unleashed seven plagues on egypt because he didn't like they way they ran the show.

Or the time he let his "son" get nailed to some crude Carpentry so he had an excuse not to go all apocalypse on humanity's arses again.

Let's be honest, most people who believe in an all loving and forgiving god haven't read all the source material :p

Mammon said It is not the weakness or selfishness of the victim which leads them to kill themselves.

Yes. It is.

[Mammon]

Kadaeux said
Because, an animal, unlike a person, cannot seek help. If they're injured take them to a vet unless they're obviously going to die then put them out of their misery. If they're senile it's called "Euthenasia" and shouldn't be denied, and "otherwise abnormal" should we start executing the blind, the deaf, people with down syndrome? After all, by your comparator we'd just be putting them out of their misery, it's a perfectly acceptable act after all.A human being, unlike an animal with that critical little "language barrier" issue, can seek help.

You seem to be ignoring half of what I address in my post. When I say it is ethically acceptable to commit suicide, I explicitly mention that this is only after every other option has been exhausted. This "language barrier" is a particularly interesting point, because usually people who commit suicide want to die; executing the deaf, blind, and mentally handicapped is not the same as what I am discussing, because many do not wish to die and have a high quality of life. In fact, I would venture to say I have not met someone with Down's Syndrome who was unhappy. What you're suggesting is actually a logical fallacy called "slippery slope."

Kadaeux said No, it's the ultimate expression of a fear of living more than a fear of death. People go on about how it's an "ultimate expression of will" it really isn't. The human sense of self-preservation is not that strong, curiosity, boredom and all other manner of things overcome it almost every time. "What is that strange thing." "What's it like to jump out of an aircraft." "I'm going to join the military." The only difference is that a suicide is setting out to kill themselves.

I think that people who commit suicide are not simply curious about what it is like to die. When I say it is the ultimate exertion of will, I do mean it; those who are legitimately suicidal because of trauma or mental illness experience a huge loss of control. Sometimes, even after therapy, medication and patience, the only way to regain control of their lives is through suicide.

Kadaeux said If someone I loved committed suicide i'd hold their memory in contempt for the short time it'd take me to discard their memory. Most people who commit suicide don't even make genuine attempts to get help. And unlike some i'm not speaking from a void here. I've had near crippling depression and anxiety issues for some years but I refuse to let that get me. In the end life is a battle and i'm not going down without a fight.People who commit suicide ARE acting out of pure selfishness and greed. They can't see a way to make their lives better. They don't WANT a way to make their lives better, instead they want a way out and will take it and leave everyone around them to pick up the pieces.

Again, this goes back to what I said about it being acceptable only after every other attempt at righting themselves has been made. Even if we are talking about these "selfish individuals", I think that what Jorick had to say is still very applicable. In case you haven't read it, here it is:

Jorick said
Is suicide selfish? Well, it's selfish insofar as it is a decision a person makes without regard to how it will affect others, but what of it? Other people are not entitled to one's life in the first place. Claiming that others are selfish for denying you something you want but have no right or entitlement to is a kind of selfishness in and of itself. It's a crude metaphor, but decrying those who commit suicide as selfish because it makes other people feel bad is like saying someone putting password protection on their wi-fi is selfish because other people want to use it and being unable to is annoying for them. Sure, by the definition of the word both of those acts are selfish, but being selfish is not inherently bad. Just because something is selfish does not make it unacceptable or wrong. It is utterly reasonable to place higher value on yourself than on others. Selfishness is in essence an expression of thought that other people's desires are not as important as your own, and this too is reasonable.I find it entirely selfish that people whine about their own sadness when someone they were close to committed suicide. What of the person who went through with suicide? Whatever they were going through (likely depression, and likely other things too) was so bad that they felt their only way out was to end their life to escape it. Now that's some hardcore fucking sadness for you. Quit your bitching and try to empathize with that situation before declaring that now dead person to be horrible for their selfish act. People are so selfishly concerned with their own feelings that they lose sight of this sort of thing. Who are you to condemn another person's selfishness that caused you some pain when you're selfishly dismissing their greater pain in the same breath? It's fucking ridiculous, and it's one of the many things that show how stupidly and incorrectly people view and treat mental health issues.Getting all upset with a depressed person for committing suicide is like being pissed off at someone for dying because they got mugged and stabbed multiple times and died in the hospital a couple weeks later. A person who becomes depressed or has other mental health issues causing suicidal thoughts is no more at fault than someone who gets mugged, and the hard truth is that sometimes all the medical help in the world isn't enough to save someone from a stab wound. It's even worse for mental health issues, because someone who was stabbed will always rush to get medical attention, but due to our fucked up societal views on mental illness tons of people who are depressed or have other issues don't seek help. They're walking around with what is essentially a mental stab wound and not seeking help due to a very reasonable fear of what people will think of them and say about them and how people will treat them for it, and those same people then have the gall to be upset with them when it ends in death. It's absurd. If I had to measure the balance of selfishness in the equation, I'd say the lesser weight definitely lies on the side of those who commit suicide. Those who decry and blame them are so much more selfish that it's not even a contest as far as I can see, and it's extremely hypocritical to boot.

Kadaeux said In most cases, absolutely nothing to justify or explain it. Sure there are some cases, such as rape or child molestation victims who I percieve as having a damned good reason to do so. Or a parent that has lost their children in some horrific accident. But the vast majority of suicides have no logical, rational or in any possible way justifiable reason other than "life's too hard, ima checkin out early."

I agree with you that suicide is often not logical; many people who commit suicide are not in a rational state of mind. However, I don't think that belittling someone's problems is a good thing to do in any way, and saying that some people have a justifiable reason over other people to commit suicide is extremely short-sighted. I would venture to say that a vast majority of people who consider, attempt or commit suicide are suffering from a mental illness, such as depression, bipolar disorder, or something similar. I think your summary is a gross oversimplification of the issue at hand and shows an extreme lack of empathy and understanding..

Kadaeux said :pYes. It is.

I completely disagree. The circumstances which lead to someone committing suicide are usually not the victim's fault; as you mentioned previously, you can't possibly justify saying the victim of child molestation or rape is in any way at fault for that happening to them. It's also beyond their control that they suffer from a mental illness. Sometimes, there's simply no way of fixing their circumstance, and death is their only freedom from pain.

[Wreck]

Mammon said
-what you wrote-

i think that's what i was trying to say.

when river died, i didn't feel angry or resentful about him killing himself. i didn't know why he did it but if that was his choice then i'm glad he's at peace. the last thing i wanted was for him to keep living with so much pain/or whatever.

some people think they can't be helped. i didn't think anyone could help me and i didn't see the point. i was tired of reaching out to people that weren't interested in helping me, and i felt like i was bringing everyone down when i brought it up.

[Mammon]

Wreck said
i think that's what i was trying to say. when river died, i didn't feel angry or resentful about him killing himself. i didn't know he did it but if that was his choice then i'm glad he's at peace. the last thing i wanted was for him to keep living with so much pain/or whatever. some people think they can't be helped. i didn't think anyone could help me and i didn't see the point. i was tired of reaching out to people that weren't interested in helping me, and i felt like i was bringing everyone down when i brought it up.

I understand, and I'm sorry you ever had to feel like that. If you ever need someone to talk to, feel free to PM me.

[Wreck]

Mammon said
I understand, and I'm sorry you ever had to feel like that. If you ever need someone to talk to, feel free to PM me.

thanks. i might take you up on that offer.

[Shurikai]

Kadaeux said
Because, an animal, unlike a person, cannot seek help. If they're injured take them to a vet unless they're obviously going to die then put them out of their misery.

A human being, unlike an animal with that critical little "language barrier" issue, can seek help.

I find these sort of statements annoying.

Humans are animals. We are simply more intelligent.
Animals do seek help from their species and humans alike. An injured animal is smart enough, usually, to go to an area where there might be help, its the human that chooses to ignore them.
If an animal is not going to survive an injury, such as bloat or fatal injury like a gun shot, yes, euthanize them. Those are extremely painful and no creature deserves that. It might have been the same way in earlier times, but not now. The only time one human consciously has control of another humans life is 1. during surgery and 2. when someone is in a "vegetable" like state they may never come out of.
Language barrier? No animal communicates only with their voice.
There is no word for word translation from dog to human, but we get the jist of what they mean. They understand our words, why can't we understand them?

They can seek help if they choose. We have to listen.

Sorry to go off topic.

Now to the topic. I find myself agreeing with Mammon.

[Brand]

Skittlez said
I have struggled with suicidal thoughts frequently since (I think I wrote my first suicide note at) 9/10. I tried to tell my mother at 12 and she only seemed very annoyed. We never had the discussion again. I still suffer from it. My sister (about to be 14) threatened to kill herself and only then did my parents get her help. My mother often refuses to give her the medicines she's been prescribed and will yell at her for being ridiculous if she cries or feels depressed. My mother doesn't want sick children. She wants perfect children. Not that I've ever been good enough for her, my sister was always the favorite. But let me tell you I have never seen a child fall so far from grace so quickly. I will never tell my mother about how I feel, or what my ex did or things I've done because she would only be annoyed and disappointed.THAT is selfish. I'm not saying suicide isn't selfish (I'll admit that it is), but it may not be the most selfish choice being made.

I went through a similar experience. My family went through a lot of shit when I was younger, and I came out of all of it very depressed and suicidal. Like I said earlier, I went to both my mom and the church and they both just told me how selfish I was being. I think my mom just didn't know how to handle it, the church pulled the "You would disappoint god" card to some effect, and as a result I still have some deep running estrangement with my mother and hatred for how the church handled it all. Eventually my mom got me into counseling which turned out to be exactly what I needed.

I think suicide is a horrible thing, but I can't look at it as selfish. Because when I personally tried to talk to someone about it, they just mishandled it. I know how horrible it felt, and can sympathize to others going through the similar thing, and if they don't get the help they need I understand how it could lead to a suicide. As far as the whole selfish debate, if someone has a negative driving force strong enough to lead them to suicide I think it's ignorant for these people to stand back and call them selfish. No one knows every faucet of someone else s life, so where in all of this do they get the entitlement to pass judgement.

[Wreck]

Brand said
As far as the whole selfish debate, if someone has a negative driving force strong enough to lead them to suicide I think it's ignorant for these people to stand back and call them selfish.

agreed.

[Kadaeux]

Mammon said You seem to be ignoring half of what I address in my post. When I say it is ethically acceptable to commit suicide, I explicitly mention that this is only after every other option has been exhausted. This "language barrier" is a particularly interesting point, because usually people who commit suicide want to die; executing the deaf, blind, and mentally handicapped is not the same as what I am discussing, because many do not wish to die and have a high quality of life. In fact, I would venture to say I have not met someone with Down's Syndrome who was unhappy. What you're suggesting is actually a logical fallacy called "slippery slope."

No. There is no logical fallacy involved. As you can see from your own statement.

Mammon said Sometimes when an animal is severely injured, senile, or otherwise abnormal, people kill them to put them out of their misery. It's a perfectly acceptable act and minimizes the suffering of the animal.

The deaf, blind and mentally handicapped are, like it or not, abnormal. To declare it is ok to kill an animal for an abnormality and not a person, simply because the person can say "but I don't want to die" is the hypocritical approach. Additionally you explicitly mention "after every other option has been exhausted"

I would venture to say that less than a single percent of a single percent of people who commit suicide have exhausted even SOME of the options let alone all of them.

Mammon said I think that people who commit suicide are not simply curious about what it is like to die. When I say it is the ultimate exertion of will, I do mean it; those who are legitimately suicidal because of trauma or mental illness experience a huge loss of control. Sometimes, even after therapy, medication and patience, the only way to regain control of their lives is through suicide.

You do mean it. And you're absolutely wrong. There is no "ultimate exertion of will" to die. It is VERY EASY, people yak on about how they're overcoming the instinct to survive at all costs, an instinct that every single one of us ignores daily. You don't "regain control of your life through suicide" you demonstrate your utter fear of living, a fear of living more profound than fear of death. There is no such thing as "legitimately suicidal" while one can have reasons I consider "acceptable" the act of suicide is still an unacceptable one.

Mammon said Again, this goes back to what I said about it being acceptable only after every other attempt at righting themselves has been made. Even if we are talking about these "selfish individuals", I think that what Jorick had to say is still very applicable. In case you haven't read it, here it is:

And as I said before, I doubt even a percent of a percent of suicides even ATTEMPT to make all efforts to right themselves. They declare life too hard, chicken out and dodge the next train off the mortal coil. (Sometimes literally, and seriously, suicide by train is perhaps the dickiest way to go and if fucked up leaves you off a lot worse.)

Mammon said I agree with you that suicide is often not logical; many people who commit suicide are not in a rational state of mind. However, I don't think that belittling someone's problems is a good thing to do in any way, and saying that some people have a justifiable reason over other people to commit suicide is extremely short-sighted. I would venture to say that a vast majority of people who consider, attempt or commit suicide are suffering from a mental illness, such as depression, bipolar disorder, or something similar. I think your summary is a gross oversimplification of the issue at hand and shows an extreme lack of empathy and understanding..

And that is just demonstrating your own lack of understanding, i'm turning thirty this year, i've lived with depression since I was about fourteen, i've had suicidal thoughts and shovelled them back in the back as the ultimate act of cowardice. As being "short sighted"

Person A: Had three kids. They die in a car accident. Kills self.
Person B: "OH NOES THEYZE PIKKING ON ME!" Kills self.

There is no parallel. It's not belittling someone, it is recognising that person B has no valid reason IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY for suicide. Even with mental illness added on top, something I am INTIMATELY familiar with, the fact person b considered that reason enough to terminate their life isn't an ultimate act of will. It's the ultimate act of weakness.

Mammon said I completely disagree. The circumstances which lead to someone committing suicide are usually not the victim's fault; as you mentioned previously, you can't possibly justify saying the victim of child molestation or rape is in any way at fault for that happening to them. It's also beyond their control that they suffer from a mental illness. Sometimes, there's simply no way of fixing their circumstance, and death is their only freedom from pain.

Sometimes. Yes. But in the VAST majority of cases no. In the vast majority of cases no attempt is made to fix their circumstances.

[Mammon]

Kadaeux said
No. There is no logical fallacy involved. As you can see from your own statement.The deaf, blind and mentally handicapped are, like it or not, abnormal. To declare it is ok to kill an animal for an abnormality and not a person, simply because the person can say "but I don't want to die" is the hypocritical approach. Additionally you explicitly mention "after every other option has been exhausted"I would venture to say that less than a single percent of a single percent of people who commit suicide have exhausted even SOME of the options let alone all of them.

The reason it is a logical fallacy is because you are not arguing against what I am actually trying to say--which is that it is merciful to allow those with enough emotional trauma to consider suicide commit it. I do not condone the execution of perfectly viable and functional people--which the deaf and blind are. What I mean is that animal life is usually considered less important than human life. If people justify the killing of animals to put them out of their misery, it should be easy to see why a human life--which has an extremely high capacity for emotional and mental pain--deserves to be given the same option of peace through death.

Kadaeux said You do mean it. And you're absolutely wrong. There is no "ultimate exertion of will" to die. It is VERY EASY, people yak on about how they're overcoming the instinct to survive at all costs, an instinct that every single one of us ignores daily. You don't "regain control of your life through suicide" you demonstrate your utter fear of living, a fear of living more profound than fear of death. There is no such thing as "legitimately suicidal" while one can have reasons I consider "acceptable" the act of suicide is still an unacceptable one.

You are absolutely right about fear. Most suicide is an act of fear and desperation, this is true (with perhaps maybe metaphysical suicide being the one exception, but that's not really what I'm discussing). To understand how desperate it is, let's briefly think about what it's like to be on a very high building or bridge. When you look over the edge, you experience fear... Fear that you might fall and die. In many people, this fear is enough to trigger a physical response--sweaty hands, increased respiration, dilated pupil, etc. If you've had a near-death experience, recall that the fear you had then was even worse, and you may have had nightmares about it following the incident. Why? You have an innate fear of death. Most suicidal people still experience this fear of death. You said that their fear of living outweighs their fear of death. That's hugely significant! Their daily life is so full of depression, anger, guilt, and fear that they would rather kill themselves than live one more day. Can you pause an appreciate that for a moment?

...

All right, so saying that these people are trying to escape the fear and sadness they experience daily is no slight to them. If they have no other options and it is their will to die, who am I to deny them that choice--the ultimate extension of their will over their own body and life.

Kadaeux said And as I said before, I doubt even a percent of a percent of suicides even ATTEMPT to make all efforts to right themselves. They declare life too hard, chicken out and dodge the next train off the mortal coil. (Sometimes literally, and seriously, suicide by train is perhaps the dickiest way to go and if fucked up leaves you off a lot worse.)

This brings up an important issue: the means that someone commits suicide. Jumping in front of a train will usually kill someone, but it can leave the engineer or the passengers quite distraught. If suicide were socially understood and accepted as a last resort, I think that people would have a safe and private place to kill themselves without risking harm to other people either physically or mentally. Slavoj Zizek, a modern superstar Lacanian-Marxist philosopher, suggested that perhaps a panel of psychologists review the person's case to determine if it is a temporary sadness, a trauma/mental illness which cannot be overcome, or a metaphysical awakening. Should the last two be true, they would be permitted to kill themselves. If it is a temporary sadness, then they would be provided with the services they need to feel better.

Kadaeux said And that is just demonstrating your own lack of understanding, i'm turning thirty this year, i've lived with depression since I was about fourteen, i've had suicidal thoughts and shovelled them back in the back as the ultimate act of cowardice. As being "short sighted"Person A: Had three kids. They die in a car accident. Kills self.Person B: "OH NOES THEYZE PIKKING ON ME!" Kills self.There is no parallel. It's not belittling someone, it is recognising that person B has no valid reason IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY for suicide. Even with mental illness added on top, something I am INTIMATELY familiar with, the fact person b considered that reason enough to terminate their life isn't an ultimate act of will. It's the ultimate act of weakness.Sometimes. Yes. But in the VAST majority of cases no. In the vast majority of cases no attempt is made to fix their circumstances.

Kadaeux, I'm sorry you've dealt with depression since you were 14. It's somewhat normal for people to think about suicide, casually or otherwise. However, this does not give you the right to mock and belittle other people. Bullying is a serious issue; coupled with young hormones and depression or another mental illness, and it can be just as crushing as any other problem. Let's apply some empathy to this situation: pretend you're a freshman in highschool--this is a roleplaying site after-all.

You have no friends, no girlfriend (though everything biologically is telling you that you NEED one), and you have some physical minor abnormality... Overweight and acne. Despite the fact that you're intrinsically the same as any other human being--capable of complex thought and feeling, of learning and growing, of loving--you've been doomed to being mocked or even physically threatened daily. You feel isolated from the rest of the world. Attempts to make new friends or reach out are cut off and met with avarice. This is not something that goes away. For the next three years, everyday is the same and you fall into depression. Your grades have dropped from skipping school to avoid being tormented. You just come home from school and go to bed and lay there. You try therapy, you try anti-depressants, but nothing helps because you can't stop them from making you feel like a freak, like someone unloved, like someone inhuman. You can't wait one more year, one more month, one more day for relief to come. You take your life into your own hands and you kill yourself.

Can you really say that's not as bad? Sure, Person A lost all of their children in one setting. His pain is immediate and intense. Person B has been mocked over the course of their school career, for years. His pain is slow and grinding. The difference is the duration and intensity, not the overall feeling. This doesn't make one any better than the other.

Further, I notice that you attribute Person A's suicide to external stimulus (the death of his children) but you attribute Person B's suicide to an internal stimulus (a weakness of character). This is a type of victim blaming which is psychologically most common and related to cognitive bias; when you attribute someone's actions to an internal stimulus, you are directly blaming them for their choices. In reality, almost 80% of anyone's choices come from an external stimulus. In Person B's case, it would be bullying.

[Gat]

Your example just goes back to my original point. Psychological problems can be overcome, you state the depression is shown to be a chemical imbalance, and you say suicide is the ultimate expression of free will over ones own body/life. I challenge you to look at it from an alternate view.

To use your own example, the person has has maybe a year left or less before their social situation is likely to change due to factors entirely out of their own control. So instead of sticking it out and hanging on just that little bit longer, like they have been the past three years already, you propose they say "fuckit, this is to hard I'm out." Would it not be a greater expression of will to push on despite what their chemistry is telling them, to take it one day at a time if need be and at the very least just hang on that little bit longer, after all one year is a small time when the length of a full lifetime is taken into account.

You talk about suicide being an act of taking back control of ones life, it really isn't. Its ending that life. Its like pressing stop on a movie and then throwing it away just because one scene doesn't life up to the rest of what you've seen or been told about it. (highly simplified example I know)

Going back to your example, would it not be a greater expression of will to examine ones life, their day to day actions, the reasons other bully them, and then make positive changes. Better yet stop responding to the bullying, accept that some people are dicks and ignore them, they may escalate their bullying in the short term but if one continues to be unresponsive to that they will get bored and go pick on someone else.

also note that unlike the depression bit I am speaking from personal experience here, I think in my entire school life I had maybe 5 friends, over 13, not all at the same time. I was bullied daily, even beaten on several occasions. I responded to the beatings by learning a martial art, which in turn not only allowed me to defend myself but it taught me self discipline. I also came to the realisation that most of what bullies say is frankly out of ignorance and the desire to elevate themselves above others, even when the things they say have a ring of truth all it takes is a conscious effort to ignore them.

Anyway I've waffled on for longer than I intended, but I think I made my case.

[Kadaeux]

Mammon said The reason it is a logical fallacy is because you are not arguing against what I am actually trying to say--which is that it is merciful to allow those with enough emotional trauma to consider suicide commit it. I do not condone the execution of perfectly viable and functional people--which the deaf and blind are. What I mean is that animal life is usually considered less important than human life. If people justify the killing of animals to put them out of their misery, it should be easy to see why a human life--which has an extremely high capacity for emotional and mental pain--deserves to be given the same option of peace through death.

Which is in itself a logical fallacy.

Because an animal does I should too.

Animals have been known to mate with their parents or sibilings, so should incest be allowed?

Mammon said You are absolutely right about fear. Most suicide is an act of fear and desperation, this is true (with perhaps maybe metaphysical suicide being the one exception, but that's not really what I'm discussing). To understand how desperate it is, let's briefly think about what it's like to be on a very high building or bridge. When you look over the edge, you experience fear... Fear that you might fall and die. In many people, this fear is enough to trigger a physical response--sweaty hands, increased respiration, dilated pupil, etc. If you've had a near-death experience, recall that the fear you had then was even worse, and you may have had nightmares about it following the incident. Why? You have an innate fear of death. Most suicidal people still experience this fear of death. You said that their fear of living outweighs their fear of death. That's hugely significant! Their daily life is so full of depression, anger, guilt, and fear that they would rather kill themselves than live one more day. Can you pause an appreciate that for a moment?

And there are people who have it a thousand times worse who don't become so scared of life that they decide to take the 'easy' way out.

Mammon said This brings up an important issue: the means that someone commits suicide. Jumping in front of a train will usually kill someone, but it can leave the engineer or the passengers quite distraught. If suicide were socially understood and accepted as a last resort, I think that people would have a safe and private place to kill themselves without risking harm to other people either physically or mentally. Slavoj Zizek, a modern superstar Lacanian-Marxist philosopher, suggested that perhaps a panel of psychologists review the person's case to determine if it is a temporary sadness, a trauma/mental illness which cannot be overcome, or a metaphysical awakening. Should the last two be true, they would be permitted to kill themselves. If it is a temporary sadness, then they would be provided with the services they need to feel better.

No, you make suicide "socially understood and accepted" and you get the "Japan Problem" people killing themselves, with support, over every little problem that afflicts their life. People stop looking for help and start looking for excuses.

Mammon said Kadaeux, I'm sorry you've dealt with depression since you were 14. It's somewhat normal for people to think about suicide, casually or otherwise. However, this does not give you the right to mock and belittle other people. Bullying is a serious issue; coupled with young hormones and depression or another mental illness, and it can be just as crushing as any other problem. Let's apply some empathy to this situation: pretend you're a freshman in highschool--this is a roleplaying site after-all.

You have no friends, no girlfriend (though everything biologically is telling you that you NEED one), and you have some physical minor abnormality... Overweight and acne. Despite the fact that you're intrinsically the same as any other human being--capable of complex thought and feeling, of learning and growing, of loving--you've been doomed to being mocked or even physically threatened daily. You feel isolated from the rest of the world. Attempts to make new friends or reach out are cut off and met with avarice. This is not something that goes away. For the next three years, everyday is the same and you fall into depression. Your grades have dropped from skipping school to avoid being tormented. You just come home from school and go to bed and lay there. You try therapy, you try anti-depressants, but nothing helps because you can't stop them from making you feel like a freak, like someone unloved, like someone inhuman. You can't wait one more year, one more month, one more day for relief to come. You take your life into your own hands and you kill yourself.

Can you really say that's not as bad? Sure, Person A lost all of their children in one setting. His pain is immediate and intense. Person B has been mocked over the course of their school career, for years. His pain is slow and grinding. The difference is the duration and intensity, not the overall feeling. This doesn't make one any better than the other.

Further, I notice that you attribute Person A's suicide to external stimulus (the death of his children) but you attribute Person B's suicide to an internal stimulus (a weakness of character). This is a type of victim blaming which is psychologically most common and related to cognitive bias; when you attribute someone's actions to an internal stimulus, you are directly blaming them for their choices. In reality, almost 80% of anyone's choices come from an external stimulus. In Person B's case, it would be bullying.

Yes I really CAN say that's not as bad, seeing as how, except for "oh no nothing could possibly help me! *Suicides*" BS (Or the overweight part, until I was in my 20s I could eat a horse and not gain weight) that example WAS my high school life. I can't understand what in a BILLION years could possibly make you equate being bullied with having your CHILDREN die.

There is no "victim blaming" here. Because nobody is responsible for killing "B" in your example. They killed themselves because it was "too hard". Yes I AM blaming them for their choices. The bullies didn't kill them. Their poor grades didn't kill them. Unless something horribly horribly wrong occured acne certainly didn't.

So yes. I can empirically say it is nowhere near as bad as a parent whose children have died. The fact you think that being bullied IS as bad is a massive failure of character on your part.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There are some points here from both sides I find myself agreeing with, and others I disagree with.

-Suicide "Taking Control or Ending your life?"

I understand the rationale in saying you're taking control. But this is not a statement I can agree with. Is the person truly happier dead then alive and they want to die? Fine, let them. That's there choice and like I said earlier there is no shame in that. But it is not controlling their life anymore than a person with cancer control's their life by dying. That life is not controlled, it is over. The life has ended and the person is dead, end of story.

-Teased in School VS Losing your Child

Now everyone here seems to agree, Losing your Child is at a worse experience. At least in one sitting, no kind of bullying at school can really hit you in the same way as losing your kids will (assuming you're a parent that loves their kids enough to deserve kids in the first place that is). Now, losing your kids will also have an effect on the rest of your life. You think a parent will one day get over it and get back to normal? No, they won't. They might be able to handle their grief enough to contribute to society again, but that pain is never going to leave them. They're purpose, they're reason for living, their biggest duty and responsibility in life, the person(s) they were meant to love even more than their spouse is gone. You just don't recover from that.

So I would say losing your child is a bigger reason than being teased in school for suicide. But at the same time, being picked on in school is still a legitimate issue. I also feel a need to highlight, no two cases of Depression are going to be the same. This is true with any case of a mental diagnosis. For example, I have Autism at a High Functioning level which would be labeled as Asperger's (Ignoring the ridiculous recent ruling that just clumps all Autism together). It would be outright wrong for me though to go ahead and say all people with Autism have it as bad at I do, and struggle as much as I do with it (Which in my case isn't at all now. Unless if the person has looked at my student file, or has autism themselves they are never able to notice it). Everyone is affected differently, and at different severity. To simply say "Well I have Depression and got through High School alive. Therefore it's student to want to die over" makes as much sense as me going "Well I have Autism and can interact with everyone just fine. Therefore everyone with Autism should have no issues getting along with other people". It just doesn't work that way, that is generalizing. And doing so is a big cause of people who suffer from such conditions from not getting the help or support they need.

-Services for those Depressed & Being allowed to commit Suicide

First off, I think the fact committing suicide is a crime to begin with is ridiculous. It's the persons own choice with their own life, let them. Are going to soon make laws saying "No Skydiving" because you can die? Also, it causes those who have tried and failed to get scared and hide it rather than try to find help because they have committed a crime by trying. If you don't agree just look at cases such a drug addiction, people who get addicted don't want help kicking it because they would then be caught taking an illegal substance to begin with. Even if the act is bad for them, people will have fear to kick it if it is something society will quite literally treat them as a criminal over.

Also, people killing themselves left and right only happens if proper help and support isn't given. It will not simply spike because it is accepted. If anything it will lower cause more people can be helped. But we will have to accept, people will be in a state that cannot be helped and may truly be happier dead.

[Foster]

Tragicly selfish. Totally ruins everyone else's day.

If you can't see a reason to live, you aren't looking hard enough.

[Mammon]

When I talk about it as an exertion of will, I do not mean strength or willpower. When I say will, I mean agency or choice. I somewhat agree that killing yourself is far more simple than grinding on with a life you have no interest in living, but I think a person has a right to decide what they do to their own body--even to the point of death. I'm not trying to say that anyone should kill themselves over living... I am saying that they have a right to and it shouldn't be deemed selfish or weak. I believe the entire issue is a matter of bodily agency.

It also has very little to do with happiness and everything to do with stability. I think I agree with Schopenhauer's views on the Freudian Death Drive, which basically says that there is far more suffering in life than happiness. So what would counteract a lack of happiness and make life worth living in spite of all the suffering? Stability. It's a natural craving much more achievable than constant happiness, It's a security blanket which we can hide behind when things become far too real. Anything that shakes our stability forces us to look at the Real instead of the Virtual or ideological... Which can be quite unpleasant. After all, who wants to be reminded of trauma instead of the comforts of habit and ignorance? I hope I didn't grossly oversimplify Freud and Lacan there, and that you get my point.

Suicide is the final attempt at stability. After all, what could be more permanent and consistent than death? I don't think that killing oneself is the best choice, and I would never recommend it to anyone, Yet, given proper circumstance and consideration, it could serve to end the suffering of that person. The counterargument to this is, of course, that suicide disrupts the stability of those around the victim. I think this effect would be significantly lessened if there wasn't such a stigma behind suicide, so that it could be discussed with friends and family in a way that the concerns of the victim and others are brought to light. ...But perhaps this is too ideal.

I guess, then, even if the victim is a whiny twerp killing themselves to spite those they feel wronged by (which I highly doubt many suicides are like), it's their body and their choice.

[Kadaeux]

mammon said When I talk about it as an exertion of will, I do not mean strength or willpower. When I say will, I mean agency or choice. I somewhat agree that killing yourself is far more simple than grinding on with a life you have no interest in living, but I think a person has a right to decide what they do to their own body--even to the point of death. I'm not trying to say that anyone should kill themselves over living... I am saying that they have a right to and it shouldn't be deemed selfish or weak. I believe the entire issue is a matter of bodily agency.

And why shouldn't it be deemed selfish and weak?

It is selfish, they are so afraid of living that they often don't seek help but take it on themselves to remove themselves from the human race because "It's too hard."

It is weak, it's the ultimate act of weakness, it's the world getting them so down that they chicken out and check out early. They're too weak to continue. Too afraid.

Should they be allowed to top themselves? Sure, I don't want to waste oxygen on people who don't want to be alive. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them contemptible for their weakness. If a man kills a dozen people is he not held responsible for his weakness and wrongdoing? If a woman bashes her husband is she not held responsible for her own failings (all too often the answer is "No she isn't" for that one btw). If a teacher seduces his or her students and its discovered are they not arrested and jailed for it?

Why should suicides be held above reproach for THEIR failings. Because they're dead? Because when the murderer dies nobody has the guts to say at his funeral that he was a murdering piece of shit but instead focusses on the few small things they did right. Or how the husband-basher at her funeral has the same husband recite the good things about her instead of pointing out she was an abusive cunt that he dreamed of shooting. Or the teacher at his/her funeral and how people talk about how he/she was a strong educator, not that he or she was a sicko that engaged in statutory rape?

Too many people FAR too many people regard death as a 'cureall' well they're dead, we can't say anything bad about them they've already gotten the worst life can throw at them. Death is not a cureall. If someone is a coward and kills themselves they were still a coward and should be remembered only as such. Because in the ultimate act of cowardice in successfully removing themselves from the world they've invalidated any value their life has. They checked all that in for a one-way ticket out.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Kadaeux said -snip-

It's their life, their body, so it's their choice.
To call someone cowardly because they made a choice for their life that you wouldn't make yourself is just ignorant and close minded to others situations and to peoples rights over their own lives and body. And they are not like rapists, murderers or abusive spouses who go against other people's rights and harm them, suicide is strictly something effecting ones self.

If you want to try to argue hurt loved ones, there are many things individuals can do that loved ones will not agree with. But we don't use that as an excuse to tell those we care for how to live or act. That would be just be selfish on our part.

[Kadaeux]

Magic Magnum said
It's their life, their body, so it's their choice.To call someone cowardly because they made a choice for their life that you wouldn't make yourself is just ignorant and close minded to others situations and to peoples rights over their own lives and body.

No it isn't. To call someone cowardly because they chose to check out of life because they were afraid to live it, afraid to try and make it better, and in the vast majority of cases, actually refuse help, is not just far from ignorant. It is accurate to call them cowardly. There isn't a single reason we shouldn't hold them in contempt for their weakness. Not one.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Kadaeux said
No it isn't. To call someone cowardly because they chose to check out of life because they were afraid to live it, afraid to try and make it better, and in the vast majority of cases, actually refuse help, is not just far from ignorant. It is accurate to call them cowardly. There isn't a single reason we shouldn't hold them in contempt for their weakness. Not one.

So next time I see someone die from Cancer I'll just blame them for not getting the right help and being too weak to fight it off.