Kadaeux said
No it isn't. To call someone cowardly because they chose to check out of life because they were afraid to live it, afraid to try and make it better, and in the vast majority of cases, actually refuse help, is not just far from ignorant. It is accurate to call them cowardly. There isn't a single reason we shouldn't hold them in contempt for their weakness. Not one.

So next time I see someone die from Cancer I'll just blame them for not getting the right help and being to weak to fight it off.

Magic Magnum said
So next time I see someone die from Cancer I'll just blame them for not getting the right help and being to weak to fight it off.

People with cancer didn't go seek it out and go "Ima going to get me some cancer unf!"

People who commit suicide do.

Death is the result of Cancer.

Suicide is the result of having a mental condition.
A condition which like cancer the victim has no choice over having, it is inflicted on them the exact same way.

Most of the thread has already covered this, so instead of spending a long time saying the same point's again I'm just going to urge you both to go back and read the rest of the posts on the thread. Specifically the one's Jorick made. Until you've bothered catching up on said posts and the debate you're not in a position to be calling anyone an idiot or acting as if you know for a fact if you're right or wrong.

Magic Magnum said
Death is the result of Cancer.Suicide is the result of having a mental condition. A condition which like cancer the victim has no choice over having, it is inflicted on them the exact same way.Most of the thread has already covered this, so instead of spending a long time saying the same point's again I'm just going to urge you both to go back and read the rest of the posts on the thread. Specifically the one's Jorick made. Until you've bothered catching up on said posts and the debate you're not in a position to be calling anyone an idiot or acting as if you know for a fact if you're right or wrong.

No. Suicide is not a "result of a mental condition" suicide is a result of people deciding that that condition is too much for them.

I don't "act as if I know for a fact" whether i'm right or wrong. I DO know for a fact. I suffer from severe clinical depression. I've considered suicide before, and every time discarded it as weakness.

Demanding from a loved one to stay alive because you don't want to live through pain of loss, regardless of how much a person is suffering is what I consider selfish. In the end, we humans should be free to end our own lifes if we feel like doing it. I only hope that there will come a time when we can do it in a humane way. People should not have to jump in front of trains, from tall buildings, hang themselfs or cut their wrist when we have the technology to do it in a way that is less traumatizing and does not involve people that have nothing to do with it. I am in favor of professional suicide clinics/hospitals :)

Kadaeux said
No. Suicide is not a "result of a mental condition" suicide is a result of people deciding that that condition is too much for them. I don't "act as if I know for a fact" whether i'm right or wrong. I DO know for a fact. I suffer from severe clinical depression. I've considered suicide before, and every time discarded it as weakness.

So you are acting you know for a fact then? Having Depression doesn't mean you now know the exact case, conditions or situation each person with depression has, you just have a little bit more to relate with. I can tell this is a very personal/built up hatred for those who killed themselves you have though, one that is not going to be changed in conversation until you are actually willing to listen to other points of views and consider other opinions, so I'm going to stop this specific discussion now cause it is apparent that it is going no where.

Hatred, no. Contempt maybe.

Let me ask you a related question mate; Are you Pro-Abortion?
If the answer is yes then I suppose I see where you're coming from, you simply don't place the same value on life as Kad any myself. Life is the most precious 'commodity' so to speak on the planet becuase one its ended you can never get it back.

As has also been stated in the thread many times, the majority of suicides never try to seek help, they keep it all bottled up until they snap and off themselves. Oh sure others have brought up that they cant get help becuase parents etc don't want to hear that the person wants to commit suicide etc. but lets be frank here, how many parents want their children to die before they do, thats simple parental instinct. Despite that, at least here in the western world there are numerous options beyond parents one can seek help from.

Another clarification. not all suicides are the result of depression, in addition not all supposed depression is actually a medical condition. If you had actually read the thread btw you would see that both Kad and myself agree that euthanasia is acceptable for severe quality of life effecting illnesses and conditions. Neither of us see even clinical depression as qualifying for that because you can medicate it just fine and the person can live a normal life.

Gat said
Hatred, no. Contempt maybe.Let me ask you a related question mate; Are you Pro-Abortion?If the answer is yes then I suppose I see where you're coming from, you simply don't place the same value on life as Kad any myself. Life is the most precious 'commodity' so to speak on the planet becuase one its ended you can never get it back. As has also been stated in the thread many times, the majority of suicides never try to seek help, they keep it all bottled up until they snap and off themselves. Oh sure others have brought up that they cant get help becuase parents etc don't want to hear that the person wants to commit suicide etc. but lets be frank here, how many parents want their children to die before they do, thats simple parental instinct. Despite that, at least here in the western world there are numerous options beyond parents one can seek help from. Another clarification. not all suicides are the result of depression, in addition not all supposed depression is actually a medical condition. If you had actually read the thread btw you would see that both Kad and myself agree that euthanasia is acceptable for severe quality of life effecting illnesses and conditions. Neither of us see even clinical depression as qualifying for that because you can medicate it just fine and the person can live a normal life.

QFT

Gat said Hatred, no. Contempt maybe.Let me ask you a related question mate; Are you Pro-Abortion?If the answer is yes then I suppose I see where you're coming from, you simply don't place the same value on life as Kad any myself. Life is the most precious 'commodity' so to speak on the planet because one its ended you can never get it back.

I'm Pro-Life. I take that stance cause I don't think it's right for a mother to end the life of their child. A child is who when the topic of abortion comes up never has a say in the matter.
Now there are a ton of counter argument's to that which were all highlighted to me in the Abortion & Feminism thread's and I agreed that I couldn't argue with or disprove them. But that's a different topic for those respective threads.

Suicide however, is when the individual whose life is being lost is the one making the choice. Not another person making the choice because the person being alive is an inconvenience to them.

Gat said As has also been stated in the thread many times, the majority of suicides never try to seek help, they keep it all bottled up until they snap and off themselves. Oh sure others have brought up that they cant get help becuase parents etc don't want to hear that the person wants to commit suicide etc. but lets be frank here, how many parents want their children to die before they do, thats simple parental instinct. Despite that, at least here in the western world there are numerous options beyond parents one can seek help from.

Most parent's do not, you are correct there. But this is also assuming all parent's accept and treat depression and the want to kill one self as actual medical conditions, rather than simply being something selfish that people can simply 'snap out of'. Many parents have proven to be the kind who simply treat suicide as a selfish act and/or see depression as something that people can just snap out of. So many parents will deny help to their child up to the point the child kills themselves, simply because the parent is not treating it as the serious issue that it is.

In terms of not seeking other ways of help, we have to remember part of depression is feeling hopeless. Some of those symptoms could be not seeing the use in getting help, or in some cases denying their's a problem to begin with. Especially if those people either:

a) Were/are a very strong and independent kind of person
b) Were hurt in the past by someone using depression as an excuse, and becomes reluctant to admit to having the same thing
c) Was simply raised to see things as Depression as something you can 'snap out of' or is selfish.
-We know a ton of communities and people are still like that, it's one of the main reasons Depression often isn't treated with the same priority as physical conditions.

Now, do I personally agree with the individual not seeking help? No, I think everyone should be looking for help when in such a situation.
But it's not something I'm going to call them selfish for, or speak ill of them once their gone if they don't do it.

Gat said Another clarification. not all suicides are the result of depression, in addition not all supposed depression is actually a medical condition. If you had actually read the thread btw you would see that both Kad and myself agree that euthanasia is acceptable for severe quality of life effecting illnesses and conditions. Neither of us see even clinical depression as qualifying for that because you can medicate it just fine and the person can live a normal life.

Obviously, but in this situation the topic had been focused on suicides as a result of Depression. So I addressing it as strictly on that stance.

Also, I am very well aware that people will self-diagnose themselves with depression and do not actually have it, simply using it as an excuse for their actions and as a result hurt those that care for them and everyone who actually do suffer from depression. But if you are the point you are killing yourself, you are either saving someone or something you value every highly or you are not mentally stable. Something has happened to either make you see depression as a positive thing, or your life is simply so bad that suicide is the lesser of two evils.

May you both agree with euthanasia is acceptable or not though (which is something we agree on), is irrelevant to this topic. This topic is more on seeing Depression as something to qualify for that, where you two seem to take the stance of never. While I take the stance of it can be depending on the individual and the severity of it.

It's both.

TheNewGirl said
I want to hear people's opinions on this. Someone I work with hung herself last Wednesday. I hardly knew her, but many people I know are grieving. I have mixed opinions. What does everyone else think about this taboo?

She should have used a bullet. Hanging yourself can take like 15 mnutes if done wrong.

Their life their choice, it's disgusting to call someone with mental issues selfish.

More thoughts on Hanging and Suicide:

In hanging, death may occur from (1) asphyxia (2) cerebral congestion or apoplexy (3) coma (4) shock (5) injury to the spinal column or cord and (6) combination of any of the above.

A hanging may induce one or more of the following medical conditions:

* Closure of carotid arteries causing cerebral ischemia
* Closure the jugular veins
* Induction of carotid reflex, which reduces heartbeat when the pressure in the carotid arteries is high, causing cardiac arrest
* Breaking of the neck (cervical fracture) causing traumatic spinal cord injury
* Closure of the airway
* Death erection
* Death

Symptoms are rapid that they are rarely observed-flashes of light before the eyes, ringing in the ears, followed by unconsciousness and death.
In judicial hangings, death is pronounced at cardiac arrest, which may occur at times from several minutes up to 15 minutes or longer after hanging.

Brand said
As far as the whole selfish debate, if someone has a negative driving force strong enough to lead them to suicide I think it's ignorant for these people to stand back and call them selfish.

[2]

As for the Hell thing, I've been struggling through feeling depressed "on and off" (it's sort of always there, just gets bad at certain times) and all I do is panic and I know when I'm fighting with myself all I can think is how I disgust myself and how much of a failure I am and how everything hurts and it hurts to breathe and I feel panicked and hopeless and I wish I was dead but I'm scared of hurting anyone but myself because I'd feel selfish. Hell is nowhere in my thoughts personally. Nor was it in my sisters' thoughts when she attempted suicide, she doesn't believe in Hell or Heaven.

Turtlicious said
She should have used a bullet. Hanging yourself can take like 15 mnutes if done wrong.Their life their choice, it's disgusting to call someone with mental issues selfish.More thoughts on Hanging and Suicide:In hanging, death may occur from (1) asphyxia (2) cerebral congestion or apoplexy (3) coma (4) shock (5) injury to the spinal column or cord and (6) combination of any of the above.A hanging may induce one or more of the following medical conditions:* Closure of carotid arteries causing cerebral ischemia* Closure the jugular veins* Induction of carotid reflex, which reduces heartbeat when the pressure in the carotid arteries is high, causing cardiac arrest* Breaking of the neck (cervical fracture) causing traumatic spinal cord injury* Closure of the airway* Death erection* DeathSymptoms are rapid that they are rarely observed-flashes of light before the eyes, ringing in the ears, followed by unconsciousness and death.In judicial hangings, death is pronounced at cardiac arrest, which may occur at times from several minutes up to 15 minutes or longer after hanging.

I saw something, and it was a chart of how painful different deaths are (on a scale of 100). I believe that shooting oneself in the head was like 15 and hanging oneself was in the high nineties and bleeding out from the wrists was in the seventies or eighties and overdosing was high too so I just thought it was strange how people always seem to be romanticizing the higher pain deaths (hanging, bleeding out, overdosing, and drowning). Just a thought. I don't know how accurate it is, of course but yeah.

Skittlez said
[2]As for the Hell thing, I've been struggling through feeling depressed "on and off" (it's sort of always there, just gets bad at certain times) and all I do is panic and I know when I'm fighting with myself all I can think is how I disgust myself and how much of a failure I am and how everything hurts and it hurts to breathe and I feel panicked and hopeless and I wish I was dead but I'm scared of hurting anyone but myself because I'd feel selfish. Hell is nowhere in my thoughts personally. Nor was it in my sisters' thoughts when she attempted suicide, she doesn't believe in Hell or Heaven.I saw something, and it was a chart of how painful different deaths are (on a scale of 100). I believe that shooting oneself in the head was like 15 and hanging oneself was in the high nineties and bleeding out from the wrists was in the seventies or eighties and overdosing was high too so I just thought it was strange how people always seem to be romanticizing the higher pain deaths (hanging, bleeding out, overdosing, and drowning). Just a thought. I don't know how accurate it is, of course but yeah.

People romanticize "harder" deaths because they're harder, actually. You feel more pain, there's more of a twisted sense of release when one dies instead of just a quick "pop" and then you're out.

Same reason why ritualistic suicides or sacrifices are usually extremely painful. It's a mark of pain tolerance. It's one thing to die from a bullet to the head, but another to be so determined to die that you would lay on the ground in screaming agony for twenty minutes after cutting yourself open.

My bits:

First, ultimately, I think when you commit suicide, it is always for yourself, except the immolating monks et. Al. I have never heard of a sad person committing suicide by selfless deed. Nobody writes a note saying how much their life sucks and takes off to Africa and helps people until they catch something and die.

Second, if you believe in an afterlife, there is no reason to kill yourself. You will now get to hear everything those people say BEHIND your back. You will meet some nice people, but I imagine they won't be happy with what you put your family through.

If you do not believe in an afterlife, then killing yourself prevents any chance of being happy in the future. Only if you are in excruciating physical pain would it make sense.

Ergo, in neither case is committing suicide because you were insulted a good idea.

^^^^
Normal people generally don't commit suicide, just saying.

Most have a mental illness.