*makes angry moth noises*
Grif of Hearts Sometimes vaguely amusing
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6 yrs ago
Dervish Let's get volatile
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0-24 hrs ago
I don't think it's a case of people trying to pretend he's a good guy, for much of the stuff you said. He's still a largely immoral, egocentric sister-banging asshole who's done pretty much one redeeming thing in his entire life that he can't even talk about. I think the main issue people have is what I kind of outlined, which is it was just so damn jarring to how him and Cersei are portrayed in the books. Cersei to Jaime is everything and I can't really picture him deliberately being sexually violent towards her, at least not to THAT degree, you know? Just because he's guilty of a list of immoral things longer than my arm doesn't mean it's in his nature to do absolutely everything abhorrent, you know? It's kind of like if suddenly, Sandor Clegane turned around and raped Sansa or Arya. He's a cold blooded killer and a violent, absolutely unlikeable man (well, one of my favorite characters, but if we're speaking from an in-series perspective), but I can't imagine him ever doing anything like that, especially since his brother is the reigning champion of wartime atrocities. Or if Jon Snow turned around and started bullying Sam Tarly to get the approval of his fellow Brothers.
It's not that people are really offended by the act itself, because you kind of have to be used to it/ accept it as a part of the narrative to stick with it this far, it's just that how the scene in question was executed was a huge departure from the book and what people feel is Jaime's character. If they played it out more like the book, I don't think people would nearly mind as much. Keep in mind that a big part of Jaime and Cersei's narrative moving forward is how it becomes more and more clear that Cersei never loved Jaime, at least not to the extent he loved her, and was more or less using him, and him starting to discover that fact and distance himself from her, which becomes quite pivotal later on. He's proven to be entirely devoted to Cersei, and there's been nobody else, something he's pointed out on a few occasions. Just how that scene was executed just felt plain wrong and at odds with the book and blah blah blah, we're going around in circles. :P
TL;DR Jaime's a terrible human being, but how that scene played out really didn't seem to reflect the character properly, especially compared to how it played out in the source material. He's capable of a great many crimes he needs to be held accountable for, but what was widely interpreted as a passionate act between two receptive parties who loved each other since birth should have never been portrayed as a cold, violent rape for reasons we've beat to death kind of like what happens later on in this season.
It's not that people are really offended by the act itself, because you kind of have to be used to it/ accept it as a part of the narrative to stick with it this far, it's just that how the scene in question was executed was a huge departure from the book and what people feel is Jaime's character. If they played it out more like the book, I don't think people would nearly mind as much. Keep in mind that a big part of Jaime and Cersei's narrative moving forward is how it becomes more and more clear that Cersei never loved Jaime, at least not to the extent he loved her, and was more or less using him, and him starting to discover that fact and distance himself from her, which becomes quite pivotal later on. He's proven to be entirely devoted to Cersei, and there's been nobody else, something he's pointed out on a few occasions. Just how that scene was executed just felt plain wrong and at odds with the book and blah blah blah, we're going around in circles. :P
TL;DR Jaime's a terrible human being, but how that scene played out really didn't seem to reflect the character properly, especially compared to how it played out in the source material. He's capable of a great many crimes he needs to be held accountable for, but what was widely interpreted as a passionate act between two receptive parties who loved each other since birth should have never been portrayed as a cold, violent rape for reasons we've beat to death kind of like what happens later on in this season.
Dervish Let's get volatile
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0-24 hrs ago
Grif of Hearts said
*makes angry moth noises*
Debating if I should post what I have so far and Vakte and I's collab can be the second post continuing that.
Mosis Tosis
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3 yrs ago
Dervish said
I don't think it's a case of people trying to pretend he's a good guy, for much of the stuff you said. He's still a largely immoral, egocentric sister-banging asshole who's done pretty much one redeeming thing in his entire life that he can't even talk about. I think the main issue people have is what I kind of outlined, which is it was just so damn jarring to how him and Cersei are portrayed in the books. Cersei to Jaime is everything and I can't really picture him deliberately being sexually violent towards her, at least not to THAT degree, you know? Just because he's guilty of a list of immoral things longer than my arm doesn't mean it's in his nature to do absolutely everything abhorrent, you know? It's kind of like if suddenly, Sandor Clegane turned around and raped Sansa or Arya. He's a cold blooded killer and a violent, absolutely unlikeable man (well, one of my favorite characters, but if we're speaking from an in-series perspective), but I can't imagine him ever doing anything like that, especially since his brother is the reigning champion of wartime atrocities.
This isn't entirely relevant, but depending on your interpretation of a certain scene in Clash of Kings, Sandor does consider raping Sansa. I think it's interesting that you compare these two characters, since I feel they're more similar than almost any other two characters: both "knights" that disagree with the standard conventions of chivalry and knighthood that exist in Westeros, and only differ in their method of dealing with that issue. Sandor isn't trying to "redeem" himself, so I think that's why a lot of his immoral acts seem to be perfectly in character and "justified." Jaime is trying, at least somewhat, to make himself a better person, but I think at a base level he's just as big of a douche as Sandor (Moreso even), and that was displayed efficiently with the sept scene.
Dervish said
Or if Jon Snow turned around and started bullying Sam Tarly to get the approval of his fellow Brothers. It's not that people are really offended by the act itself, because you kind of have to be used to it/ accept it as a part of the narrative to stick with it this far, it's just that how the scene in question was executed was a huge departure from the book and what people feel is Jaime's character. If they played it out more like the book, I don't think people would nearly mind as much. Keep in mind that a big part of Jaime and Cersei's narrative moving forward is how it becomes more and more clear that Cersei never loved Jaime, at least not to the extent he loved her, and was more or less using him, and him starting to discover that fact and distance himself from her, which becomes quite pivotal later on. He's proven to be entirely devoted to Cersei, and there's been nobody else, something he's pointed out on a few occasions. Just how that scene was executed just felt plain wrong and at odds with the book and blah blah blah, we're going around in circles. :PTL;DR Jaime's a terrible human being, but how that scene played out really didn't seem to reflect the character properly, especially compared to how it played out in the source material. He's capable of a great many crimes he needs to be held accountable for, but what was widely interpreted as a passionate act between two receptive parties who loved each other since birth should have never been portrayed as a cold, violent rape for reasons we've beat to death kind of like what happens later on in this season.
Cersei was Jaime's everything, but just as you said, their relationship at this point is the slow realization by Jaime that Cersei truly is a terrible person, and is just using him. Does it not make sense that, given what we know about Jaime, that once he realized that truth his anger would manifest as violence? I find it quite believable. And what if they had played the scene out just as it was in the books? Honestly, it wouldn't have made any sense. At least in the book she had a reason to reciprocate: it was her reunion with Jaime, and that factored into it pretty heavily. How weird would it be if they actually had enjoyable, consensual sex next to the body of their dead child, in the middle of a church, just because? Though book readers would have probably said "oh hey neat" while watching that scene, I'd bet most show-watchers would've just been like "wtf, why?" That might have been in character for Jaime (who doesn't care about Joff and just wants to get laid), but it would've been way out of character for Cersei, and then we would've been having this discussion from a different perspective.
GM
Gowi said
Debating if I should post what I have so far and Vakte and I's collab can be the second post continuing that.
If Vakte's cool with it, I don't see why not. If it's too ahead of what's going on on the Nova side, we can just treat it as different points in time.
Dervish Let's get volatile
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0-24 hrs ago
Oh god, I hope that people didn't read/ watch that scene and say "Oh, neat!" that would be fucking horrible. XD
Then again, knowing the internet...
But yeah, I totally get where you're coming from, and I'll freely admit that some of my memory is hazy because I've only read the books through once and that was last year, and given how Titan-sized each book is, there's lots that's slipped between the cracks. I think we're mostly in agreement about how things are, just saying it all a bit differently and maybe having slightly differing takes on one scene out of several really fucked up scenes in the series, so it's kind of a minor point. Lots of stuff's different between the source and adaptation. Another big one that I'm surprised more people didn't get worked up over was Khal Drogo's relationship with Dany when they were first married.
Out of everything, I'm most annoyed about them changing Asha Greyjoy's name because they were worried that the show audience would be too retarded to tell the difference between when people were talking about Asha and Osha, considering that they never met in the series and are never talked about at the same time, ever. Then again, people bitch and complain about how hard it is being able to tell the difference between some of the characters, like Lord Commander Mormont, Davos Seaworth, Barristen Selmy, and Rodrick Cassel, or Stannis Baratheon and Roose Bolton. Some people need friggin' training wheels and colouring books. >_>
Then again, knowing the internet...
But yeah, I totally get where you're coming from, and I'll freely admit that some of my memory is hazy because I've only read the books through once and that was last year, and given how Titan-sized each book is, there's lots that's slipped between the cracks. I think we're mostly in agreement about how things are, just saying it all a bit differently and maybe having slightly differing takes on one scene out of several really fucked up scenes in the series, so it's kind of a minor point. Lots of stuff's different between the source and adaptation. Another big one that I'm surprised more people didn't get worked up over was Khal Drogo's relationship with Dany when they were first married.
Out of everything, I'm most annoyed about them changing Asha Greyjoy's name because they were worried that the show audience would be too retarded to tell the difference between when people were talking about Asha and Osha, considering that they never met in the series and are never talked about at the same time, ever. Then again, people bitch and complain about how hard it is being able to tell the difference between some of the characters, like Lord Commander Mormont, Davos Seaworth, Barristen Selmy, and Rodrick Cassel, or Stannis Baratheon and Roose Bolton. Some people need friggin' training wheels and colouring books. >_>
Gowi said
Debating if I should post what I have so far and Vakte and I's collab can be the second post continuing that.
Dude I've have six 16 hour long shifts. Plus kids. I'm taking my time so feel free to post up :)
Vakte said
Dude I've have six 16 hour long shifts. Plus kids. I'm taking my time so feel free to post up :)
Remind me never to have kids until I'm waaaaay older.
I'm only 23 man lol.
Vakte said
I'm only 23 man lol.
I know, that's the point. Remind me not to be in that situation until I'm twenty years older at 45, lul.
Vakte said
I'm only 23 man lol.
O_o!
I'm 22 and I can't even imagine what it would be like to have kids right now.
You are a manly man.
GM
Volt - 
The fuck?
I wish I had known that gif existed when I made a moth sig.
On the Jaime thing again. Derv already said it, but yeah, it wasn't the act itself, it was that it didn't make sense. I got why he pushed the kid off, and to a lesser degree why he killed his family to get out a cell. If the rape was supposed to be out of hate, the show didn't build that up at all. What they built up was that Cersei was rebuffing him, and he saw his son die. He seemed frustrated, maybe desperate, but he didn't seem to realize Cersei was a bad person. Beyond the sudden "hateful woman" comment slapped onto the rape scene (and a writer shouldn't make the build-up seconds before the pay-off).
I haven't seen Jaime written as someone that experiences flash moments/fits of violence, either. Not toward other characters he despises, and not toward family. Which is what it reads like, as the show is.
I get your points, Mosis, to explain it. I can see where the action'd make sense, from that perspective. Though violent rape still seems like a weird way for Jaime Lannister to go, if he had those problems. The thing is (what causes me not to agree with your sentiment fully), I don't think the show really set those points up (other than the general rejection at King's Landing). Which is the show's job. Viewers shouldn't have to explain/justify the cause and effect to other viewers.
And yeah, I agree, it likely wouldn't be any better if it followed the books to the letter, due to the changed conditions before. I can't say that, at that point, there would have been a better way to do it.
The fuck? I wish I had known that gif existed when I made a moth sig.
On the Jaime thing again. Derv already said it, but yeah, it wasn't the act itself, it was that it didn't make sense. I got why he pushed the kid off, and to a lesser degree why he killed his family to get out a cell. If the rape was supposed to be out of hate, the show didn't build that up at all. What they built up was that Cersei was rebuffing him, and he saw his son die. He seemed frustrated, maybe desperate, but he didn't seem to realize Cersei was a bad person. Beyond the sudden "hateful woman" comment slapped onto the rape scene (and a writer shouldn't make the build-up seconds before the pay-off).
I haven't seen Jaime written as someone that experiences flash moments/fits of violence, either. Not toward other characters he despises, and not toward family. Which is what it reads like, as the show is.
I get your points, Mosis, to explain it. I can see where the action'd make sense, from that perspective. Though violent rape still seems like a weird way for Jaime Lannister to go, if he had those problems. The thing is (what causes me not to agree with your sentiment fully), I don't think the show really set those points up (other than the general rejection at King's Landing). Which is the show's job. Viewers shouldn't have to explain/justify the cause and effect to other viewers.
And yeah, I agree, it likely wouldn't be any better if it followed the books to the letter, due to the changed conditions before. I can't say that, at that point, there would have been a better way to do it.
Anyway, I've posted as suggested and looks good enough as a post to me with detail and ability for Vakte to springboard off of.
Dervish Let's get volatile
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0-24 hrs ago
Voltaire said
O_o!I'm 22 and I can't even imagine what it would be like to have kids right now. You are a manly man.
He has very prestigious loins.
GM
I've got no idea how you sleep, Vakte, let alone how you RP. I salute you for spitting on the rules of impossibility.
Gowi - Awesome, good to see another post up. :]
Who's Seaworth? Why are they seaworthy?
What's a Baratheon?
Why are we talking about castles?
Is Selmy a type of cat? Is it the cat we color in?:
Gowi - Awesome, good to see another post up. :]
Dervish said
Then again, people bitch and complain about how hard it is being able to tell the difference between some of the characters, like Lord Commander Mormont, Davos Seaworth, Barristen Selmy, and Rodrick Cassel, or Stannis Baratheon and Roose Bolton. Some people need friggin' training wheels and colouring books. >_>
Who's Seaworth? Why are they seaworthy?
What's a Baratheon?
Why are we talking about castles?
Is Selmy a type of cat? Is it the cat we color in?:
Voltin Commander Zappy
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8 yrs ago
Tick said
Volt - The fuck? I wish I had known that gif existed when I made a moth sig.
Tumblr is amazing for fining obscure gifs and pictures. :P
Voltaire said
O_o!I'm 22 and I can't even imagine what it would be like to have kids right now. You are a manly man.
I was 18 when they arrived, and I wasn't exactly smart with planning lol.
GM
Hey, does anyone remember the xenophobes? They were in one side Citadel convo in ME1, where they were protesting something?
I recall them being a group, but I'm blanking on their names.
I recall them being a group, but I'm blanking on their names.
Okay so I'm curious, would you guys be willing to take on a Yahg that was part of a Salarian STG research project? If not I have other ideas, but I have been dying to play my Yahg character again.
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