Bleach: Reborn

[Rin]

@yoshua171Well, I'd assume you'd have a mature discussion with the other participant about it. Always seems to work out fine.

...The idea that you're "winning" or "losing" such a thing really rubs me the wrong way, honestly. ^^;

[yoshua171]

At the end of the day I care more about the uncertainty of it which creates a certain tension and I enjoy the development that takes place during that combat. Plus the "winning," feeling, for me, is more along the lines of "Yes, my tactics payed off :D"

I'd be less inclined to really care about a fight if nothing was on the line. It's just like how making a bet is virtually meaningless unless there's actually something you're betting for. I don't know. I'm weird. I'm also bad at explaining this because it's not really a logical thing, not entirely at least.

EDIT: The best way I can think of to say it is this:

It's not about who wins or loses, it's about the quality of the fight and if the two people enjoy it. I happen to enjoy the fight more if I don't know who wins. Otherwise my throwing in so much effort into it doesn't really feel terribly meaningful.

More often than not whomever wins a fight, unless it's one of those things that is judged by a 3rd party (which I've seen work negatively too...blah. I've RPed too long xD), I'll commend their efforts, congratulate them, and say "Well fought," or a similar phrase *shrugs*

If that fails to properly explain, then "To each their own," I guess.

[Crimson Raven]

@yoshua171

Hello, hello, I think I know you :P

Edit: To address your statment, too often the battle desovles into a dick measuring contest, where one (usualy the loser) does something increadable, then the other one ups them, then, becuase neither wants to loose, and there really is no limit to what you can do in writting, the battle becomes more and more ridiculous.

This is just one way a battle can go, another, would be one does something the other sees as unfair, they argue, and one hets so frustrated they either quit or stall.

Predetermining the winner is by no means a pefect solution, but it is one solution.

[yoshua171]

@yoshua171
Hello, hello, I think I know you :P

@Crimson Raven

You do you do! Lol haha. I was in the Fairy Tail RP for awhile. Phoenix Wing I believe?

I had the enchanter (of sorts).

@Rin One other thing to add to my previous point. Maybe a bet isn't the best thing to compare this to.

It's more like this:

Fighting someone is a risk and just like in real life, if there is no pay off or no positive thing to gain from taking that risk, then what's the point of taking the risk? The answer is there really isn't a point in doing so. Why would you do something risky if the only thing you got out of it was crushing failure, getting hurt, dying, etc etc.

The only counterpoint I can think of is that you might learn from your mistakes(provided you survive, as combat in Bleach tends to be fatal for the losing party), which can make for good character development (in both real life and in a RP), but that's not my problem. If my character loses, that's fine. I just want the chance to let the fight and the interaction in that fight decide that loss, rather than a third party or a conversation prior. Regardless, I'm a late comer and it seems like people in the previous thread are essentially for that rule so my complaints/points are probably just arguing against a foregone conclusion.

[Raineh Daze]

I've always gotten more bored having to take fights seriously, especially as half the time it turns into someone churning out a wall of text trying to cover the next several moves in a fight that reads something like:

Do X
If X Succeeds, Do Y
If Y Succeeds, Do Z else Do A
Else Do Z a different way OR A

With so many conditions that it's never clear what the hell is going on and replying posts have to navigate a damn flowchart and then end up looking the same... whilst being an unreadable rat's nest that has gone from past tense to various forms of future.

If you know who's going to win, then you can focus on making it... well, readable. And have both players working towards the same outcome rather than two different victories. It's not hard to work together.

[RolePlayerRoxas]

@RolePlayerRoxas That certainly would be an interesting idea not at all what I had in mind for one of the Arrancar but I wasn't sure about using it myself. It would make your character similar to Ukitake in which he rarely uses his Shikai and definitely Bankai, which is fine, but I guess it would mean a more...reluctant kind of character? I think using an ability like that too many times would become tiresome as the fights would have the same kind of dynamics (What's your ability? my ability? I'm shocked. But it's my ability, I know it entirely. Sploosh) obviously the fights wont necessarily go that way but.

@Blackbeard

To clarify, my intentions for such a power is that it's only ever a last resort. While the character himself would have reservations about using 'other people's tricks', another issue for the ability would be... however it's applied. For example, if it could copy zanpakuto's down to their released forms, there'd be the issue of "Okay, so I copied Odaiba's huge-ass mace... except I have no idea how to fight with a mace". And even if it was a weapon he was comfortable with, he'd still need knowledge of its abilities and how to use them.

In short, he'd have to research literally everyone's abilities and fighting styles, somehow train to be proficient in every type of weapon you could imagine, and pray that he can use said abilities better than the original wielder. So instead of all that, he'd focus more on swordsmanship and probably defensive kidos to fight, and leave his shikai/bankai as last resorts.

...That said, if you have a villain that would use that ability, I can always find something less bothersome to go for.

[yoshua171]

Edit: To address your statement, too often the battle dissolves into a dick measuring contest, where one (usually the loser) does something incredible, then the other one ups them, then, because neither wants to lose, and there really is no limit to what you can do in writing, the battle becomes more and more ridiculous.

This is just one way a battle can go, another, would be one does something the other sees as unfair, they argue, and one gets so frustrated they either quit or stall.

Predetermining the winner is by no means a perfect solution, but it is one solution.

@Crimson Raven

Ah, yeah I have seen this happen before as well. Often some easy measures of certain skills (in bleach: Hoho, Hakuda(hand to hand combat) Zanpakuto(ability to wield it, rather than its abilities), reiatsu/reiryoku, and Kido tend to help with that a lot.

Having a measuring stick that's the same for everyone helps figure out who is good at what and assist in making sure that someone who has better swordsmanship than someone else wins in a sword clash (barring special circumstances and tactics) helps. That way you can objectively go “Oh, your character is faster than mine, alright, so I won't be blitzing them or vanishing from sight unless it's an ability or I trick them with clever footwork and obstacles.” Etc etc etc. So on and so forth.

I've always gotten more bored having to take fights seriously, especially as half the time it turns into someone churning out a wall of text trying to cover the next several moves in a fight that reads something like:

Do X
If X Succeeds, Do Y
If Y Succeeds, Do Z else Do A
Else Do Z a different way OR A

With so many conditions that it's never clear what the hell is going on and replying posts have to navigate a damn flowchart and then end up looking the same... whilst being an unreadable rat's nest that has gone from past tense to various forms of future.

If you know who's going to win, then you can focus on making it... well, readable. And have both players working towards the same outcome rather than two different victories. It's not hard to work together.

@Raineh Daze

Yeah, this often happens when someone--foolishly--tries to do one hundred things in the same post OR, conversely, tries to cover any possible action with a beneficial reaction (one that benefits them to be specific). It's not a good move and it is often far more intelligent (and saves time) to keep your responses relatively simple, or at least without too many "what ifs."

Not only is having too many clunky and breaks immersion, but there is no possible way to cover all possible actions of your opponent, there just isn't. I know this from experience, also because people try to do that to me all the time and every single time they do it, it fails and blows up in their faces (because I like attacking from oblique angles, so to speak. If you give me two options, I'm more likely to make a third, fourth, and fifth option and take one of those instead).

[Raineh Daze]

<Snipped quote by Crimson Raven>
Ah, yeah I have seen this happen before as well. Often some easy measures of certain skills (in bleach: Hoho, Hakuda(hand to hand combat) Zanpakuto(ability to wield it, rather than its abilities), reiatsu/reiryoku, and Kido tend to help with that a lot.

Having a measuring stick that's the same for everyone helps figure out who is good at what and assist in making sure that someone who has better swordsmanship than someone else wins in a sword clash (barring special circumstances and tactics) helps. That way you can objectively go “Oh, your character is faster than mine, alright, so I won't be blitzing them or vanishing from sight unless it's an ability or I trick them with clever footwork and obstacles.” Etc etc etc. So on and so forth.

@yoshua171

... at which point you're working out the outcome beforehand anyway. :P

[yoshua171]

<Snipped quote by yoshua171>
... at which point you're working out the outcome beforehand anyway. :P

@Raineh Daze

Nope, not the same thing actually. I can explain if you're interesting, if not I'll just leave it at that for the sake of simplicity haha.

[Blackbeard]

@Empath Haha well don't blame me if your Exams don't go well! The OOC will probably happen tomorrow or the day after. As for the plot details it wont actually be explained. Certain event will arise and you guys will come to learn what it all means etc. There will be a log in the OOc that explains what has happened in the story so far for quick reference and to show where we are up to.

@yoshua171 Don't worry about the mentions, happy to answer questions.

How do you accurately decide what character can beat another character and then make it feel somewhat realistic (or rather believable) if one person appears to clearly have the advantage, but they are slated to lose?

@yoshua171

This question is born entirely of competitive intent. Whilst I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I am saying that is not what I want in this RP. There shouldn't even be a question of 'how can your character beat my character'. Imagine if you were working solely on a fight scene, just you describing a fight between two characters, the priority in such an instance has to be the writing. Its an exercise in literary pacing, designed to give the reader (<-- Important word there) a rush of excitement during the story. Authors don't write fight scenes to see their creation win, they do it to develop story, to develop the character. Losing in actual fact often grows a character more than winning does.

At the end of the day I care more about the uncertainty of it which creates a certain tension and I enjoy the development that takes place during that combat. Plus the "winning," feeling, for me, is more along the lines of "Yes, my tactics payed off :D"

@yoshua171

Your seem to have a dual viewpoint, of the reader AND writer. That feeling of uncertainty, the tension, it's all for the reader, for your audience. When you watch a show and your favorite character is fighting you will them on, you want them to succeed, which is great, but when the writer becomes invested in his own character to such a degree that he reacts like his own intended audience your in danger of skewing your writing and your character.
It is like the difference between a game and a movie. In a movie you sit down and watch events unfold, a story is created by the studio for your entertainment, the people who made the film get a different kind of pay off. They gain pride in what they created and how they were able to tell the story.
Your approach is like that of a game, you are given a world, a setting an in that setting you are allowed to make your character and control them and it is your intent to beat the game with said character. The people who made the game can also do this, they get to be their own audience and play what they have created, I don't think this can happen in an RP without the rules and stats and data that a game would have.

In short, I want this RP to be a movie, its about how the story is told. Not a game, in which you choose which story to tell.

I hope that all made sense :S either way I also hope that non of what I have said comes across as my dislike of you or your approach, I appreciate the desire for competitive fight-writing its simply not what I'm shooting for in this RP. If you do decide to join then we shall gladly have you, if not then I wish you luck in all arena battles!

P.S I've not read any posts that might have come after me starting this post.

EDIT: Oh I do have to add that yes. The winner will be decided by the participants of the fight, if any problem arises bring it up in OOC. It helps a lot to plan the fight and how/what will happen. For example make a little bullet point plan such as

- Ok we start, your more powerful so you kind throw me around a bit
- I go Shikai and start to get on an even footing
- You go Shikai and overpower me once again really badly
- I use this trick to gain a quick advantage and strike
- your badly hurt but wont lose to someone like me so go Bankai
- I die

@RolePlayerRoxas That sounds fine, if you want to go for that I have no problem.

[Raineh Daze]

@Blackbeard What do you mean exactly by no silliness? Between Captain Furry, Charlotte Cuulhorne, Nnoitra's spoon outfit, Butterflaizen (and Aizen's mullet), that one guy whose resureccion looks like a pumpkin, Kyoraku's shikai being 'play children's games', and every other weird piece of character design, there's certainly a lot of seemingly absurd stuff going around in canon.

[Blackbeard]

@Raineh Daze I'm not saying NO LAUGHING ALLOWED or anything and perhaps I misinterpreted the intent, what I'm saying is I'd like to avoid characters like Kon, someone whom doesn't add to the story and is simply there for comic relief. Funny characters are great as long as they are useful

[VitaVitaAR]

Oh, when I said silly I didn't mean something just totally goofy with no ability to be serious whatsoever. ^^;

@Rin made it more clear, something like Yachiru. ^^; And I've never read it but I know a fair bit about it and stuff, at least to know I like the earlier stuff.

[yoshua171]

@Blackbeard Ah. I do see your point and I understand your intentions. I will make one comment in regards to your assessment of me: Yes it's more like a game than a movie to me. However, it's like an RPG MMO, and people like to RP their characters in those, create guilds, stories, etc etc.

Nonetheless, we seem to have conflicting views on the subject and while we could probably go on and on about it (I know I could), I see myself becoming frustrated with the debate, not because of anyone else, but because i know myself. So I think I'll just back out.

Two last things though before I leave you to it.

One, I am a RPer as are all of you, and more often than not RP is a shortened version of Roleplaying, as you well know, but this is often a short form of Roleplaying game. Those are the roots of what we're doing. So the original nature of things is more in line with a game than it is a movie. Also, I get excited to see what my character will do as well as to see how people will respond to those actions. That is to say I enjoy writing my characters as they often surprise me despite my having created them. It's not so much that I have a conflict between being a reader and being a writer, so much as it is that I RP because that's what RPing IS. It is reading other people's responses to your writing and then responding in kind.

Secondly, I did say I wasn't good at explaining my point and in the process of failing to explain it I learned something from the responses to it. Namely, how better to explain it. The question was never really an ego thing such as "How could your character possibly beat mine??" but more along the lines of "How could anyone know how another character will act when faced against someone else that they've never fought before. How can you believably predict that dynamic and then decide who ought to win?" The answer is you can't. At the end of the day you're making the decision based entirely off of character development and plot (which I understand and wish you luck on as i would any other), but also happens to be something I don't agree with.

It's the equivalent of Ichigo...

spoilers

...winning against Ulquiorra out of nowhere with his Hollow transformation for the plot...

...when he clearly was outclassed, outgunned, and utterly dwarfed by him in power/skill/experience. It's not believable. I'm not saying that's how it will turn out all the time, or even most of the time, but that's my reasoning and it's also one of the big reasons I dislike predetermining, well, anything in a RP unless it's far off and the event isn't affected by the actions of players aside from certain adjustments.

Regardless, I wish this the best as it's nice to see a Bleach RP gaining some traction on the Guild again. unfortunately, and sadly for me, it seems it's not quite my cup of tea ^^;

Anywho, ciao~

[Blackbeard]

@yoshua171 Thank you for showing interest!

EDIT: I don't disagree with your points, I'm just not trying to make an RP like that. If it happens to be what everyone wants then something might develop.

[Empath]

@Blackbeard

@Empath Haha well don't blame me if your Exams don't go well! The OOC will probably happen tomorrow or the day after. As for the plot details it wont actually be explained. Certain event will arise and you guys will come to learn what it all means etc. There will be a log in the OOc that explains what has happened in the story so far for quick reference and to show where we are up to.

Dangit, and here I had hoped for an easy excuse to me failing... >.<

[Yvain]

What the fudge. I come back to read all this!? //SIGHHH. Hah, glad to see this active though c:

edit: caught up. Wow, a lot has been happening..

[Marrow]

Can't wait for the OOC, is see that there are more players who want the position im aiming for... this'll be an interesting 'competition'

[Empath]

Can't wait for the OOC, is see that there are more players who want the position im aiming for... this'll be an interesting 'competition'

@Marrow

Uhh... What are people actually aiming for? I am thinking of doing a lieutenant (haven't even decided on a division yet), but if there are too many others I might have to reconsider.

[Yvain]

3rd division captain. But there's no reservations I believe, just competition for the role c: I'm worried the OOC thread will be made super late at my timezone OTL. I just wanna do the CS already too hahahahah