Are we expecting too much from newbs?

[boomlover]

@Ellri Interesting, But how elitist are we talking here?

[Ellri]

Terribly so. Nauseatingly.

"filthy casuals" was a common attitude among them. Unfortunately, it wasn't in joke.

[boomlover]

oh. Wow i'm happy those assholes left then. Let us hope they will never come back or that we will turn into them instead. Time will tell however. Time will tell.

[Ellri]

whenever there is a separation based on lingual quality and/or writing length, some elitism will inevitably arise. Humans tend to want to make themselves look better than others. The important thing, which is generally seen as being the way it should be for the current guild by the responses in this thread, is to make sure it is the exception rather than the rule.

[boomlover]

@Ellri Here is hoping it will not become a norm like it once was. And if it does ill start loading up my shotgun and start going on elitist hunt.

[Ellri]

Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. ELITIST SEASON!!!

[boomlover]

@Ellri HELL YEAH !!!!!

[Vor]

I don't even know why the various sections get associated with writing skill, it's something that has been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I've used RP'ing boards. A guy writing a two sentence post in Free can be a better writer than someone who's putting out novella-like posts in Advanced. I view it as more of how much time you're willing to invest in an RP. Advanced obviously demands a larger chunk of time, because you need to go in-depth, whereas Casual or Free is a easier to deal with and work into a busy schedule. Either way, they are categories, not a social ladder - you don't have to work your way up from the depths of Free to "ascend" to Advanced.

RP at the level you feel like, skill and experience hardly factor into it. I started out RP'ing when I was 13 as well, my first ever RP was in the Casual section (by the Guild's standards), but I realised I prefer longer, more detailed stories so I went into Advanced without giving it much thought. I certainly didn't have the skill most of the participants had (one of them went on to become a published writer), but that didn't stop me from enjoying myself, plus I learned a lot.

How you behave yourself on an OOC level is another matter entirely. From my experience, most people on the internet don't care about your age, your gender, your sexual preference, your nationality, your skin colour and so forth. It's all about your attitude; if you behave like an asshole people will perceive you as an asshole, if you behave like a chill guy people will perceive you as that (regardless of what you might be IRL). That's the great thing about the internet, you can be whatever you want to be without being weighed down by the burdens inherent in physical communication.

[Dion]

@Vor I agree with your bit about the levels - though, I am hesitant in accepting that a guy writing in 'free' with 2 sentences can be a better writer than someone in advanced.

Yes he can be, but he's not showing it. So, I'm inclined to believe that if anything, free roleplay in itself fulfills the tasks it should - taking care of those people who want fast paced back and forth. I'd argue that that is not an indication of skill, but it's a strange coincidence that some of the 'less good' writers are often in free roleplay. So I'd be inclined to think there's at least some correlation.

[MiddleEarthRoze]

@Vor@Buddha

You'll also find far more issues in terms of correct grammar and spelling in the free section. Not complaining myself - the whole point is there aren't any standards in that section, barring what the particular GM demands. But I wouldn't allow someone who "writs lik dis" in their roleplaying into a casual roleplay I was GMing - unless they decided to write properly, of course.

However, this shouldn't lead to discrimination or elitism. Free players, Casual players and Advanced are all pretty different in generalised terms, and you shouldn't judge somebody just because they write differently than you. Hence, why we have different sections - problems would (and likely have) arisen if someone were to join a roleplay where their writing level isn't up to the specific standards laid out by said GM. The different sections help us avoid confrontations like that, for the most part.

[Dion]

@MiddleEarthRoze no, I think you are wrong. Correct grammar and spelling are criteria for being a good writer. You don't see Tolkien writing about how 'Legles stab te ork in te fac wit a arow'. They are criteria for your writing skills. For sure. Now the question is how much a given person cares about it and that's how the sections help.

I don't think I should judge people based on how they write, but I am going to judge whether I want to write with them based on that. And that is specifically what the different sections are for, though admittedly, I agreed with Vor on the basis that they should be relabeled to something else. But the fact of the matter is that to me, the different sections help me understand what is expected of me and what I can expect of a given roleplay if I join it within that respective section.

It's not discrimination (lol) or elitism. This is a private website, with private roleplays (as in, they are not for public use, so to speak) and so I find the notion of 'elitism' far fetched here. A GM is not required to give you a reason for not allowing you to join, or kicking you out. It's a matter of practicality and also manners that he does, but he's not required.

The same goes for standards IMHO. If you writ lik dis, chances are you're not going to be an advanced writer, and therefore have no place to complain about not being allowed in because of 'elitism'. It's your own fault, no?

Now I agree that the previously very present notion of 'filthy casuals' was very present in the old days but it's not anymore. If anything, casual roleplay, specifically high casual, is closer to what I'd call 'elitist'. But that's not what we're talking about I think.

[MiddleEarthRoze]

@MiddleEarthRoze no, I think you are wrong. Correct grammar and spelling are criteria for being a good writer. You don't see Tolkien writing about how 'Legles stab te ork in te fac wit a arow'. They are criteria for your writing skills. For sure. Now the question is how much a given person cares about it and that's how the sections help.

@Buddha

I never said otherwise? It's common sense to know that even a basic grasp of correct grammar and spelling is necessary just to put out a piece of writing that's readable. I just said that in the Free section - unless the GM states otherwise - nobody particularly cares about such things. Or, at the very least, they don't have to care, there are some in the section who do write correctly. My point was that if that's how they want to write, go for it - I never once mentioned they were "good writers" for doing so.

[Dion]

@MiddleEarthRoze as you said 'You'll also find far more issues in terms of correct grammar and spelling in the free section.' seemed to me like you were implying that they were separate issues, but I see now that you didn't mean that. Either way, point stands.

[Vor]

@MiddleEarthRoze@Buddha

Nah, I agree with you guys. In general, the quality of writing is far better in Advanced than in Free for various reasons. As I said, writing in Advanced requires a significantly bigger time commitment than writing in Free and since writing is a skill, the more you practice the better you get. Maybe the Free section wasn't the best example, but what about Casual vs Advanced? If you take some random threads from Casual and Advanced and plop them into an unnamed section with no tags how easy will it be to determine which is supposed to go where? I'm willing to bet that the distinction between the two won't be easy to make. The line between Casual/Advanced is often blurry and arbitrarily determined by the GM and whatever group of RP'ers they've gathered.

Ultimately, it's down to the people who are participating in the RP. You can have as many advanced tags as you want, but if the RP consists of posts that are 2-3 paragraphs in length then that's not an Advanced RP. (by my standards, of course, which is again something entirely subjective) Likewise, I've seen many RP's in Casual that are superior in scope and quality than ones in Advanced and which shouldn't be dismissed as being "just Casual RP's". People flock to a given tag, be it Free, Casual or Advanced, because they hope to find like-minded players, not because they're experienced or skillful enough to apply. Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that the section one RP's in shouldn't be the only metric by which you measure someone's skill.

This brings me to the point that being a good writer doesn't automatically make you good RP'er, which I believe someone already mentioned in this thread. Technical skill and a big vocabulary aren't enough, RP'ing is a lot more social than pure writing. You need to communicate with others, be constructive, accept criticism, make concessions and so on. I've had the opportunity to meet and chat with some (locally) famous writers and I was surprised how many of them were complete assholes. I'd never RP with such people despite their literary skills. That's the main reason I think having different categories is important to a healthy RP community, which unfortunately has the side of effect of some people clinging to their label in a vain attempt to prove they are better than others. But you know what, life is full of such people, so fuck 'em.

I've veered way off-topic, so I'm stopping here. At the end of the day, writing is a hobby for most of us, so it's supposed to be fun. As long as you're enjoying yourself, what do you care what people are labeling you as?

[Dion]

@Vor I agree. I've always thought that free roleplay was indeed more of a time-allocation thing and advanced was simply put, labeled wrongly. They're not more advanced writers per definition (though, often, they are so in practice). I think the 'differentiation between the levels' here comes also from this time commitment.

Simply put, more time spent writing = faster adaptation of good writer = easier to become a good writer. The advanced roleplay tab doesn't indicate solely that if you write there, you're a good writer. I've read many non-good posts in advanced. I don't read much free roleplay, but in casual, I've seen some absolute masterworks. I think a fair part of that is also the interactivity.

Roleplay isn't solely about writing anyway. It's also about interactivity (for me) and understanding story-telling. You can be Tolkien, if you can't work with other people and/or tell a story in an interesting way no matter how good you write it, I'd be inclined to think you're not as good as you write.

As long as people are having fun, though, I think it's all fine. The discussion is growing old for me and frankly I think both sides to this story are just being stupid. Just let people have their playgrounds, right?

[Dervish]

@Oliver My friend, you've simply run into ageist jackasses that can't wrap their heads around the fact that age is not a definitive guideline for maturity. I have known 15 and 16 year olds who act far more grown up and level headed than some other people in their late 20s, early 30s.

Never dumb your writing down to make other people "happy", anyone telling you that load of garbage is not worth your time and are not representitive of this community at large. I have roleplayed with a lot of people your age, and the way I see it, if someone is actually putting effort in and are capable of putting together solid character ideas and quality posts, who cares how old you are?

I myself started roleplaying at 14, and I was writing with people who were years older than me, some even in college. They never made me feel unwelcome or awful about my age, and I considered them to be my peers and friends; I wanted to improve my writing because of them. If they treated me like some people are treating you, it might have killed my aspirations to roleplay.

My advice is to find a game apart from the problem members, and if you don't have to mention your age, don't. I had one guy who started roleplaying with me when he was 12. He's 16 now and I only just found out his age this month. It wouldn't have changed my perception of him as a writer; he's always been pretty damn good.

So please don't get discouraged. I personally think it's awesome that people are trying to tell a 13 year old to dumb their writing down; it just means you're breaking down stereotypes and are way ahead of the curve for creative writing.

@Vor I tend to disagree that Advanced takes more time than Free; my previous forum didn't have set standards (it was a fandom forum with a small RP corner) and where it used to be roughly casual standards of doing a few short paragraphs per post, one only had to post every few days.

Then the community at large started gravitating towards short 1-2 sentence speed posts, which are the norm I see every time I look at the Free section, and it was literally a commitment of several hours a night of rapid back and forth posting just to stay relevant to the game. For time commitment alone, approvimately 3 hours a night every night vs. Spending an hour or two on a single post every week or two is not a comparison; when I RPed in Free standards, it absolutely demanded more time than writing for Advanced does for me now.

Of course, not all Free RPs are speed posting games, but even quickly now I can see games that have been around for a few weeks or months and have well over 1,000 posts. How long do you think those players are spending a night just writing?

I'm also just going to flat out say that if someone's writing in Free but is capable of at least Casual standards, they're handicapping themselves if they want to actually practice quality writing and improve as a writer. I'm not saying good writers don't exist in Free, although I have seen some posts in Free that honestly belonged in Advanced but I think people fear an elistist stigma from it or something, the whole short form post doesn't give room for descriptive writing and paragraph structure. How much character development can occur when you're conveying thoughts two sentences at a time? It might take 50 posts just to leave a room.

And there's nothing wrong with that and people enjoy that anything goes, quick turn around roleplay style where it's more like a chatroom roleplay than a collaborative storytelling excercise. Everyone has different wants, and that's great. I just wanted to interject that if there's good writers in Free, they're not practicing it, and from personal experience, Free writing has taken up way more of my time than Advanced has just by posting volume alone.

[Celaira]

<Snipped quote by ArenaSnow>

Interesting. I tend to distance myself as much as I can from my characters, and distance other people as much from their characters as I can. If I find someone annoying, I can usually still RP with them unless all their characters are shameless self-inserts.

@Oliver

I find that, while I can distance both myself, and others from their characters, if I have an issue with a person: They can go fuck themselves. I don't dislike someone arbitrarily, there's pretty much always a reason.

As to a previous statement you made about being here to RP and not make friends: That is a very inaccurate assumption. Most people that I've met do actually want to make friends through RP. As was mentioned earlier, RP is a very social thing. You need to be able to interact with, and respect the partners, or group that you have. In most cases, people will treat you the way you treat them, and because this is the internet if you're a jackass, you're likely not to make many permanent RP partners, because people are probably not going to deal with your bullshit.

As a note: I'd like to apologize if this came off as rude, or harsh, just stating my opinion based on my own experiences with this site.

Moving on to your actual question: There are people who will write with you in a very professional manner, and won't go out of their way to talk to you OOC unless it's to talk about plot-related things. They won't judge you based on your attitude, simply on your writing level. However, it should be noted that most adults on this site won't RP with you in terms of Romance due to legal issues involving contacting a minor in that way. It's just not a good idea, overall, to be honest.

Most people would likely give the advice to start in Free because that's how they learned, and just because you're a good academic writer doesn't mean you understand Roleplay, or Roleplay etiquette. You can write, that doesn't mean you can RP. There're rules, and guidelines that people want newbies to understand. A lot of newbies to play-by-post learn these the hard way by being yelled at by their "seniors." I have yet to see that [recently] on the Guild, however.

So, they may not be trying to insult you; they may just want to help you learn in the only way they know how. Unless, of course you've already displayed some sort of decorum and understanding of roleplaying etiquette as a whole, in which case: I don't know why anyone would say that to you.

The emotion thing doesn't make any sense to me, because RP shouldn't stress you out. It should be fun, and a break from reality. If you're getting stressed out by an RP, you're taking it too seriously.

[Masaki Haruna]

@Buddha First of all, I bled to death seeing your Avi and Sig.

@Oliver Age does not matter as most of us pointed here. We can have a 10 year old who is a boss and a 13 year old a subordinate. I like making references; Yukio Okumura and his pals. Bu-chan also gave the best advice, 5 days ago.

It all boils down to maturity.

[Vor]

@Dervish You know, I haven't looked at it from that perspective, mainly because I have very limited experience with Free/Speed post RP's. The closest I've been has been RP in MMO's, which did indeed take up a lot of my nights as a teenager and helped me improve as RP'er, though not necessarily as writer. As for the few Free RP's I've participated in, I guess I was blessed by having some very competent writers involved; what struck me was how concise these people were. As you said, there's not a lot of room for description, so you have to make the most out of those 2-3 sentences to get your point across. Honestly, I find that immensely hard and it's easier (and faster) for me to write out a few paragraphs rather than trying to cram it into a couple of sentences.

But again, this just bring me to the point that it's all very subjective. Trying to pigeon-hole a creative process such as writing seems like a pointless exercise, that's why I'd say the OOC aspect of it is a lot more important, which seems to be the prevalent opinion in this thread.

[Dion]

@Masaki Haruna I don't know what you mean about bleeding to death