Are we expecting too much from newbs?

[Oliver]

Hello, newbie here.
Just some background info on me: I just turned 13 a few weeks ago, and I'm a writing enthusiast. I'm new to play-by-post RP, but have a few months of experience with GURPS, D&D and other tabletop systems.

I've been trying to get into RPing for a few weeks now, and one thing I've noticed pervades this forum is a strong sense of entitlement by seniority. A lot of the users here are several decades older than me and have vastly more experience in the play-by-post world. I've been told no less than four times, all by different people, that I should stick to Free RPs for "a few years" before moving onto more advanced RPs. A lot of people have also told me that I lack the emotional stability to "handle" the social expectations of Casual or Advanced RP.

But the thing is, I'm linguistically advanced enough to handle postlengths of up to five paragraphs, and the grammar standards of Free tends to allow for a level of newbism that is not my own. I get that I'm young and mentally challenged and not always easy to get along with, but it's hard for me to find RPers in my age group who are on the same writing level as me.

So what I'm basically trying to ask is, should I dumb myself down for the sake of not annoying the older and more socially advanced members of RPG, or is there a way for me to RP with older people without getting on their nerves?

[Sugar and Spite]

@Oliver
Okay, first off, let me start by giving you a belated welcome to the Guild.

Second off, ignore these people. I was told the same thing, even though I am a few years older than you. Just because you are not the same age as some people doesn't mean that you can't write just as well -perhaps even better- that these people that are telling you to dumb yourself down. Just like in the real world, you shouldn't change yourself for anyone, under ANY circumstances.

You say yourself that you have experience and can usually write around five paragraphs. Hell, that's more than me. I usually average three-ish. The point IS, if you ask people for advice and they tell you to dumb yourself down, then you should't be taking advice from these people. I understand that the community of RPG is generally just a great place to be, as it is filled with some really cool people, but if they are telling you to stick to the free section strictly because of your age alone, it's ridiculous in my opinion.

The point is, don't dumb yourself down. Do some casual RP's, be yourself, do your own thing.

[ArenaSnow]

A few years is an exaggeration at best, unless you're a particularly slow learner. I'd place you easily capable of the mid casual category. Maybe I'm just lucky, but you seem fine to traverse the casual section. If you can write more, it may be a simple matter of waiting for a GM to come along that handles all levels of OOC capabilities. Dumbing down? Kinda sounds dumb.

The main thing is to not show your worse side on the internet. The veterans here are rather serious, perhaps too serious, and don't take bullshit. I'm not that much different, but I do accommodate, and I'd consider myself decent at doing so. Others aren't so much. Remember that it isn't just your IC abilities that people take into account at higher levels, it's your congeniality and ability to interact OOC as well. Anytime you have issues, kill something in the real world (there's a reason why I go cheap on most things). You can blow Terminal out of the water and still be told to bugger off just because you had the maturity along the lines of of heavy spam forum banter for 20 minutes. I'm not nearly as nice as I look, I just take the less nice somewhere else.

Bottom line, establish yourself in the casual category, prove what you can do, keep the stuff that could hurt relations off the guild, and work up from there. Site seniors aren't Nazis*.

[Shoryu Magami]

While I'd be considered a "junior" by a lot of these people you are referring to (since I'm fairly new to this site), I want to emphasize before I give this post that I'm technically a "senior" to a lot of them, since I've been writing and role-playing longer (admittedly very on and off, and under different circumstances and mediums to a lot of regulars here) than most (not all) of the people I know on this site. I've definitely been storytelling in general significantly longer than anyone I know on here.

I'm probably going to say some things that will hurt people's egos here, but frankly I don't make a habit out of giving a shit what people think anyway; those who take offense to this can get over themselves.

My first bit of advice for you to say is "fuck them" when it comes to the people who are telling you to hold yourself back. Honestly, so long as you can handle the emotional weight of people in the higher tiers potentially criticizing your work or expecting a lot from you (constructive criticism, that is, since if they're just giving criticism because they feel like it then they're assholes who aren't worth role-playing with anyway), then there's no reason for you to stay in the lower tiers if your writing is on a decent level. A person's age, and how long they've been writing, really don't mean shit, and neither does their education or any "qualifications" they might have to flaunt around like prestige.

You're definitely right for assuming that there will be long-standing members on the site who have extremely inflated egos, because, unfortunately, these types of people (long-standing members, big names essentially) are often full of themselves regardless of what type of group you join, and this doesn't just apply to the role-playing world.

I'm a high level player of competitive fighting games, but I've neither competed in tournaments nor am I a known member of some prestigious internet community, so whenever I join a forum looking for partners to have some good matches against I always end up having them talk down to me, which I am never willing to tolerate. In every instance of this happening, the people on those sites who actually were willing to get off their high horses and accept my challenges ended up getting thoroughly annihilated by me, and this includes people who are consistent tournament finalists/winners. This problem you're experiencing exists everywhere, and while it is true that I am older than many of the people who thought I was their "junior", my age is not the important factor to why they lost to me; I put very little time into practicing and subsequently I'm really only playing at my natural base level, without giving any real effort to develop my skills.

I'm obviously not insinuating that they're all like this, since I'm an advanced writer/role-player myself and I consider myself very open to fresh blood that shows talent and determination for this art, but you will find that what you're experiencing is unavoidable no matter where you go; it isn't unique to this site.

The very first role-playing forum I ever joined had (with only a small noteworthy exception I can think of) an incredibly pretentious staff and a lot of lackeys that followed their mentality. They looked down on other members, particularly newcomers, and pretty much just criticized anything they didn't like (it didn't even have anything to do with quality, they were more or less just bashing people for not catering to their personal tastes and preferences) rather immaturely, despite the rules of the original creator of the forum forbidding this sort of behaviour. Most of their time was devoted to bashing people's character profiles (just because they didn't meet their personal preferences) and writing rather painfully embarrassing out of character fan-fiction in the freeform area that they thought was gold. I was already a high level storyteller at this point, who simply had no experience in text-based writing yet, but I was immediately isolated by some of the staff and long-standing members based on personal/preference clashing alone; their actions here are not the mark of a good GM or role-player.

I ended up calling out the staff (and their lackeys) on all of their bullshit, and when I pointed out how they were breaking rules they actually went and removed rules (the creator of the forum was gone by then) so they could ignore my argument. In the end I publically admonished the staff and left that forum, resulting in a domino effect that eventually killed that site completely. Eventually only the decent people were left on the site, so I came back to it, and even ended up on the staff myself, but that's beside the point. This should illustrate to you that this sort of thing is common. The only difference is that site I joined was an entirely advanced role-playing forum, whereas this site has a huge variety of people at different skill levels and experiences. The problem nevertheless exists; a lot of new people are awkward and just want to get involved, and a lot of long-standing people are wankers who need to get over themselves.

I'm not referring to any particular members here (and there's exceptions to a lot of rules), and I don't know who you've dealt with, so this is more of a general observation of communities (and subsequently anyone who takes this personally can get a life). My suggestion to you is to do what you want. If you want to stay casual, do that; if you want to go into advanced, give it a go. Send me a PM sometime if you'd like someone to talk with. I'm not role-playing myself currently and I might not be for a while (for multiple reasons), but I don't want you to think you're alone here. Never dumb yourself down; I sure as hell don't and a lot of people bitch about the walls of text I toss at everyone. Regardless of which forum you choose to write in, give it your all. No one should tell you who you should be; only you decide that, online and offline.

All the best.

[McHaggis]

.

[Sugar and Spite]

@McHaggis

Seriously. That post is beautiful. At first I was like... eh, and then as I read more and more of it.. holy crap. I mean, can this be archived?! I know this probably makes zero sense, and me expressing my love for your post may be weird, but I loved the way you worded this, especially the part about choosing which players to and not to accept as a GM. Personally, I learned a few things myself just by reading your post.

[Oliver]

@McHaggis

Seriously. That post is beautiful. At first I was like... eh, and then as I read more and more of it.. holy crap. I mean, can this be archived?! I know this probably makes zero sense, and me expressing my love for your post may be weird, but I loved the way you worded this, especially the part about choosing which players to and not to accept as a GM. Personally, I learned a few things myself just by reading your post.

@HaleyTheRandom

This. So much this.

Thanks for all your help and advice, guys.

I know I'm not the easiest person to get along with. That's an understatement, actually. I'm a raging angry jackass half the time and I have zero social skills. But at the same time, I have some bragging rights when it comes to writing on an academic level that's generally considered high for my age group. So those kind of conflict with each other. A lot of people have said that while I'm fun to work with IC, I can be a total brat when it comes to dealing with people OOC. And it's not really my fault, either. I mentioned that I have some mental/psychological issues, and I'd rather not delve too deep into it, but yeah. A lot of more advanced RPers are also more advanced socially than me, and don't want to put up with my putzy attitude.

I appreciate that you all took the time to write all this, @McHaggis. I really don't deserve it, honestly.

[SushiJaguar]

It's heartening for one so young to be so self-aware for the age. I know I wasn't.

[Oliver]

Believe me, it's not because I'm self aware. I've had this drilled into me by just about everyone I know. "Oliver, you have a shitty attitude." "Oliver, you have severe anger issues". "Oliver, get control of yourself or you're going to be a burden on society" yada yada yada.

[SushiJaguar]

It's actually very easy to be a burden on society for anyone at all. The only thing you need to do is ignore everything you're advised no matter how sensible.

You'll be fine.

[Dion]

So what I'm basically trying to ask is, should I dumb myself down for the sake of not annoying the older and more socially advanced members of RPG, or is there a way for me to RP with older people without getting on their nerves?

@Oliver

Short answer: No.
Long answer: That depends entirely on your own needs and views. The fact that you're asking this question at all shows me that you really kinda don't wanna dumb yourself down. If you want to be accepted by everyone and everything then yes, you could dumb yourself down. If you want to write stories and roleplay, then no. There's not much else to this question I think.

[Undine]

.

[Oliver]

@Oliver

I'm perfectly happy to keep roleplaying with people I may otherwise dislike if they're respectful to me and everyone else, and I show them the same courtesy. And on the other side of the spectrum, if there's a disrespectful person in my roleplay, they're out. I don't care if they're young or old, I don't care if they're a CEO of a successful company. People will accept you as long as you show respect to the roleplay, to the GM, to the players and the other characters. Writing ability will follow that as a secondary thing.

@Undine

Funny, I keep hearing this from people. I hear this from music directors all the time, that talent comes second to amicability. I hear from teachers that they grade people more harshly on classroom participation than on the actual quality of the student's work.
Why do people care so much about how personally irritating they find a person if their work is good? We came here to RP, not make friends.
I get that I'm only saying this because I'm a jackass and I can't see why other people can't handle it, but still, I think that hard work is undervalued and that people care too much about how much they personally like a person and let that bias whether or not their work is accepted.
Just a mini-rant there, feel free to ignore.

[Undine]

.

[Oliver]

<Snipped quote by Oliver>

For this website in particular, this is because roleplaying is a social activity. You have to collaborate with others to create an interesting story. Hard work, is of course valued extremely highly, but at some point you have to consider that it's not worth it anymore. Roleplaying here is like having a conversation; there's give and take, back and forth, and you have to work with the people around you to establish it. You don't have to keep talking to someone who's being a bully. Roleplaying is first and foremost, a hobby. We are under no obligation to feel bad or miserable while engaging in it. If someone is being disrespectful to me, I have the choice to cut them out of my life; and more often than not, I will because it's not worth it.

I personally don't categorize what we do on this site as playing a role, I call it collaborative storytelling.

If compromising and trying to get along with others is not something someone is willing to do, then writing solo is always another option.

@Undine

Good point.
The thing is, the only way I can really socialize with people is through the internet, and usually in the form of fiction writing and roleplaying because it's easier for people to deal with a character I write than the 'real me', because as aforementioned the real me is a jackass. I have a lot of issues in real life that make interacting with people usually end in them writing me off as a problem for my parents and psychiatrists to deal with.
I get that for most people RP is a hobby, something they do alongside other social activities because they enjoy it. They probably don't have the time or energy to deal with someone who can't stop picking fights. But at least for me, this is how I learn to interact with people. The only reason I ever took up roleplaying was because I thought that the only people who would accept my company were people as nerdy and antisocial as I believed roleplayers to be. But I was pretty wrong, wasn't I? Roleplaying, at least nowadays, seems to be a hobby held by people who are highly socially advanced and are mostly into the creative writing aspect of RP.
And I get that I'm just whining. You can pretty much crunch this whole giant paragraph down into "I'm bad at socializing so I do it over the internet, so just leave me alone and let me be a jackass."
I know that you're not my psychiatrist and you don't need to hear my excuses for being a putz, but the reason I started this topic was to try and get some answers, because more than anything I'm just really fucking confused.
Thanks for all your help, again.

[ArenaSnow]

Funny, I keep hearing this from people. I hear this from music directors all the time, that talent comes second to amicability. I hear from teachers that they grade people more harshly on classroom participation than on the actual quality of the student's work.
Why do people care so much about how personally irritating they find a person if their work is good? We came here to RP, not make friends.

@Oliver

I find that if I cannot OOC interact with someone, I am unable to interact well with them IC. I have shoved otherwise decent looking roleplays and roleplay concepts from any hope of my joining simply because there's one guy who I think is an irrecoverable shit. Just the way I am.

[Oliver]

<Snipped quote by Oliver>

I find that if I cannot OOC interact with someone, I am unable to interact well with them IC. I have shoved otherwise decent looking roleplays and roleplay concepts from any hope of my joining simply because there's one guy who I think is an irrecoverable shit. Just the way I am.

@ArenaSnow

Interesting. I tend to distance myself as much as I can from my characters, and distance other people as much from their characters as I can. If I find someone annoying, I can usually still RP with them unless all their characters are shameless self-inserts.

[ArenaSnow]

<Snipped quote by ArenaSnow>

Interesting. I tend to distance myself as much as I can from my characters, and distance other people as much from their characters as I can. If I find someone annoying, I can usually still RP with them unless all their characters are shameless self-inserts.

@Oliver

Don't get me wrong, when a person checks out I am completely separate from my character and proceed as normal. However, when I meet a certain type of person and that type is fundamentally incompatible with me, I can't do it. *shrug*

[Dion]

@Oliver If you came here expecting the typical 'antisocial nerds that are awkward, cringy and strange' then you're probably 90% correct, but that doesn't mean that they're not people with standards.

Fact of the matter is, whether you are a 20 year alpha-male jock figure with an ego the size of Saturn and a foul mouth to go with it, or if you are a 34 year old woman with 2 kids, a desk job and a lack of social interaction in the real world, or you are some being anywhere in between 'cool' and 'not cool' or you are some person that doesn't really care,

in the end you're going to want to get the same thing out of a social bond as anyone else and that is social gratification. If I am friends with you, that means I am getting something out of you - dark and cruel as that may sound it's true for any one friendship. I am putting time and effort into a friendship, and expect something back. If you pay for my food often, I'll be your friend, because I'm getting something out of you that outweighs the trouble of being your friend. BUT it can also be something as simple as 'being nice to you gives me a good feeling, and you're pleasant to be around' which is also a gain for me, if I felt that way.

Now the question you posed in here originally related to roleplaying and I answered it as such; you shouldn't have to dumb yourself down if you're here solely to roleplay. As I am, I am not here to make friends, get along with people or even 'be nice' to anyone. I am here to roleplay. So, I don't dumb myself down and act as I would in the real world. That means that the few lasting friendships I made on here are built on me being a jackass, among other things, but at least I can say they're good/nice friendships because I don't have to fake anything.

If you're here to make friends and change yourself then yes, you'll have to dumb yourself down OOCly, and possibly try and figure out what it is that makes people like and/or dislike you so you can get a better grip on yourself as a person. But that is something I myself struggle with, that people twice your age struggle with, and that by no means is something easily accomplished. It requires months, years and decades of retrospective insight that you're not going to have at 13 years old. I'm sorry. It's a progress that not everyone can accomplish and a progress that few, and dare I say, nobody, will ever completely master. Self-criticism is extremely hard and even if you can criticize yourself it's even harder to actually change yourself as a person.

But that is not related to roleplaying, or even to this website - that is related to the social standard that people expect and that's not something you should get help with on this site because like mentioned before, I think that a large part of this forum are people that struggle with the real world. Whether that is people who don't feel accepted, people who just aren't social, people who struggle with anxiety, mental disorders or anything.. these people tend to go here, I can agree with you on that. Not everyone here is like that, but large parts are.

Roleplaying is a great way to escape reality, but reality always comes first. Writing a nice story here about how your character slays a dragon isn't going to help you in the long run. Escapism is as dangerous as ignoring your problems.

---

Something entirely unrelated, but something that might help you with 'picking fights' is this; often it doesn't matter what you're saying but how you bring it. If I make a post and it contradicts your earlier post, think to yourself what is the best way to approach me/this other person? Instead of getting angry at them for ignoring you, maybe you could just.. point it out, add a smiley face, be nice about it.

It doesn't matter what you're saying. You could be advocating genocide. It's about the delivery. Always. So when you write a post, OOCly, keep that in mind, and think about how you're delivering a message. If you care about what people think of you, that is.

[Dion]

Also, I want to add, I'm no psychiatrist, so don't quote me on anything. These are just my views. I just think that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong place.