[OOC] The Wheel of Time - Trolloc Wars

[aviendha]

This is in the Mod Rules for this section of the forum, copied and pasted, word for word, with important bits in bold:

GM Autonomy – in most matters pertaining to the thread, the GM has the final say, as it is their plot and we do not wish to interfere with running RP's. Who is in, who is out, calls regarding the storyline and the rules by which RP's run (including how many paragraphs, post rate and order, etc, etc...) who needs to leave and so forth. The only time the moderators tend to step in is when the rules listed above are being violated, otherwise the GM is left to sort it out and deal with their problem players. Of course, the GM can also call us in, but that's usually when someone refuses to leave an RP alone after being asked to leave. Eventually the GM's will have the power to even more closely moderate their thread, but in the meantime, the mods will enforce that power if push comes to shove. If asked to leave by the GM, it's advised you just leave with a little dignity.

[Ezmeralda]

There were definitely higher and lower houses everywhere in the books, but you're right, I suppose it is a different time.

I wasn't implying you were... don't take such offense to things. lol I'm not trying to be defiant. Merely discussing and I'll admit it's been awhile since I read the books...like almost 8 years? I don't remember all the little details. Especially of it's history. I was never big on history in anything. lol

And I don't mean to sound rude, but that's also kind of a terrible way to handle things. I can never respect a "I'm the GM so do as I say." It's the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum because they aren't getting what they want for me...

Anyway, I'm done working on her for now until I'm done with work. I'm open to suggestions if you have any ideas for her/what you want me to do.

[aviendha]

@Ezmeralda I'm not saying "I'm the GM so do as I say.", I'm saying "I'm the GM, so please respect that, the rules of this forum, and please respect me and my decisions when I explain the history of the world that we're working in, and do not constantly say that I am wrong or otherwise mistaken when I provide ample evidence and explanation to prove my point."

If you don't agree with my assessments as GM, then you don't need to be in the RP, it's that simple. I'm happy and willing to work within the predefined constraints of the world, I can be really flexible. Just, don't argue when I've already said no, unless you've got a very, very compelling argument, backed by reputable sources (Jordan himself or the big 3).

[aviendha]

Alrighty guys, for clarification:

• I am always willing to discuss things.
• I am always willing to compromise.
• I am always willing to provide explanations.
• I am always willing to work out ideas.
• UNLESS I have already said no. If I have said no, that is final.

In addition:

• I am a hardass when it comes to character creation.
• I am also a hardass when it comes to worldbuilding.
• However, during the actual RP, anything can happen. I challenge you to be as ridiculous as possible within the preset constraints of the characters you've created and the world we're writing in. Examples:
  
  • If someone had their character defeat hundreds of Trollocs in a blast of the One Power, we'd know their strength level, and we'd know if drawing that much of the One Power in would burn them out, or kill them, or if it would be something that they could handle.
  • Someone could do something super ridiculous and call in a Raken from seemingly nowhere, cool. I'll then have an army of Seanchan appear, to make it make sense.
  • You want to go to Tel'aran'rhiod? Go for it. We'll figure out the consequences as we go.
• Anything can happen once we've established character and setting.
• I encourage ridiculous stuff, because it challenges me as a GM.

[Tangletail]

To be fair about the trollocs, one-four is a match for an average man on his toes. A well trained, disciplined, and clever man could probably take on more... provided he's not overwhelmed.... meaning completely surrounded and getting attacked at all directions at overlapping frequencies, Or cornered, or has an endless supply charging him through a poorly defended doorway.

What is an overlapping frequency? Look at Assassin's Creed, and notice how the enemy constant takes turns attacking you. It's definitely not that.

[aviendha]

@Tangletail I mean, a nerdy kid who had never held a sword in his life was able to take down a Trolloc, so I'm sure a prepared fighter could do the same. It's up to you guys to determine your characters' strengths and abilities, and to create equivalent weaknesses.

(I watched FMA for the first time a few months back, so I've been incorporating the whole equivalent exchange thing into everything.)

[Sanctus Spooki]

I feel this is rapidly spiraling out of control.

Also randomly inserting a Alchemical law from a completely unrelated universe seems rather odd.

And a nerdy kid who grew up in a much different time, I consider myself to be pretty fit, Im not some athlete by any standards, but I am probably much healthier than the average medieval farm boy. Saying that, I would be pretty nervous to get in a fight with one.

[Tangletail]

I feel this is rapidly spiraling out of control.

Also randomly inserting a Alchemical law from a completely unrelated universe seems rather odd.

And a nerdy kid who grew up in a much different time, I consider myself to be pretty fit, Im not some athlete by any standards, but I am probably much healthier than the average medieval farm boy. Saying that, I would be pretty nervous to get in a fight with one.

@Sanctus Spooki

I think she means the Achilles heal. Someone who's incredibly powerful will have a detrimental and nearly ridiculous weakness. There's also the canon threat of burnouts where you can permanently lock yourself out of channeling for good.

Annnnd there is the Dumb Heroic death trope, where someone in their hubris or biggotry believe that they can overcome terrible odds by running their forehead into it... instead of taking a step back to notice they are standing in front of the equivalent of a Calvary charged by big furry men with tree trunks for clubs, running as fast as horses, and is a moving line that goes all the way to the mountains.

I've seen those players, by the way @_@;

[Sanctus Spooki]

I understand that, and the reasoning behind it, applying it to everything still seems odd, its like saying "Ok your character is x so must be y" its deliberately limiting, it also extends the LoEE far beyond it's actual meaning and perverts it into something it is not.

[Tangletail]

I understand that, and the reasoning behind it, applying it to everything still seems odd, its like saying "Ok your character is x so must be y" its deliberately limiting, it also extends the LoEE far beyond it's actual meaning and perverts it into something it is not.

@Sanctus Spooki

I think it's to compensate for the fact that this RP might wind up having two players actually fight each other to the death, till injury, or till a point of strategic victory.

It's honestly not fun when when you're rolling with a more mundane character that's been through hell and back, and has been knocked around for the past few months. To fight someone who's bordering the lines of a god by simply swipping his weapon through the air, and ignoring any form of armor like butter. Leather and Quilted armors are harder to get through than people think. Yet swords tend to treat chainmail like a joke.

[aviendha]

@Sanctus Spooki Lol, I'm not "randomly inserting a Alchemical law from a completely unrelated universe". I'm using a principle from a popular franchise to better explain how to create a character. I.E. If your character has a ton of strengths and is very powerful, they must also have a massive weakness/set of weaknesses; if they're average, then they don't need any great weaknesses or anything; if they're really weak, they can also have a significant strength. Previously, I've had to give long winded reasons for this- but because of FMA, I can usually just toss out the term 'equivalent exchange' and it makes sense.

As for fighting Trollocs, I have Lupus, and I'm often in a wheelchair or at best using a cane, but I still think I could take down a Trolloc or two. Come at me.

@Tangletail Thanks for defending me. And yes, that's exactly what I mean. :)

Also, as a blacksmith- leather is far superior to chainmail for a lot of things. Easily. It's so much more practical and effective.

[Tangletail]

Superior in forms of practicality :P but I wouldn't say protection. leather is a bitch to cut with a normal sword motion, but it's doable. If it's not thick or hardened then you can stab through it easily. Gamberson would be better than Leather. But Mail, you're not cutting mail XD. You can still stab through it... but it's really... really hard. And you'd need a sword designed for that like the estoc to do it easily. Which is why you invert the sword and hammer on em.

EDIT

To make Chain Mail more annoying... it's usually augmented with a Gamberson anyways :P.

[aviendha]

@Tangletail The proper thing to do is to wear a gambeson of sorts beneath leather armor. That way, you have the cushion of the gambeson and the tactile proficiency of the leather. A buddy of mine who makes leather armor (I can't stand the smell) and I meet up sometimes, and fight- it's quite fun, because we can hammer away on each other to no end and end up with just a couple of bruises. Unless you specifically aim for an uncovered area of the body, or get really, really lucky, leather armor can withstand enough that you'll just be sore for a week.

Chainmail, on the other hand, is relatively weak in comparison to the toughness and resilience of leather.

[Sanctus Spooki]

@Sanctus Spooki Lol, I'm not "randomly inserting a Alchemical law from a completely unrelated universe". I'm using a principle from a popular franchise to better explain how to create a character. I.E. If your character has a ton of strengths and is very powerful, they must also have a massive weakness/set of weaknesses; if they're average, then they don't need any great weaknesses or anything; if they're really weak, they can also have a significant strength. Previously, I've had to give long winded reasons for this- but because of FMA, I can usually just toss out the term 'equivalent exchange' and it makes sense.

As for fighting Trollocs, I have Lupus, and I'm often in a wheelchair or at best using a cane, but I still think I could take down a Trolloc or two. Come at me.

@Tangletail Thanks for defending me. And yes, that's exactly what I mean. :)

@aviendha

Okay, now you are just sounding silly, In regards to the wheelchair/lupus thing, you have my sympathy, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. You take issue with a farm boy defeating a single Trolloc, but think you could beat one? They do have intelligence, diminished but it is present. At best you might kill one through a surprise, after which you are dead. Not trying to be rude, but be realistic, they are superior in strength speed agility range durability, and are actually skilled warriors. Aside from intelligence (I'd rank them at a 60-80 on the IQ scale), they posess everything a warrior needs to be effective.

I'm not "randomly inserting a Alchemical law from a completely unrelated universe". I'm using a principle from a popular franchise to better explain how to create a character.

So you are inserting this principle, and using it improperly too boot.

The LoEE exchange is not applicable to Characters, it is purely the actual scientific law that energy can not be destroyed or created, only changed, just phrased beautifully. Look at the big muscley dude. What problems does he actually have? He's a talented alchemist (Which you need to be smart for) A genetic mutant on the scale of Schwarznegger, a talented artist, I can't think of any real flaws... unless him being bald is that great of a detraction from him.

[aviendha]

@Sanctus Spooki Lol, I don't take any issue whatsoever with a farm boy defeating a Trolloc. That's my point. Canonically it happened, so it makes sense. I also asked Harriet a little while back if she thought I could take down a Trolloc, and she said yes, so I'm not going to argue with her, lmao.

I am using the principle of equivalent exchange to explain how to create characters... I'm not inserting something from the universe of FMA into the universe of WoT... I'm using it to communicate my reasons why I have certain requirements for characters... I'm using it in a metaphorical capacity so that it's easy to understand...

My reasons are exactly what @Tangletail described above:

I think she means the Achilles heal. Someone who's incredibly powerful will have a detrimental and nearly ridiculous weakness. There's also the canon threat of burnouts where you can permanently lock yourself out of channeling for good.

Annnnd there is the Dumb Heroic death trope, where someone in their hubris or biggotry believe that they can overcome terrible odds by running their forehead into it... instead of taking a step back to notice they are standing in front of the equivalent of a Calvary charged by big furry men with tree trunks for clubs, running as fast as horses, and is a moving line that goes all the way to the mountains.

I've seen those players, by the way @_@;

I think it's to compensate for the fact that this RP might wind up having two players actually fight each other to the death, till injury, or till a point of strategic victory.

It's honestly not fun when when you're rolling with a more mundane character that's been through hell and back, and has been knocked around for the past few months. To fight someone who's bordering the lines of a god by simply swipping his weapon through the air, and ignoring any form of armor like butter. Leather and Quilted armors are harder to get through than people think. Yet swords tend to treat chainmail like a joke.

EDIT: Another example of equivalent exchange in my life: My students, little toddlers mostly, know that in their lessons, they will only learn a lot if they practiced a lot- and if they don't practice, they won't learn anything.

[Tangletail]

<Snipped quote by aviendha>

Okay, now you are just sounding silly, In regards to the wheelchair/lupus thing, you have my sympathy, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. You take issue with a farm boy defeating a single Trolloc, but think you could beat one? They do have intelligence, diminished but it is present. At best you might kill one through a surprise, after which you are dead. Not trying to be rude, but be realistic, they are superior in strength speed agility range durability, and are actually skilled warriors. Aside from intelligence (I'd rank them at a 60-80 on the IQ scale), they posess everything a warrior needs to be effective.

I'm not "randomly inserting a Alchemical law from a completely unrelated universe". I'm using a principle from a popular franchise to better explain how to create a character.

So you are inserting this principle, and using it improperly too boot.

The LoEE exchange is not applicable to Characters, it is purely the actual scientific law that energy can not be destroyed or created, only changed, just phrased beautifully. Look at the big muscley dude. What problems does he actually have? He's a talented alchemist (Which you need to be smart for) A genetic mutant on the scale of Schwarznegger, a talented artist, I can't think of any real flaws... unless him being bald is that great of a detraction from him.

@Sanctus Spooki

I've had this discussion with her before X3. I personally told her that the trollocs were jokes if Humans did not actually fight for the darkside in this war.

The Trollocs are COWARDS. On a one on one fight against a human with one arm, and a healthy trolloc, if the Trolloc has nothing it fears, then it will be scared of the human for even trying to put up a fight.

There's even times when there are things more terrifying for them than those who control em XD. Like water, because they can't swim. Dogs, for reasons unknown. Channeling, for obvious reasons.

And they are incredibly stupid. They will fall for the same trick a number of times.

A farm boy can win a one on one duel with a trolloc XD.

[aviendha]

@Sanctus Spooki AND AS FOR ARMSTRONG'S WEAKNESSES: oh boy.

PRIDE. Armstrong has a sense of personal pride and a need to be incredible in every aspect of his life. This is both personally induced, as he has spent his life trying to become the perfect specimen of man, and created by his familial environment. There is this massive, overabundance of expectations from his family; their history, and their abilities, that he feels he must match. There are just so many things he must uphold and achieve. Success is not enough for him, to satisfy his pride, to maintain his pride. He is weak through the fact of his immense sense of dignity, honor, arrogance, vanity, self esteem, self importance, what have you.

FAMILY. Now let's talk about his family- except let's not, because I don't want to reveal spoilers. But suffice it to say that he puts up with a lot of shit from his family. Too much. It's a strain on his personal and professional life. And because of his strong relationship with them, they are an immense weakness of his.

ROMANTIC. This is, in my opinion, the saddest weakness of all. Armstrong is an incredible romantic, and he's really sweet, and he wants to have this beautiful life, but he is alone. Nobody wants to be with him, let alone in a romantic capacity. He has no lifelong companion. He is completely without the love he so desperately wants. And the thing is, he knows this. He is not blessed with ignorance. The poor dear is aware of the fact that though he has all of these hopes and dreams, they won't be fulfilled. He will likely die alone. And it haunts him.

@Tangletail Once again, thank you, friend. :)

[Sanctus Spooki]

Alright give me a second, I need to respond to this all. (There will probably be further issues to address by the time I finish)

Your way of explaining how to create characters is entirely flawed, your reason for them requiring flaws is silly. I would say you enjoy that view from your condition. (Yes this is rather presumptuous of me.) A smart character is not necessarily a weak one. A strong one is not dumb. You create a character with depth, not by saying they must fit your preconceived notions of how people are gifted/cursed. And not by demanding they all have blatant weaknesses.

If two characters engage in a fight to the death, it is up to the GM to moderate between the two if they cannot reach an agreement between themselves. Fairly. Much as you said it is ridiculous to believe a farm boy can kill a Trolloc, if a mundane character ends up in a situation where they fight someone completely out of their league, yes they should die, so long as there is agreement between the players, or if it seems entirely unavoidable, as you said in your opening post: There is no plot armor. If your character suffering bugs you, well clearly you should not participate in a RP that puts your character at risk.

If someone chooses to follow the dumb heroic death trope, that is fully their choice, and the GM's choice to punish it.

You did take issue with the farm boy. Rand has never struck me as a 'Nerdy kid', I welcome you to explain how he is. You phrased it the way you did for a specific reason. Canonically, Moraine, Siun Sanche, Nynaeve, Egwene Elayne and many others all attained the shawl well before turning 100, for Ezmeralda's character of a similar power to Nynaeve, it is fully reasonable that she would follow a similar progression. the woman who had been a novice for 40 years was the exception to the norm. You have repeatedly cherry picked statements and facts, while substituting your own interpretations of the WoT lore.

Your evidence to the law of equivalent exchange in real life in regards to actual peoples character traits is laughable (Do you really think people work this way?), an equal amount of effort doesn't equate an equal gain in skill, if you don't understand why, I'm done with this conversation. This discussion is turning ridiculous.

yep there was more.... second post incoming

[Sanctus Spooki]

Pride: YEs Armstrong is proud, and for good reason, in no way is this ever a failing, and he demonstrates humility many times. He's just a loud bastard about it. Which grates on some people, so perhaps his only problem is an overly grand personality.

We already know about his family, you didn't expand on it because you are fully aware how tenuous a position this is already. Bruce Wayne's weakness is his family. Armstrong has a largely typical relationship with his family. He's afraid of his sister because she's his sister, even if he could beat her, he never would. Thats the type of person he is. If anything this is a further golden point to Armstrong, his strong family values.

Romantic: Okay this is once again laughable. Being a romantic is not a flaw.

@Tangletail The fact that Aviendha is unable to answer any of these points on her own further emphasizes my point that she really doesn't know what she's doing, her professed knowledge of the WoT is a joke, propped up by the claim to live close by to the widow of a dead man. Almost all of her points have been fallacious and she repeatedly contradicts herself throughout the thread. She isn't even able to apologize for being an ass, without being an ass. This is her thread though, so I'll vacate the thread. Enjoy the RP, and I honestly hope it does better than I'm expecting.

[Ezmeralda]

My reason for her being so young was because she was brought to the tower pretty young and 20 years is a long time, if you behave and are on top of things it should be possible, since the only requirements are learning your weaves and braving the trials through Novice to Aes Seda. Age wasn't really a factor. Her power also isn't nearly as strong as Nyneave's. She is weaker than Egwene and Elayne. Her power level istelf wasn't the issue.