Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[Penny]

So we are safe so long as McCain can fight off cancer. Are we sure this isn't a screen play of some sort?

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

I do hope with the coming election cycle that there is an end put to this. Too many resources and too much time wasted on a dysfunctional version of health care and series of mediocre repeal attempts. This last effort was put together in a couple of weeks on short notice; not what I call a good foot to get out on. Government healthcare hasn't improved much either to show for the other side and I have yet to hear from anyone who has had benefit from the changes.

Here is to hoping for a full repeal in due time.

[Polymorpheus]

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[Penny]

@Penny McCain realizes that he can get medical treatment funded by taxpayers, because he's a Senator. It'd be hypocritical if he accepted that service, but denied healthcare to millions of people that pay for his.

Also, I think he's just enjoying ramming his middle finger up Trump's ass while he still can.

@catchamber

Good for him! I'm not in general a huge fan of McCain but I'm glad that he is standing firm on this issue. Now if we could just convince him to go for some sort of universal healthcare...

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

And, pray tell, why would universal healthcare be a good thing and not a burden to the public? Single-payer and government health care in general is terrible. I am not sure if you have ever been subject to it, but there is nothing like being told your problem "Is not significant enough to further investigate. If it happens again, tell us and we will reopen your case after reviewing your new claim." after you were already given the run around and went through numerous referrals over the course of months.

Why does this sound like a positive when I could say, go with the private sector see any doctor I more or less wish and under my own volition provided I am covered? An addition to this is, why am I being obligated to fund other people's use of the system? And if it is so great, why are so many opting to forgo the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and just pay the fine?

I see no positive to allowing the federal government another hand in my business.

I can sympathize and support the Department of Veterans Affairs - because they have a valid reason to continue receiving support - but anyone and everyone? Do enlighten me, @Penny.

[POOHEAD189]

I feel like this is me tossing a powder keg because this is a mostly conservative (not to mention male) chat. But new topic.

[Polymorpheus]

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[Penny]

I've worked in two different countries with universal healthcare systems. Neither of them were perfect but both of them had significant advantages over the American system. This is particularly true in the provision of pre-critical preventative care. Again, not perfect, but better.

[mdk]

I've worked in two different countries with universal healthcare systems. Neither of them were perfect but both of them had significant advantages over the American system. This is particularly true in the provision of pre-critical preventative care. Again, not perfect, but better.

@Penny

I'm willing to bet they were also smaller.

The US is very large and very diverse (meaning geopolitically -- population distribution, regional income, infrastructure, etc). The policies that work in New York are different than the policies that work in New Mexico. I don't think universal healthcare will work at the federal level in the US, and I base that on my experiences with TriCare and the VA system. I think that most, if not all, of the patients operating in either or both of those federal healthcare systems will back me up on that.

Put simply -- this is not a conversation worth having in the US until the federal government can demonstrate competency with the VA. Until that happens, universal healthcare is delusional.

[Dolerman]

>says he's not back
>goes to look across 30 pages for out of context quotes to then make a comment with one gif

@POOHEAD189

[Penny]

<Snipped quote by Penny>

I'm willing to bet they were also smaller.

@mdk

Yes. Also all other countries are completely homogeneous with zero regional diversity. It is known.

The US is very large and very diverse (meaning geopolitically -- population distribution, regional income, infrastructure, etc). The policies that work in New York are different than the policies that work in New Mexico. I don't think universal healthcare will work at the federal level in the US, and I base that on my experiences with TriCare and the VA system. I think that most, if not all, of the patients operating in either or both of those federal healthcare systems will back me up on that.

Put simply -- this is not a conversation worth having in the US until the federal government can demonstrate competency with the VA. Until that happens, universal healthcare is delusional.

@mdk

I've heard very little good about the VA. I looked into working for them once but turns out I'm a filthy foreigner. Are you in favor of dissolving it completely?

[Kratesis]

<Snipped quote by mdk>

Yes. Also all other countries are completely homogeneous with zero regional diversity. It is known.

@Penny

That's not what he said.

[Penny]

@Kratesis

My point being that all countries with universal healthcare systems face these challenges to a greater or lesser extent. I know the current administration doesn't exactly inspire confidence but you can do it! I believe in you USA! The idea that the greatest superpower in the history of the world cant confront the horrors of regional diversity in order to provide healthcare to its citizens is ludicrous.

[POOHEAD189]

I'm not really very familiar with healthcare as a topic, other than I do believe that free or very cheap healthcare is a very humane way to govern.

I will say that back when I was dating my ex (who was British) she would complain to me about how bad her doctors were, and how while the government provided some money for her in other areas, it was never nearly enough and I think they weren't consistent with what they promised? I remember us comparing our services, and while I had to pay for my doctors boatloads of cash, I never had a problem with my physician. While hers was free, they were also either incompetent or sub par.

I do think people forget just how giant America is, which will blow out of proportion all of its problems like healthcare, gun violence, etc. However, while I don't think full socialism is a good thing, I do think easy access healthcare with good incentives for the doctors is a no brainer 'good.'

[Kratesis]

@Kratesis

My point being that all countries with universal healthcare systems face these challenges to a greater or lesser extent. I know the current administration doesn't exactly inspire confidence but you can do it! I believe in you USA! The idea that the greatest superpower in the history of the world cant confront the horrors of regional diversity in order to provide healthcare to its citizens is ludicrous.

@Penny

By that logic there is no difference between Somalia and Sweden because both countries face the challenges of murders and homelessness to a lesser or greater degrees.

[Penny]

The quality of care in America is second to none assuming you can get it without being literally bankrupted.

The problems are with the insurance system, the lack of a government backstop and the impact it has on pre-critical care. If you show up at my ER we will treat you regardless of insurance, but half the time the time you wouldn't be there if you had regular access to a GP. Similarly you aren't likely to engage in necessary follow up therapy if doing so will literally bankrupt you and so your condition worsens until you end up back in the ER. At that point we treat your critical issues and send you back out to repeat the cycle again. In the mean time all that care is basically done for free, which means to make ends meet we have to essentially overcharge people with private insurance, which leads to raised premiums which leads to less companies offering quality (or any) insurance, which leads to more uninsured people showing up at the ER, which starts the whole cycle again.

[Penny]

<Snipped quote by Penny>

By that logic there is no difference between Somalia and Sweden because both countries face the challenges of murders and homelessness to a lesser or greater degrees.

@Kratesis

Is America Somalia in this analogy? Every country faces those challenges, as you say, to greater and lesser degrees. is America really so much less able to deal with them then Australia, or Canada, or France, or Sweden, or Denmark, or Germany, or ......

I'm not suggesting that America dosen't face challenges in implementing some version of universal healthcare, just that I don't think that they are as insuperable as people claim.

[POOHEAD189]

The quality of care in America is second to none assuming you can get it without being literally bankrupted.

The problems are with the insurance system, the lack of a government backstop and the impact it has on pre-critical care. If you show up at my ER we will treat you regardless of insurance, but half the time the time you wouldn't be there if you had regular access to a GP. Similarly you aren't likely to engage in necessary follow up therapy if doing so will literally bankrupt you and so your condition worsens until you end up back in the ER. At that point we treat your critical issues and send you back out to repeat the cycle again. In the mean time all that care is basically done for free, which means to make ends meet we have to essentially overcharge people with private insurance, which leads to raised premiums which leads to less companies offering quality (or any) insurance, which leads to more uninsured people showing up at the ER, which starts the whole cycle again.

@Penny

I've heard it from the patient's side but not much by the physician's side. Thanks for the clearing that up^^

I did know that people would be accepted regardless, but I'd also heard various things like a simple Ambulance ride could cost thousands of dollars, etc. Plus if I didn't have my Fedex insurance (which is quite good) my meds and appointments would cost an arm and a leg.

[Penny]

Also if you have an esoteric or undiagnosed illness, come to America. Put in one call to Mass general and the whole country swings into action!

[Kratesis]

<Snipped quote by Kratesis>

Is America Somalia in this analogy? Every country faces those challenges, as you say, to greater and lesser degrees. is America really so much less able to deal with them then Australia, or Canada, or France, or Sweden, or Denmark, or Germany, or ......

@Penny

America faces difficulties that Australia, Canada, France, Sweden, Denmark and Germany do not face. The combined population of those countries (excluding America) is 225.62 million. The population of America is 323.1 million. Trying to design a plan for America is like trying to design a plan for Australia, Canada, France, Sweden, Denmark and Germany + another country with another 97.48 million people. And that doesn't begin to address the challenges of geography and diversity.

MDK has alluded to one possible solution which is to do exactly like Australia, Canada, France, Sweden, Denmark and Germany and have different plans for different areas with their own challenges, resources and values rather than trying to create one super-plan that addresses every region successfully.

This is essentially what the European Union does but using states instead of national governments.

I'm not suggesting that America dosen't face challenges in implementing some version of universal healthcare, just that I don't think that they are as insuperable as people claim.

That isn't what your first post implied.