Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[mdk]

You can still enjoy the fascinating discussion of how people are doing Iron Age cult practice wrong.

@Penny

But enough about Sweden's migrant policy.

[Polymorpheus]

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[Andreyich]

Which part if I may ask? The part where I don't believe in a separate immortal soul or something else?

Yes, along with your weird concept of resurrection.

Wait, so are you trying to say here that God, has forgiven everybody and will therefore save everybody despite whatever choices or decisions they make? Even if they outright reject God and want nothing to do with him?

People have free choice but they make the right one eventually. Upon death it may take a long time but all will eventually come into communion with him. Hell is the temporary state of being out of touch and communion with God. For those who want nothing to do with him and commit heinous acts like Hitler, Lenin, etc. this may take longer but all will eventually see the light.

So all of humanity has no choice in the matter but to be forced to follow God and live forever no matter what they do in the here and now?

No, they have a choice; be in or out of communion with HIS holiness. Having complete erasure of your consciousness is perhaps the most evil thing a deity could do.

Way to make freedom of choice completely irrelevant and pointless, if that were the case then everyone is free to do whatever they want at whatever price with no consequences except for what happens to them on this Earth.

Again, wrong. It will take longer to see your material misgivings, then to subsequently repent and enter communion with his Holiness. In the material world people have many boundaries and disadvantages from person to person, it's not hard to be pious when you have all the world at your disposal, while it is when you are born to a crack whore with an uncle that sometiems moseys over to rape you.

In your opinion. Though I will say my opinions are very different from the mainstream Christian to be sure, but I still consider myself a Christian because I follow Christ.

Muslims, the Bah'ai, and some Hindu off-shoot groups follow Christ. Doesn't make them Christian.

You can still enjoy the fascinating discussion of how people are doing Iron Age cult practice wrong.

You're awfully stupid with nothing of worth to contribute, but God will forgive you.

But enough about Sweden's migrant policy.

man don't you remember brown people religion is alright

[Polymorpheus]

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[Penny]

You're awfully stupid with nothing of worth to contribute, but God will forgive you.

@Andreyich

Please, tell me more of this God of which you speak!

[IceHeart]

@Andreyich Soooo...you basically believe in Purgatory then?

Muslims, the Bah'ai, and some Hindu off-shoot groups follow Christ. Doesn't make them Christian.

@Andreyich

I don't really think you can use those as examples since, as far as I know, none of them believe Christ is the Son of God who sacrificed himself to save us all from our sins. Pretty sure they just consider him to be a very wise teacher. Though I could be wrong.

[Andreyich]

Soooo...you basically believe in Purgatory then?

No, it's not purgation. Purgation presumes hell is eternal, by God's mercy hell is not, what I speak of is hell.

I don't really think you can use those as examples since, as far as I know, none of them believe Christ is the Son of God who sacrificed himself to save us all from our sins. Pretty sure they just consider him to be a very wise teacher. Though I could be wrong.

Okay, I can subtract the Muslims but it stands for Bah'ai, Hindus, and Unitarians.

[Heat]

[POOHEAD189]

You can still enjoy the fascinating discussion of how people are doing Iron Age cult practice wrong.

@Penny

That actually sounds pretty metal. I see you're doing the lord's work.

@Heat I see someone didn't read the source material. On my desk by Wednesday!

[Xandrya]

My issue with god could be perfectly summed up in this picture. I mean, it's like she took the words right out of my mouth.

[SleepingSilence]

Claiming all suicide is bad is just willfully ignorant.

@Odin

There's some good suicide? How exactly does one define that? It's literally dying from lack of any hope. <.< Spin that into a positive. Because everything you said, didn't make that case. I already made things debunking those ideas presented. So I won't repeat myself.

“Pain Can Be Alleviated” Argument

In medicine, we talk much these days about a “good death,” not necessarily one that is completely free of suffering, but a dying process in which we are attendant to pain and symptom management, optimize clear decision making, and affirm the whole person in as dignified a manner as possible. Importantly, this can often be effectively accomplished through incorporation of palliative care services. Palliative care is a healing act adjusted to the good possible even in the face of the realities of an incurable illness. Cure may be futile but care is never futile (Pellegrino 2001). With appropriate utilization of palliative care, far fewer patients would be driven by fear to request that physicians actively end their lives via PAS/E.

Proponents of assisted suicide and euthanasia posit the scenario of uncontrollable pain as a straw man for advancing their cause. Such proponents apparently view death as the ultimate analgesic. In fact, in medical practice today, pain relief is almost always possible given modern therapeutics in analgesia and the medical specialty of pain management. Since pain can be alleviated, there is no basis to assert a need for PAS because of intractable pain. This may explain in part why many requests for PAS are no longer related to or initiated because of intolerable pain, but because of fear of such intolerable pain. Further, closely related to a patient's fear of intolerable pain, and sometimes associated with a patient's fear of being abandoned (Coyle 2004), is a patient's request for PAS because of not wanting to burden others. This too poses a curious contradiction, for on the one hand there is not wanting to be a burden on a loved one, and on the other hand a fear of being alone and abandoned. Such a contradiction, once considered and coupled with the fact that pain can be addressed successfully through optimal palliative care implementation, enhances the power of this argument against PAS/E.

The Oregon law was enacted on the basis of intolerable pain — no one should be forced to endure pain that is uncontrollable and unendurable. Most of us can sympathize with that, but the law is not restricted to pain, and it is not pain that is the top reason people choose physician-assisted suicide in Oregon. The state's “Death with Dignity Act Annual Report” for 2014 shows that the top reason is “losing autonomy” (Oregon Public Health Division 2015, 5). Concern about pain was not even the second or third reason: “Less able to engage in activities making life enjoyable” and “Loss of dignity.” It was ranked sixth out of seven, above only financial concerns, and included not only “inadequate pain control,” but also “concern about it.” These patients were not necessarily in uncontrollable pain themselves, however they were concerned about it (as are we all). But even that concern did not rank high on their list of reasons that they wanted to commit suicide. Even if the line drawn is unbearable pain, how can that be restricted to only physical pain? Who can judge that mental anguish is not unbearable pain? Or that economic distress (or anything else that causes anguish) is not unbearable pain?

I feel like you attempted to put in a contrary opinion, but failed to make a comprehensible case. What you MEANT was, "claiming all suicide isn't viable (meaning something that wouldn't necessarily be a pleasant or good choice, but something that solves a problem.) insert thing here" That's still wrong, as I pointed out. Unless like Penny, you love the idea of rising suicide rates among demographics.

[SleepingSilence]

Now I'm saying this because yes, suicide does hurt many other people. Friends and family.

Now does that mean I'm glad he died? Not at all.

But sometimes a suicide doesn't necessarily bring a negative impact to a group of people or a community.

@POOHEAD189

I'm just pointing out these are contradictory statements...but you did admit to not reading everything presented. So I will say quickly that, also as someone who was suicidal at a time in his life. I understand the idea of not demonizing those who kill themselves and maybe trying to sympathize by wrapping your head around why someone may go to such extreme lengths, you don't want to necessarily speak ill of the dead. But...

But the fact of the matter is, it DOES have negative impact on society, even people who never knew you before. It's not like normal death and it isn't right to commit suicide under any circumstances. My condolences.

(To not just repeat all of what I already posted. I would strong recommend reading those links too.)

sosmadison.com/coping-after-a-suicide…

theconnectprogram.org/people-who-have…

xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/it-happe…

[Polymorpheus]

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[SleepingSilence]

Oh, we're getting into intelligent discourse about religion are we?



Glad I could add my equally useful contribution.

[Andreyich]

My issue with god could be perfectly summed up in this picture. I mean, it's like she took the words right out of my mouth.

@Xandrya

<Snipped quote by Xandrya>
While she raises a good point, there's always another option. Maybe God doesn't give a shit. Maybe God looks at us the same way we look at microbes or domesticated animals. Maybe the Big Bang lagged God's computer so hard, they have no idea that any of this shit is happening, and they're floating around shouting profanities at the infinite void while they wait for the customer support hotline to take them off hold.

Not that I'd worship God, no matter what their reasoning is. After all, why the hell would a being capable of creating the universe want or need a mere primate on a hypersonic lavaball to shower it with praises?

@catchamber

Yeah no that's stupid and wrong, and an immature "objection." This is a simple variation of the Epicurean Paradox issue that is consistently raised to theists as if it's some sort of "aha, gotcha!" style of riposte. However, if people who posted such shit bothered to pull their heads out of their asses for a few moments they'd realize it's already been resolved several times dozens of times across many cultures and eras.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

tl;dr "tracie harris" actually gave a damn about anything but being an annoying edgelord she'd know she's raising a rather stupid non-argument. Although perhaps it wasn't wise to share rather basic information since people who say such shit need this bubble of self-righteousness to exist.

[Burning Kitty]

@Xandrya

Same can be said for the justice system.

Let's use Bob McRapist as an example.
Bob rapes a person.
Bob gets caught.
Bob is convicted.
Bob serves his time.
Bob gets out.
Bob eventually rapes again.

Since justice is not omnipotent and whatever omni word. It has to wait until after the first victim has suffered. Therefore the people in charge of justice knowing that most violent criminals do no repent while incarcerated and incarceration is not really designed to rehabilitate then going Tracie McBitchFace's "logic" the justice system is a failure because not enough criminals are executed.

[Xandrya]

People claim god is righteous and omnipotent. I guess I'm a fucking idiot because my definition of what's right and wrong goes against what's preached all the time: "It's all part of his plan, trust in him and he won't fail you," etc. I'm not okay with these things happening, even though people pray against it. But somehow, Suzie prayed hard enough and x amount of times so she could get an "A" instead of a "B" on her final, and it happened. But fuck the millions of others suffering, right?

I'm not here to change anyone's mind, just here to show why I think such delusion is bullshit.

Also, Bob could do all those things and more, but the second he makes that prayer, he's golden. No hell for him.

[Mistiel]

I believe, correct me if I am wrong, is that part of the issue being taken with assisted suicide is that it might all be well and good for the person in question, a mantra I do not ascribe to myself but I am not about to impose on others, is it has ongoing ramifications for those who are still alive thereafter. A person could reasonably do it themselves without the assistance, this we are all aware of, but the aid makes the process easier; having somewhere there with you even if not friend or relative makes dying less painful to some extent. It makes the choice less difficult and the looming threat of failure, as well as presumed punishment, ostracization, belittlement, reprimand, whatever, a factor that is non-existent. It lowers the inherent thresholds of opposition that the mind should regularly be using to push back with - it makes death a more simple alternative than it already is. Yet suicide is not just about the individual in question taking their own life under their own volition, though it is entirely a valid argument that it is not always voluntary due to psychological compromise and duress, but the other people who are alive after.

Some of us have experienced the violent deaths and or suicides in person, which is to say that is obviously more traumatic than finding someone dead beside their bed with a bottle of pills or in the hypothetical case, a doctor's office where they were effectively euthanized. People by and large do not deal with death well, meaning that the person surrendering their life and voiding it could well do it against the consent of others who now become responsible for everything, be it the funeral, to debt, to children or spouses, to their pets, et cetera. The assisted suicide might be easier, given this is a clinical procedure and action, but the overall implications would be absolutely mired in a spiderweb of legal actions that others would willingly need to undertake for the to-be-departed member in question. The majority of people would not agree to this as they often care or even love other people enough to not want to lose them, but also because they do not want to assume more responsibility.

To step back for a moment and ponder upon it, let us say such a system existed where you did not need to gain the agreement of those people to do so. Again, the member undertaking the assisted suicide process is forcing their decision upon others unwillingly; unless they consented to dealing with the events after, as in accepted the risk and responsibility, the action that is already selfish still is... just slightly less so. Let us continue in another hypothetical where one could choose to allow the clinic performing the procedure to assume the responsibility, but at what cost? Those vulnerable to suicide are already compromised, meaning they might well surrender that which is not theirs to or worse for them, be unable to afford any of it or offer such a legal transfer of authority. No less, is it not somewhat morally questionable at all tiers that in this example, people trade quite a bit of what they own to die outright when they themselves are not in the right state of mind?

There are greater issues with this proposal than I believe are being admitted and I have not so much as sunk my teeth into them here as my point is more about the people left behind, which is where I think greater issue is taken. For myself, I do not disagree with allowing people to commit suicide - there is only so much you can do to prevent them from choosing the final option - but at the same time I will not condone or encourage the behavior, let alone as a practice which will only reasonably still harm others in the process despite it being "nicer" to look at or think about. That shiny veneer is an illusion, a distraction.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

To summarize your points and give a WTL;DR: you appear to be saying that suicide is harder for those left behind than it is for the people who end up dead. I agree with this. It's literally the #1 argument I can think of to get someone to NOT commit suicide.

BTW if any of you out there suffer from depression and were prescribed Abilify, feel free to never ever see that psychiatrist/physician again. Stuff does not work for "mood stabilization" and is meant more for dementia patients than as a behavior drug. Psychiatrists, psychologists, and behavioral therapists seem to mostly be money-grubbing w....erm, harlots.

[Heat]

People claim god is righteous and omnipotent. I guess I'm a fucking idiot because my definition of what's right and wrong goes against what's preached all the time: "It's all part of his plan, trust in him and he won't fail you," etc. I'm not okay with these things happening, even though people pray against it. But somehow, Suzie prayed hard enough and x amount of times so she could get an "A" instead of a "B" on her final, and it happened. But fuck the millions of others suffering, right?

I'm not here to change anyone's mind, just here to show why I think such delusion is bullshit.

Also, Bob could do all those things and more, but the second he makes that prayer, he's golden. No hell for him.

@Xandrya

But don't you know that praying for hurricane victims actually prevents future hurricanes? Thoughts and prayers is the most powerful thing in the world. Not donating money, or time, or any other form of actual aid.

[POOHEAD189]

Yeah no that's stupid and wrong

@Andreyich