Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[NightinGem]

modern science in a nutshell

@Andreyich

Or mayhap we're learning more about gender and people are getting upset it's more complicated than they thought? My girlfriend is trans--her brain's gender does not match her physical sex, and she suffers from gender dysphoria (which, by the way, is indeed a mental illness). She's seeking therapy and transitioning--treating her mental illness and becoming the woman she is mentally. She's happier than she's ever been. And yet I get people saying that she's faking it for attention, or should just accept her body and not mutiliate it. Also, lifesitenews is notoriously biased and not a source one should look to for scientific fact-instead, I would look at peer-reviewed scientific journals, most which which, surprise, support the idea that gender and sex are different! I am open to debate on this topic with anyone; my opinions are based on scientific fact and a bit of empathy for my fellow human, and I am entirely willing to educate and be educated.

[mdk]

I would look at peer-reviewed scientific journals, most which which, surprise, support the idea that gender and sex are different!

@NightinGem

Cite one. Cite one from memory.

[Penny]

@Andreyich

Many scientists initially rejected quantum mechanics but as there is an emergent consensus on the subject based on experimental data, it is now overwhelmingly accepted. Vigorous debate exists regarding the minutia of even well established scientific concepts. That is how we refine knowledge. Changing your position as new experimental evidence becomes available is a feature, not a bug.

I applaud Bill Nye for using the social constructed term gender in a more nuanced way. He really should have said, your gamete production is according to a consensus of biologists who base this on experimental evidence and observation, determined by your chromosomes. But hey, its a fun meme.

[Penny]

@mdk Fear not, Science is still out there sciencing despite the non stop effort to suppress conclusions that people don't like. And the constant cut backs in pure research budgets of course, because why are we spending all this money on understanding the universe anyway!

Que someone finding an out of context article for some weird sounding grant.

I guess doing research in the university setting is becoming harder now that they are apparently free fire zones which require the national guard to keep order. Or so I gather from the comments around the place.

[mdk]

@mdk Fear not, Science is still out there sciencing despite the non stop effort to suppress conclusions that people don't like. And the constant cut backs in pure research budgets of course, because why are we spending all this money on understanding the universe anyway!

Que someone finding an out of context article for some weird sounding grant.

I guess doing research in the university setting is becoming harder now that they are apparently free fire zones which require the national guard to keep order. Or so I gather from the comments around the place.

@Penny

uh........ okay?

[NightinGem]

<Snipped quote by NightinGem>

Cite one. Cite one from memory.

@mdk

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3786754

The terms “sex” and “gender” merit clarification because both are used inconsistently and interchangeably in research on health. Sex refers to the biological distinctions between males and females, most often in connection with reproductive functions.8 Gender, by contrast, emphasizes the socially constructed differences between men and women that give rise to masculinity and femininity.9 The term gender can be applied to individual difference, as well as to cultural, institutional, and structural difference.

Here ya go! :) I have multitudes saved and am entirely willing to debate! Also, I hope you don't mind, but I cited directly rather than from memory, as that tends to be more accurate~

[Andreyich]

1) Or mayhap we're learning more about gender and people are getting upset it's more complicated than they thought? 2) My girlfriend is trans--her brain's gender does not match her physical sex, and she suffers from gender dysphoria (which, by the way, is indeed a mental illness). 3) She's seeking therapy and transitioning--treating her mental illness and becoming the woman she is mentally. She's happier than she's ever been. And yet I get people saying that she's faking it for attention, or should just accept her body and not mutiliate it. 4) Also, lifesitenews is notoriously biased and not a source one should look to for scientific fact-instead, I would look at peer-reviewed scientific journals, most which which, surprise, support the idea that gender and sex are different! I am open to debate on this topic with anyone; my opinions are based on 5) scientific fact and a bit of 6) empathy for my fellow human, and 7) I am entirely willing to educate and be educated.

1) no not really, unless you keep redacting definitions i.e. saying racism is prejudice + power rather than just prejudice.

2) are you trying to bait me into saying something obnoxious like ">her"? Not cool man. But I do agree on that it is a disorder, which I thought was the preferred term because illness has a """"negative connotation.""""

3) It is mutilation and the majority of people going through these things are in a phase, no matter how much their blue and purple haired pals tell them it isn't. Also, it's funny how fat acceptance gets a 49π degree rotation when it comes to transsexuality/gender/racialism/whatever

4) It doesn't agree with me so it's wrong :,(((((((

5) yeah I'm sure lol

6) First off the word you're looking for is sympathy, don't even pretend to empathize with your """fellow human being""" because your experiences are too different. Secondly, the implication that others aren't empathetic/sympathetic because they do not share the same opinions is just stupid.

7) Considering that you only have 2 posts in 0 days and you rushed in to this thread to """intervene""" I think this more or less translates to "Agree with me or you are [buzzword]"

[Penny]

We were talking at one point about how universities were lawless places that needed intervention. Also we use the word national alot in this thread!

I believe it to be a natural and needed reaction from Americans to restore order if law enforcement will not. At what point I find that to end, is when the police begin doing their job, albeit I still advocate the deployment of National Guard units to restore order and as a show of force regardless.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

[Andreyich]

@Penny
Redacting knowledge goes both ways, not just for the positive. Genocides are denied but well, they're still there.

I applaud Bill Nye for using the social constructed term gender in a more nuanced way.

Literally all terms are socially constructed. At that point anyone can use any word as... anything. If people want to change definitions there should be some grand meeting of Anglophone countries to agree on what means what and if anything in English should be changed, and this should be announced on like every news outlets rather than people getting upset over certain things. This is particularly hard for all sorts of old-timers and people who don't really want their language changed because it's an element of their culture/heritage, like a whole lot of Norn Irelanders.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3786754
<Snipped quote>
Here ya go! :) I have multitudes saved and am entirely willing to debate! Also, I hope you don't mind, but I cited directly rather than from memory, as that tends to be more accurate~

@NightinGem

That's (a) wildly out of context, (b) not an assertion, and (c) not backed up by any experimentation or evidence.

A. The subject of the article, quoted here (first the objective statement, then the conclusion):

First, to what extent are sex and gender incorporated into research on genetics and health? Second, how might social science understandings of sex and gender, and gender differences in health, become more integrated into scholarship in this area?

...

We argue that making the connection between sex-linked biological variation and gender differences in health outcomes will benefit from greater attention to the intertwining of social and biological variation over the life course.

Social construction of gender, as it is presented in this article, relates to workplace morbidity, educational advancement, and the like. In no way is the article asserting that biological sex and gender ARE different -- rather, it argues that by considering the social factors (such as workplace risks and education), conclusions resultant from sex will make more sense.

B. The article does not at any point assert there is a difference; if it did, it would have to present support for that argument, but it does not.

C. The methodology of this research is metadata analysis of other articles searched by keyword. It's glorified googling. No actual science took place.

[NightinGem]

<Snipped quote>
1) no not really, unless you keep redacting definitions i.e. saying racism is prejudice + power rather than just prejudice.

2) are you trying to bait me into saying something obnoxious like ">her"? Not cool man But I do agree on that it is a disorder, which I thought was the preferred term because illness has a """"negative connotation.""""

3) It is mutilation and the majority of people going through these things are in a phase, no matter how much their blue and purple haired pals tell them it isn't. Also, it's funny how fat acceptance gets a 49π degree rotation when it comes to transsexuality/gender/racialism/whatever

4) It doesn't agree with me so it's wrong :,(((((((

5) yeah I'm sure lol

6) First off the word you're looking for is sympathy, don't even pretend to empathize with your """fellow human being""" because your experiences are too different. Secondly, the implication that others aren't empathetic/sympathetic because they do not share the same opinions is just stupid.

7) Considering that you only have 2 posts in 0 days and you rushed in to this thread to """intervene""" I think this more or less translates to "Agree with me or you are [buzzword]"

@Andreyich

1) uhhhh excuse me? Language is constantly evolving and definitions change, it's in its very nature. As we learn more things, we update our connotations--is that not how society progressives?

2) I was trying to bring in my personal experience with the topic and bring a bit of humanity to this topic so you would realize that there are very real people associated with this topic in ways that are not simply "trendy." And yeah, gender dysphoria is a mental illness, it fucking sucks. Watching my gf deal with it hurts. Watching her start to overcome it is one of the best feelings I've ever had.

3) Fat acceptance leads to severe health issues, a lot of the time? Not attacking people who are overweight is generally great, but when someone is obese to the point where it negatively impacts their health, it is dangerous to say "don't care, be yourself!" So long as acceptance does not negatively impact people, what is wrong with it? Also, I would absolutely love for you to cite your source on that. Love the use of generalizations and the loaded language. sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gende… Have a Harvard. I have some more formal studies as well.

4) It blatantly denies scientific evidence and uses biased, unconfirmed resources so it's wrong. :((( This also goes for more liberal sites like HuffPost!

5) Indeed, they are! Want some peer-reviewed studies?

6) Sympathy and empathy are both rather important, and I may have misworded my phrase a bit. But let me tell you, differing opinions can be dehumanizing wmd harmful. "I don't like this show," that's an opinion, that's fine. "I don't think you should have equal rights and also your identity is made up" is generally pretty harmful.

7) I came in this thread to educate. Education is the greatest cure to inequality and bigoted views, and if we respect one another and recognize legitimate differences, the world gets better, little by little.

[Andreyich]

Also, got a few more tests

Hidden document of covert neo-nazi dubbed "Andreyich" circa 2017

[Penny]

Literally all terms are socially constructed.

@Andreyich

We agree on that! Bill is using a more modern version of the term. It would really be better if he talked about gamete production but he isn't talking to an audience of biologists.

This is particularly hard for all sorts of old-timers and people who don't really want their language changed because it's an element of their culture/heritage, like a whole lot of Norn Irelanders.

@Andreyich

However shall they manage? Kids these days with their new fangled words and redefining of concepts. Language belongs to everyone and sometimes language can be changed to reflect new nuance. Rejoice that there is yet undiscovered linguistic territory to explore!

[mdk]

However shall they manage? Kids these days with their new fangled words and redefining of concepts. Language belongs to everyone and sometimes language can be changed to reflect new nuance. Rejoice that there is yet undiscovered linguistic territory to explore!

@Penny

This post brought to you by the Ministry of Truth.

[NightinGem]

Ah, such a lovely introduction to this forum. I absolutely love the smell of bigotry in the morning, I'm sure trans folks would feel absolutely welcomed on this forum!

psmag.com/social-justice/what-you-nee… Here's a list of peer-reviewed studies on transgender folks. You can bash me for it coming from a liberal site, etc, I just don't feel like copy and pasting everything and each of these studies it links to are peer-edited scientific journals. I understand that swaying your opinions is probably impossible, but I shall persist still, hoping at least to plant seeds of fact and sympathy in the minds of those reading.

[Penny]

is that not how society progressives?

@NightinGem

Oh no, not the P word! ;)

5) Indeed, they are! Want some peer-reviewed studies?

@NightinGem

Science is a vast liberal conspiracy, apparently.

7) I came in this thread to educate. Education is the greatest cure to inequality and bigoted views, and if we respect one another and recognize legitimate differences, the world gets better, little by little.

@NightinGem

Ah Night, I too was once young and innocent. Actually studies show that although people almost never change their mind in the teeth of a debate, the ideas you expose them to do tend to eat away at their certainties. We can hope that a positive effect might one day be achieved, even if we dont see it.

[NightinGem]

<Snipped quote by Penny>

This post brought to you by the Ministry of Truth.

@mdk

So allowing language to evolve is indicative of a fascist, oppressive society? Interesting, interesting. I would almost think that the general not being involved in the development of their language is what truly leads to loss of independent thought.

[NightinGem]

<Snipped quote by NightinGem>

Ah Night, I too was once young and innocent. Actually studies show that although people almost never change their mind in the teeth of a debate, the ideas you expose them to do tend to eat away at their certainties. We can hope that a positive effect might one day be achieved, even if we dont see it.

@Penny

I've never been able to understand that; if someone has evidence my opinion is wrong, then shouldn't I change it? Even if I'm upset about it? Facts supersede opinion. I also cannot understand the idea of people being unable to place themselves in others' shoes, hence why I use the term empathy instead of sympathy. It's rather funny, the only situations where I can't put myself in others' shoes are situations where they refuse to do it themselves, and of course also the denial of objective fact.

[Penny]

@NightinGem

So allowing language to evolve is indicative of a fascist, oppressive society? Interesting, interesting. I would almost think that the general not being involved in the development of their language is what truly leads to loss of independent thought.
[/quote]

This is why I exclusively post in Old English, its what the Venerable Bede and the Beowulf author would have wanted.

[Penny]

I've never been able to understand that; if someone has evidence my opinion is wrong, then shouldn't I change it? Even if I'm upset about it? Facts supersede opinion. I also cannot understand the idea of people being unable to place themselves in others' shoes, hence why I use the term empathy instead of sympathy. It's rather funny, the only situations where I can't put myself in others' shoes are situations where they refuse to do it themselves, and of course also the denial of objective fact.

@NightinGem

You would think it would work that way but that isn't what the evidence would suggest. People invest their identity in their opinions and they don't easily give it up. Even in cases where your opinion is made manifestly untrue by new evidence, there is still a part of you that immediately denies it. I suspect it varies with the importance you attach to a particular opinion but I cant claim to be an expert in the field.