Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[Penny]

I'm actually somewhat impressed with the uncharacteristically understated media coverage. 12 months ago fox would have been jumping up and down and beating their chests.

[mdk]

Maybe this wouldn't be a problem if people didn't go to the middle east to depose secular rulers that while dictatorial kept a lid on everything. I don't think that all blame can be put on the EU here, America and Russia are also very much responsible for engineering the horrors that are boating over.

@Andreyich

Well the USA stayed out of Syria while Russia propped up the secular dicator and the EU welcomed everybody with open arms, and look where that got us (ISIS stands for "Islamic State in Syria," they began over exactly this).



And that's not even all the attacks -- and tonight is the "night of power" so expect the list to grow in the next 12 hours.

[Penny]

@mdk I guess it depends how far back you want to trace the problem. Creating a huge power vacuum in Iraq and creating a cockpit for Saudi v Iran? Toppling Saddam, Supporting the Saudis, deposing the Shaw, backing the Mujahadeen against the Soviets, The Soviets going into Afganistan Deposing the Shaw, British Imperial policy, Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War and on and on.

I don't want to characterize all these as mistakes made by Americans, or Brits or whomever but the chains of historical incidence are always long.

[Penny]

@mdk

Maybe we should stop praying, it seems like the belief in the Fairy Godmother is part of the problem.

[mdk]

@mdk I guess it depends how far back you want to trace the problem. Creating a huge power vacuum in Iraq and creating a cockpit for Saudi v Iran? Toppling Saddam, Supporting the Saudis, deposing the Shaw, backing the Mujahadeen against the Soviets, The Soviets going into Afganistan Deposing the Shaw, British Imperial policy, Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War and on and on.

I don't want to characterize all these as mistakes made by Americans, or Brits or whomever but the chains of historical incidence are always long.

@Penny

And Grrk took Unnkkk the Caveman's rock, which ultimately explains everything. Islamic State in Syria is (a) an Islamic organization, (b) a modern political entity (state), and (c) a Syria product, and they are using the EU's complacency to spread. These are facts.
They are also a product of complacency and non-intervention. -- that's analysis, but it's not a reach. This crisis is not the fault of the political left, but the political left allowed it to happen and the political left will never be able to stop it (they say so themselves)

[Penny]

The origins of of ISIS are in Iraq, not in Syria. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria is the earlier title. It grows up out of the Sunni Jihadi movement that centered around the American invasion of Iraq. It has since become more Syria focused and somewhat more international but we are talking about the genesis of the organisation.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>

Maybe we should stop praying, it seems like the belief in the Fairy Godmother is part of the problem.

@Penny

Meanwhile, in Poland...

[mdk]

The origins of of ISIS are in Iraq, not in Syria. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria is the earlier title. It grows up out of the Sunni Jihadi movement that centered around the American invasion of Iraq. It has since become more Syria focused and somewhat more international but we are talking about the genesis of the organisation.

@Penny

Fair enough.

[Penny]

Maybe we should stop praying, it seems like the belief in the Fairy Godmother is part of the problem.

@Penny

Some anti immigrant crap

@mdk

So your contending that these terrorist attacks aren't religiously motivated?

[mdk]

So your contending that these terrorist attacks aren't religiously motivated?

@Penny

how in the hell did you get that?

[Penny]

It isn't as though there have never been terrorist attacks from secular motivators, but it seems like the modern flavor is overwhelming religious.

[Penny]

@mdk Because your response to my assertion that religion was part of the problem was to move to a different issue. I assumed that implied disagreement. If I'm wrong I apologize.

[mdk]

It isn't as though there have never been terrorist attacks from secular motivators, but it seems like the modern flavor is overwhelming religious.

@Penny

A pretty specific religion. The point of that Poland post was to demonstrate that them darn relijis folk in Poland seem to be doing an infinitely better job resisting terror than the secular/tolerant EU.

[Penny]

@mdk All religion contains the same poison, it just which flavor is most virulent right now. We would be infinitely better off if we got rid of the whole lot of it.

As for taking in immigrants increasing the risk of attack. It very likely does increase the chance of attack. Even granting that, I would still advocate for it.

[mdk]

As for taking in immigrants increasing the risk of attack. It very likely does increase the chance of attack. Even granting that, I would still advocate for it.

@Penny

I have no problem whatsoever of any kind with immigration. What I have a problem with is, you know, murder.

All religion contains the same poison, it just which flavor is most virulent right now.

plus, you know, those Shinto monks are basically identical to kosher Hebrews.

[Penny]

@mdk I'm not contending that Christian's commit the same number of terrorist attacks as Muslims do. I'm saying that the possibility for the same type violence exists in all religions. Anytime you have a supernatural force which can dictate your morality, you can do horrible things.

Look for examples at the pogroms against Jews by devout Christian's in the middle ages. Aztec human sacrifice, kind of hard to arrive at if you don't believe that the Gods will it. Deeply religious people doing what they felt their God wanted.

Admittedly you would have to work pretty hard to create Buddhist suicide bombers.

[mdk]

Look for examples at the pogroms against Jews by devout Christian's in the middle ages.

@Penny

Not something they taught me much about in sunday school, so forgive me if I'm missing your mark here -- my rudimentary search seems to indicate that this was associated with the Crusades (and other typical jingoist prejudices -- the mass-executions seem to be Crusade related). Holy wars will do that. Religion + Politics is a bad combo -- but it's hardly fair to literally eradicate religion over that. After all you're certainly not advocating a total eradication of politics. I haven't done the math, but something tells me you don't wanna stack all the bodies of political wars on one side and all the bodies of religious wars on the other and compare the size of the piles.

I'm saying that the possibility for the same type violence exists in all religions.

The possibility for the same type of violence exists in all people.

Admittedly you would have to work pretty hard to create Buddhist suicide bombers.

Well you would hope so. BUUUUUUUUUUUT.........

EDIT: and, heh, I forgot to mention that the Japanese literally invented suicide bombing (Kamikaze ring a bell?) So much for that theory.

[Penny]

Religion + Politics is a bad combo

@mdk

Well amen to that (if you will excuse the pun). Islamic Terrorism too mixes religion and politics. ISIS is, as you say, a political entity of sorts.

it's hardly fair to literally eradicate religion over that.

@mdk

No, and I'm not advocating that we should start eradicating the religious. I'm just contending that we might be much better off as a species if we could wave a secular wand and get rid of the whole sorry mess. It might be a bit easier for people to make rational decisions if they hadn't been brainwashed as children to think that God, or Allah or whomever wanted them to act a certain way.

As a historical note, although there were certainly pogroms against Jews associated with the Crusades*, they continued in a relatively unbroken stream from before the declaration of the First Crusade up into the early Renaissance. Particularly during times of trouble, like during the Black Death, Jews were likely to be massacred. Documented cases exist of hundreds or thousands of Jews being massacred or burned alive.

These people weren't that different from you and I. They just got it into their head that this is what God wanted. Not that unlike idiots today who get it into there head that what Allah really wants is to blow up a train-station.

Barbara Tuchman's masterwork A Distant Mirror contains some truly grotesque examples in France and in what is today Germany. Some of the stuff about Blood Libel is really terrifying. I'm less familiar with Iberia but I think its fair to say that given the later preoccupation with crypto-jews and such that you can expect more of the same.

*I'm using the term crusades to apply to the earlier Crusades here, as crusading as a tradition continued for a very long time, with decreasingly zeal. There were for example annual Crusades conducted by the Teutonic order more or less for fun, and intra-Christian crusades which fit less well into what we generally consider the Crusades.

[Penny]

I refuse to apologize for the use of footnotes!

[Gwynbleidd]

Relevant, I believe.