Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[mdk]

clears throat autistically
since no legitimate bantz have been happening as of late I'm going to bring up another topic

the horseshoe theory, and it's validity

Now, I think economically it is very true; both sides on the extremes want abolishment of government, and knowing human nature ancom and ancap will end up more or less identical.

However socially, the right and left only get further and further

what do you think reader?

@Andreyich

Meh.

Meh. There's some truth to it, but mostly based on ignorance. Horseshoe is an illusion caused by general ignorance. Yes, people appear similar despite the "spectrum" or whatever, but actually their views are fundamentally different. The four-way axis is a lot more accurate. A six-way axis would be more accurate than that, and a 5-d hypersphere would be more accurate than that. Simplifying the utter complexity of ALL POLITICAL THOUGHT into A vs B is great classroom fodder, but it's bullshit.

[Andreyich]

<Snipped quote by Andreyich>

Meh.

Meh. There's some truth to it, but mostly based on ignorance. Horseshoe is an illusion caused by general ignorance. Yes, people appear similar despite the "spectrum" or whatever, but actually their views are fundamentally different. The four-way axis is a lot more accurate. A six-way axis would be more accurate than that, and a 5-d hypersphere would be more accurate than that. Simplifying the utter complexity of ALL POLITICAL THOUGHT into A vs B is great classroom fodder, but it's bullshit.

@mdk

Once again, I think this is true except for the economy in general. Yes, as you say it is an oversimplification but you can't go down to every detail, for now that's just impossible. So, once again I reiterate the [all but factual] theory that economic right and left become extremely similar at the extremes.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>
Once again, I think this is true except for the economy in general. Yes, as you say it is an oversimplification but you can't go down to every detail, for now that's just impossible. So, once again I reiterate the [all but factual] theory that economic right and left become extremely similar at the extremes.

@Andreyich

If you're looking only at economics, then left and right are irrelevant standards by which to measure. Maybe I'm not understanding the question.

[mdk]

Hider

@penny

[IceHeart]

(I feel like this topic may have been mentioned a while ago but I don't want to search through the thread so whatever)

So I just got back from watching the new Spider-Man: Homecoming movie and the strange obsession with racial-bending was never so apparent. Course if you never were someone who followed Spider-Man at all as a kid no doubt it probably wouldn't have grated on your nerves as much as it did me. This diversity agenda was so ridiculously strong it was just impossible not to see which detracted a bit from the film unfortunately.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a diverse cast but changing such iconic characters from the Spider-Man franchise into such different characters just felt so forced. At least they had the guts to make the new MJ a totally different character from the old one with an actual different name, Michelle, who is definitely not Mary Jane. From what little I got to see of her character though, she seems very unlikable as a character and I pity Peter Parker if he ends up dating her.

I am unsure what in the world compelled the writers to make Flash Thompson, who was always a really athletic, jock type bully character, into some rather small Indian kid with no physical presence whatsoever. It is just one of the strangest casting choices for Flash I had ever seen making him completely unrecognizable from his source material. Overall the diversity thing isn't that big of a deal although the poster boys for this diversity agenda were certainly Flash, MJ, and Peter's new friend who at least is a new character and not some reimagining of the comic book characters.

And what was with the new Aunt May? She was just...weird, I was so confused by her character and the terminology she used, what is she supposed to be an ex-hippie or something?

Well, what do you guys think of the whole messing with old comic book characters and changing them in such radical ways instead of just doing an update for them? The biggest problem I have with it is how it can completely change the original purpose of the character if they go too far with the changes. Take Flash for instance, he was suppose to be the big bully jock that Peter would often clash with but had to be careful around since beating the big jock in a fight as puny Parker could be bad for his secret identity. In this version of the Flash he is just another annoying kid who likes to use annoying words and phrases rather than trying to be a physically imposing person who is used to getting his own way.

The movie itself was good but man I had a hard time liking a lot of the characters which made me not enjoy the film as much as I wished I could.

The superhero industry these days really is on the front line of a strange culture war.

[mdk]

@iceheart

Haven't seen it yet. Haven't even read much about it -- trying to preserve some movie innocence -- so this is more of an in-general response. I'm not bothered by racial-bending casting choices. Like I had zero interest in the Dark Tower movie until I found out Idris Elba was starring -- but that pisses off my (super liberal) coworker because "HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE WHITE." I don't care. I don't care at all.

But.

I definitely am concerned that it's becoming, like..... essential. The BBC reserves like three whole paragraphs of every movie review to grade the film's diversity record. You get people vomiting on Twitter about how Dunkirk is "too white." And you get your monthly "This superhero should be __________." Since Disney owns Marvel studios it's gonna keep going forever..... I feel like people are so passionately missing the goddamn point that they're furious at anyone who doesn't miss it with them. But, Disney owns it, so the virtue signalling will continue until forever.

[Penny]

@IceHeart

I haven't seen the movie (and likely never will) but it sounds like this is a casting issue rather than one of race. Would you have had a problem with it if they had found a buff imposing Indian actor?

[POOHEAD189]

I must agree with @IceHeart. While I am all for people of different races (I'm mixed, myself) being portrayed in media, recently they've compromised media in order to promote an agenda. Movie studios are casting people specifically because they are minorities, instead of casting the best actor choices.

@mdkHonestly Idras Elba being made into Roland was the dumbest thing. He's literally modeled after Clint Eastwood, and they went with Idras Elba because he was black. That's the most base example of compromising media.

Honestly, I feel like this is just as bad as casting actors because they are conventionally attractive. Like the Dwarves in the Hobbit movies. Those are not the Dwarves from the Hobbit (I should know, I used to read it once a year in school. Read it about 6-7 times). Yet they cast these male models, and these very skinny men, into Dwarves. I fucking hated it (I'm a huge Dwarf fan if you cannot tell).

All I want is consistency. Just be accurate with who you cast, and stray true to what the story is. Don't bring politics or sex appeal into a story, at least to the point it compromises it.

[IceHeart]

@IceHeart

I haven't seen the movie (and likely never will) but it sounds like this is a casting issue rather than one of race. Would you have had a problem with it if they had found a buff imposing Indian actor?

@Penny

It'd still seem strange to me, but having a buff imposing Indian playing him would have been closer to what the original character was suppose to represent so probably not. I understand these are high school kids so he wouldn't be too developed but certainly they could have picked an actor that could give off the athletic, bad-boy vibe rather than whoever that was they chose. He was just so far from Flash Thompson's original character they might as well have just made him someone entirely new instead.

One of the worst cases I have seen in recent series History of this obsession with minorities has to be the Jimmy Olsen switch they did for SuperGirl though. The young, dorky kid who was always in the superman cartoons who worked for the daily planet and was a redhead, was changed into a good-looking black man. Well he got changed to James if I remember correct but still its so opposite of the original character it was just so weird. Anyway, Supergirl is definitely not a series I could ever recommend, a textbook example of politics and agendas being forced down the viewers throat without worrying about the story quality.

That new Star Trek series, Discovery, they're trying to do is going to fail miserably. Doesn't look anything like how Star Trek is supposed to look or feel.

[Penny]

Ohhh, now Star Trek I will watch!

I wasn't exposed to comic books as a child so I find superhero stories very difficult to get into as an adult. Tin Tin is about the only comic I can ever remember reading.

[Dolerman]

@IceHeartHi I just watched homecoming and I had plenty of issues with the film, but i think the racial casting raises some interesting points.

First and foremost for the most part, I don't like race-lifting, if you want to have more diverse character then just make new ones, instead of changing old ones. The Michelle/MJ character didn't bother me too much because as you say she was a new character with MJ being a homage/reference.

Flash's casting really annoyed me, not so much because he was small and indian but more because he wasn't even really a bully, he was just a snarky douche who was actually in Peter's friend circle which was just bizzare. He had very little character beyond being sarcastic and cowardly. Now as far as his race, one thing ive learned to accept is that the comics are in a totally different universe, Iron Man had is Origin Story in Afganistan instead of Vietnahm because makes sense with the times. Queens is one of the mos multi ethnic places in America in 2017 so a bit of racial difference makes a lot of sense.

Also lets not pretend the other spiderman movies had Flash faithfully portrayed

Movie vs comics

Also, I notice you didn't mention it, but some people have an issue with the Vulture's character having a daughter who's half black. Now anyone who's actually read the comics would realise that Vulture has always had a multi-racial family, albeit in the form of a black adopted grandson. With the same motivation to steal to make money for. The comics actually do a damn good job of representing races even before the Marvel Agenda series.

So yeah overall, my point is that movies just exist on a different reality, but I agree that homecoming had some poor casting choices.

[Dolerman]

@IceHeart@mdk@POOHEAD189 also for the sake of consistency, I'm guessing you all have the same issue with whitewashing characters in movies too?

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

@Dynamo Frokane

I was never a fan of any of these series or their movies, but the portrayals from their original media are legendarily egregious and shameful. My only contact with them was by proxy, typically by interaction between fans or viewing the reviews of critics on their subjects, but there seems to be fairly universal hate for these incarnations.

A bit more on the topic itself, I find myself of the affiliation that adaptations - wherein race or gender are changed among other things - should be toward the lower end of priority. I prefer material that stays more true to its canon in its adaptation where possible. The exception to this is when you add qualifier's such as someone's reimagining or in scenarios where the fantastic or unusual do not seem out of place. The latter I refer to was when I had seen both the recent Jungle Book and Beauty and the Beast, a great number of characters had changed, including some core ones as with Shere Khan being played by Elba and Kaa by Johansson. In this case where the actors are already exceptional beings that are only remotely anthropomorphized - either speaking animals or animate objects - there is not a disconnect that creates any real dissonance with their person; there is no direct connection in mind between what you expect "reality" to be - you more willingly suspend your disbelief. And for reference, I do think the modern incarnations of these two films are better than their originals once you remove the childhood nostalgia - and no, not just because Elba as Khan is an impressive feline villain and absolutely ruthless.

But when dealing with exclusively human actors in scenarios where there is a tremendous amount of lore and story supporting them as to who they are? The changing of race, personality and portrayal are... less than faithful to the persona to be portrayed; more significant than say the "fantastical France" in Beauty and the Beast. It comes off as very transparent and flimsy. It feels insincere in this time and age, a product of corporate pandering to the social justice arm and more moderate mainstream.

[Dolerman]

@Dynamo Frokane

I was never a fan of any of these series or their movies, but the portrayals from their original media are legendarily egregious and shameful. My only contact with them was by proxy, typically by interaction between fans or viewing the reviews of critics on their subjects, but there seems to be fairly universal hate for these incarnations.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Well the film reactions were a bit of a mixed bag, Prince of Persia was seen as average, King Of Fighters was a straight to DVD film damn near nobody watched. A mighty heart with Angelina Jolie was critically acclaimed. Last Airbender and Dragon Ball was despised. But these reactions were more about the films themselves than the racial portrayals. I was just making the point that if you have an issue with Idris Elba being the Dark Tower guy you should also have an issue with Scarlet Johannson being the ghost in the shell girl, for sake of consistency.

[mdk]

@IceHeart@mdk@POOHEAD189 also for the sake of consistency, I'm guessing you all have the same issue with whitewashing characters in movies too?

@Dynamo Frokane

Haven't seen it yet. Haven't even read much about it -- trying to preserve some movie innocence -- so this is more of an in-general response. I'm not bothered by racial-bending casting choices. Like I had zero interest in the Dark Tower movie until I found out Idris Elba was starring -- but that pisses off my (super liberal) coworker because "HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE WHITE." I don't care. I don't care at all.

@mdk

Most of these were terrible movies because they were terrible movies and it has nothing to do with whitewashing. To reiterate: I care exactly 0% about the race of an actor.

EDIT: GiTS note. People got so wound up about "MAJOR" being some white chick that they didn't even seem to notice Batou was turned human. See THAT'S what bothered me most about the movie -- Batou's character was totally fucky.

DOUBLE EDIT: y'know what though, they also made the villains in GiTS white. Funny. I never heard a single complaint from anybody about whitewashing the BAD guys. Gosh I wonder if there's a double-standard in play.

[mdk]

@mdkHonestly Idras Elba being made into Roland was the dumbest thing. He's literally modeled after Clint Eastwood, and they went with Idras Elba because he was black. That's the most base example of compromising media.

@POOHEAD189

Have you considered that maybe they went with Idris Elba because he was the best actor?

[Dolerman]

DOUBLE EDIT: y'know what though, they also made the villains in GiTS white. Funny. I never heard a single complaint from anybody about whitewashing the BAD guys. Gosh I wonder if there's a double-standard in play.

@mdk

Yeah I could never imagine a film doing the opposite.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Have you considered that maybe they went with Idris Elba because he was the best actor?

@mdk

No, because he would have needed to be far and away better than all of the others for them to even consider Roland Deschain to be played by this guy.


Now, if all of the other actors who auditioned were shit, I'd be like "well, the story must go on, and Idras Elba is a fan of the books so if anyone of a different race is to play Roland, I'm glad its him."

But I'm sorry, I just do not believe that. Hell, if I was the director, I'd find someone who looks the part and send them to 6 more months of acting school instead of casting a black person for a white role.

If people are up in arms about the cast of Mulan being asian, and the cast of Aladdin being middle eastern, I want them to consistent about white roles being played by white actors. There are exceptions like I said above. You can't always cast your original actor, but still.

NOW, if this was a movie set in an original universe, then go with the best actor as I said before. If you're toying with the idea of say, a movie set 30 years in the future about a man fighting against aliens for humanity's freedom. And you have in your mind a white actor, but Idras Elba walks up and performs better than the other white actors, AWESOME! I'm glad he went up there and autditioned, because we are getting the best actor for the role and I like Idras Elba.

But the movie is a movie based on Tom Hanks' life story, no. I don't want Idras Elba being cast as Tom Hanks. Idgaf how good he is.

[Fabricant451]

But the movie is a movie based on Tom Hanks' life story, no. I don't want Idras Elba being cast as Tom Hanks. Idgaf how good he is.

@POOHEAD189

Maybe YOU don't but I'd love Tom Hanks as played by Idris Elba.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Maybe YOU don't but I'd love Tom Hanks as played by Idris Elba.

@Fabricant451

...You know what, you're right. I'd pay to see that.