Player Criticisms; everyone's responsibility or just GMs?

[Dervish]

I wanted to talk about this since I noticed more than a few comments in other threads about people not reading a post or skimming it because it just wasn't interesting to read. It got me thinking; would people find constructive criticism unwanted and/ or inappropriate if it was coming from other players in the game who weren't necessarily GMs? Obviously it's a case by case scenario and some people certainly wouldn't be offering helpful advice, but it's worth discussing.

So let's say you're in a game with another player but their posts are hard to read, filled with a lot of filler that can be trimmed down, are lacking description or any real character involvement, etc., would you find it inappropriate to post OOC or PM that player and give them some friendly advice, and if you were the player who was receiving criticism, would you welcome the advice or just find it obnoxious and intrusive?

Obviously you wouldn't want to do this all the time or even before a few rounds of posting is done, especially since it could border on perceived harassment, but say you're a few weeks in and you notice a trend (say a player's posts are more or less recaps of other people's posts, or they forget to punctuate frequently), would you consider offering advice to that player, or would you leave it to GMs?

I think everyone stands to improve on something, and I know myself that I tend to avoid getting criticism because I'm usually the GM, and I think some good natured pointers from fellow players you are comfortable with could be a really handy way to find out what you can do better.

If you decided to let players in your game do this, how abouts would you do it? Have an opt in section on character sheet submissions? I'm interested in your thoughts and if you think this would help or hurt games overall.

[MachineSoul]

I'm all for transparency and offering criticism where it is needed. It needs to be done graciously, and if you ask me, privately. Posting OOC criticism can bring negative feedback from others since most would interpret said criticism as a personal attack. Every roleplayer should improve their writing skills, and if it takes a nudge or two to put them in the right direction, why not?

But what also needs to be taken into consideration is that some just don't want to improve, and prefer to play as they usually do. This mentality usually comes from a lack of serious interest in roleplaying. What I mean by that is they don't really find the pleasure in sitting down and plotting the next move of their character, and just goes with what feels appropriate, and perhaps, awesome at the moment; or, like you suggested, they're outright lazy and reiterate what others have written before them.

As to who should be responsible for telling the player what they're doing wrong, I believe anyone who wishes to help others improve. Perhaps the GM won't necessarily mind that player's writing style (or lack thereof) since it does not directly affect the story in one way or another. Thus, the intervention of a player is most needed. So what if multiple criticisms arrive on their end? There's an infamous saying in my country which I find fitting here, and it roughly translates to:

"If two people tell you you're drunk, perhaps it's time to go home."

[Ammokkx]

It's a person-to-person thing. Some people want or are open to criticism, others not so much. Some won't hear it from anyone but the GM, others want everyone to dump a container of nitpicks all over them. I personally think you should be open to criticism from everyone and anyone, as long as you're being reasonable about it. Throwing in curse words and personal attacks isn't going to help anyone, but if you word something strongly it should not be dismissed as the former.

I, personally, am open to criticism from everyone but don't get a lot of it. I'm not going to chalk this up to me being a great writer- I find issue with my own work all the damn time. I think people are either just afraid to give critique or just don't think to. Some can't even find faults with their own work, and so fail to find problems with the work of others.

If someone gives you critique, be open to it no matter who it's from. If someone is insulting you for 15 minutes long over an audio file... well, I think at that point they just hate you personally.

[pugbutter]

I wanted to talk about this since I noticed more than a few comments in other threads about people not reading a post or skimming it because it just wasn't interesting to read.

@Dervish

Since I'm one of those people, I guess I should chime in.

My utmost respect goes to the people who, while already talented, have not ended their quest to become better at their hobby of choice—in this case, writing. Next on the list is people who, while producing off-quality works, are still eager to improve. This category includes new people learning the ropes.

I hold little or no respect for any writer, good or bad, who is content with his current skill level.

But with that said, if you're offering people criticism without it having been requested first, you're doing a few things wrong even despite your heart being in the right place, wanting to help them improve:

• You're veering on the edge of "backseat-GM" territory. Sometimes it just isn't your job particularly to burst that person's bubble, because the quality of the RP doesn't depend on your enforcements.
• You're assuming you're a better writer than him in one or more areas, and therefore, in a position whereby he can learn from you. This may be true, but it's not something which can always be gauged easily. Some good writers are bad roleplayers and vice-versa.
• You're assuming this person, and maybe the GM hosting the game, too, both hold themselves to the same standards as you, whereas they might judge writing quality by different parameters. After all, the player must have been good enough where the GM wanted to accept him at all, right?

I'll also point out that the more often you assume you're better than others at your shared hobby, the likelier it is that you suffer from Dunning-Kruger's. This seems especially common in the Guides section of the site, where our (entirely self-proclaimed) "elites" take it upon themselves to lecture others on right and wrong ways to engage in our hobby, a hobby where, supposedly, creativity and diversity of ideas and methods are held in greater esteem than most other virtues.

So, yeah. Even though I like to feel smugly superior to others, only under rare circumstances do I feel entitled to "fix" their errors, because they might not be committing errors at all, and I might be doing nothing (or worse) to "fix" them.

Not to out myself as a raging drunk or anything, but a guy named ralfystuff on YouTube likes to say sometimes: "It's not better, malt-mates. Just different."

[Dervish]

Fantastic replies so far, ladies and gents. It's certainly one of those topics that doesn't have a right or wrong answer, but @pugbutter had a really excellent point and it being a thing that comes from the right place but can be seen as backseat GMing/ an unintentional "I'm better than you, let me fix you" mentality. I rather agree with that sentiment, and I think it's why most people err on the side of politeness.

Let's say a GM had a form, so to speak, where players can optionally sign off their willingness to receive critism and advice or something of that nature where it's established and everyone on board with it declared their openness to the concept? Would that be something that would have merit in a roleplay?

[HeySeuss]

My advice is basically to not be a dick. I think I'd like feedback if it wasn't dickish, even from other players and not just the GM. I know I have comma problems and feel like it'd be nice to have someone just tell me what is up from a readability standpoint. I think the worry with these sorts of conversations is that certain personality types relish the opportunity to make someone feel inferior, and that's a bad dynamic.

All the same, feedback is good. It's just that feedback cannot cross the line to where it's some sort of mechanism where the critic feels validated by the pedagogy. The person offering criticism should need/want to see the other person improve and see worth. If it's just some dude getting off on how awesome he is by handing down lessons to others, playing that sensei role from mom's basement, it's a shit dynamic.

I have no idea how to offer that criticism. It's not an easy conversation to have. I know when I've told someone that they are not up to the standard for an RP, I've felt all kinds of crappy for saying it out loud, but felt obligated to on behalf of my other players.

tl;dr: Critics should be humble as fuck.

[Dion]

@Dervish the key for me is who is giving it and how they are giving it.

If Jan Doodlebag is telling me that my posts suck and that I need to do this and this better, when his posts look like someone vomited on a keyboard and the chunks of food in there happened to hit some keys, and then he hit send, I'm going to tell him in the nicest of ways how he should find a nearby metal rod and stick it up his ass.

If a veteran that has objectively superior posts tells me that I should pay attention to these things, but these things are good, and this could improve, then yeah, sure, I'd appreciate that.

I do have problems with people in my RP's that I GM that do this, because it's annoying as fuck. If I already cleared a character sheet and gave them a review, I don't need a non-GM to go in and tell them, while pushing their fucking glasses back onto their face, 'ackshually...' all smug-like and tell them everything that is wrong with a character. I also don't need people to go out of their way to tell people their posts suck, or something. Because I as a GM am very fucking active and I don't shy away from criticism, especially early on in the CS stage.

Now the problem for that doesn't come from the fact that people are giving feedback because I'd appreciate that, as a bystander, someone is taking time out of their day to comment and critique someone in a constructive way.

The problem is that most people on RPG happen to be extremely smug and, like mentioned before, suffer from Dunning-Krugers. And I'm gonna take the hard stance on that and just say fucking everyone here suffers from it, because the people who actually know how to offer advise are typically too fucking nice to do so on this website.

It has so far in my experience been impossible for someone to give feedback while not in a GM position. Either they try too hard to be 'objective' and come across entirely as some dumbass that wants to shit on someone and portray their opinion as facts, or they just base their entire feedback on their own opinions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in theory feedback and criticism is nice, totally dope and the best thing ever but that, as with 99% of other issues on RPG, the people on RPG are just too stupid (in my experience, so far) to be able to do it in a way that isn't condescending or downright insulting.

[pugbutter]

I have no idea how to offer that criticism.

@HeySeuss

I like to offer compliments alongside the critiques, ideally at a 1:1 ratio. It lets them know that their contributions are valuable and that you derive enjoyment from them, despite their imperfections.

[Lady Absinthia]

Everyone is going to be different when it comes to giving and receiving criticism, that is pretty much a given.

For me personally, as a Gm - yes - I will go in and tell people what is wrong with their posts. Now, that doesn't mean I am critiquing their grammar, whether they are gilding the lily too much or not enough, or the like. When I am pointing out something about a post it is 99% of the time a rule break or a simple call out of - "Hey, you missed this", "took too much liberty here", "messed up on coding", etc. gonna need an edit. Granted my Rp's are set up to push people a bit more than perhaps they are used to and I make no claims that I won't be running through things with a fine toothed comb if need be.

As much of a "hard ass evil Gm overlord" I am, I make sure to put out as much praise, if not more, as I criticize. I make sure to call out Rpers when they do something awesome, when I see character development, and so forth. I use those up vote "likes", make mentions in the OOC, or if I see massive improvement over time I will make a specialized posting about how far they have come. Each time an Rp of mine hits a certain milestone I ~gush~ about it and thank them for sticking it out. They are what makes the Rp live.

I am very lucky when it comes to my Rps. Most I have in my Rp's currently have been with me at least a year, some far longer (one I have been Rping with over a decade); so they know to take what I say as a means to help them be better in just general Rp mechanics. Which again, my way of doing things doesn't work for everyone, it just happens to work for me and there are those out there that enjoy how I do things. Some people hate it, so we don't Rp together. They go their way, I go mine, and we are better off for it instead of trying to butt heads with each other.

With a CS, I will rip it apart before I approve it. I make sure their skills match their back story, do they think they can pull off the fears listed, is everything filled out. That is just part of the Cs approval process and is an entirely different matter.

Now, outside of an RP I am personally Gming, unless someone just simply missed something that my character did, say speaking to them directly, I leave it to the GM to do as they see fit no matter my personal thoughts. Even further outside of that, when it comes to my tutorials I always leave in there that this is my way and that my way doesn't work for everyone. That each Rper and each Gm has to find what works for them. I just provide an outlook that has worked well for me over the years. Just because it has worked for me, doesn't mean it will others.

Rp is a creative outlet. Some take it more seriously than others, some find a different way to do it. As long as you find what works for you, that is all that matters. If you want critiques, don't be afraid to ask. If you don't - set your foot down and tell someone you appreciate their outlook but you are happy the way you are. You go to a hair dresser and want them to cut your hair but the stylists says "Hey! I think you would look awesome with a rainbow Mohawk!" it doesn't mean you have to get the rainbow Mohawk, it means you can go "Yeah, thanks but no." If you want to give critiques, you can always take a few minutes to place it on your bio page that you are willing to critique posts.

Anywho, my two copper pieces worth as per usual.

[Innue]

tl;dr: Critics should be humble as fuck.

@HeySeuss

Much agreed. Politeness and intent also matters significantly.

---

I also think @pugbutter also is correct with offering praise alongside. Very rarely have I strayed from offering some form of praise along with it, but those were bios that were just so generic and thrown together that I couldn't really praise anything. But that was also when I was a GM and the bio just wasn't meeting standards.

Even in cases like above, I often like to point it out as opportunities to enhance the character, rather than outright criticism. It tends to work fairly well and most people I've done that with have been excited to do just that. Most of the people I've roleplayed want to do well, so I just try to empower them to do just that. The person from that scenario actually made a pretty good bio in the end - it is just sometimes, which I think also holds true for posts - people can get lost in their own thoughts, either from pressure of writing something they feel is sufficient, pressure from getting a post out quick enough, or just overeagerness. All things that can be easily guided in the instances it happens.

Ultimately, it is a GMs responsibility to be providing commentary as they are the ones whose standards matter in the thread. You can offer advice as a player, but it generally should be advice someone solicited. If it isn't, you better be prepared to have it interpreted poorly unless you are some kind of criticism savant.

[POOHEAD189]

My thoughts

Criticism is fine and welcome, as long as it's tactful. I realize that GM's set their RP's to a certain standard, and it must be upheld for the benefit of all. I'm going to go ahead and say that while I am confident in my posting skills, I often times have difficulty filling out huge character sheets in the way the GM's foresee a character to their liking, mostly because I don't know their style, or the RP's tone. I'm more of an author and I view things that way, and I write stories with characters in mind, not written down, so sometimes I'm not the best at sheets.

Now, if I get a PM or a message from a GM that goes "Hi, I read your characters. A few things. I need this, this, and this done, and I am curious on this. Might want to flesh it out and switch this around." I'll be glad to help out. Utterly glad.

But if they use words like "I think the problem with your character is," or "this has led me to believe you're not taking this seriously" when, quite honestly, there are clearly well written paragraphs, its taken days to send this in, and I'm in the fukken advanced section and have been in 3 different RP's with you who are questioning me already,...implying that my work was worthy of a "you have to be kidding."

Well...I'll certainly feel like:

Hider

It's all about how you say it. It would be an extremely hard task for me not to go "maybe you should look again." Which, quite frankly, is cordial when the implication of what you just said reduced my, or anyone's work, into a joke.

And also, if you give criticism, you should be able to receive it as well. Like if we are in a Dragonball Z RP and you question a bit of backstory, and I go "well if you look in volume 8, this clearly is here" and you don't like me being, well, correct...

Simply put, people should be open and welcome to criticism, as long as those who criticize are nice, and willing to discuss things. Though honestly, I'm such a softy I'll probably go "yes sir, yes ma'am" regardless. I hate the idea of hurting someone's feelings over an RP, whether I am in the right or wrong. Usually it's not worth it, and it's a sin of pride to even be that way most of the time.

[BrokenPromise]

Posting a "critique" in the OOC is definitely a surefire way to cause drama, if not make someone abandon the RP entirely. I witnessed someone telling someone to "use the enter key," and 3 other players plus the GM parroted this advice back to them. Needless to say, they left the RP they were in. Shortly afterwards, I noticed other players started to become self conscious of their writing to the point where they left, or found fault with the GM's lofty writing expectations. Nobody wants to endure public humiliation.

My boss's motto about employees is that you never want to let them know you are dissatisfied with them. And I think a GM should behave the same way with his fellow players. I'm very fortunate in that the RP I run is filled with writers who meet or exceed my criteria. Telling people how to improve their writing is not something I feel comfortable with doing. It would be one thing if I was on friendly terms with them. But some of these people I don't know especially well, and I'd hate to drive them away on account of them parroting other posts too much.

If a player or players have a problem with a particular user's writing, they should talk to the GM about it. And if the GM feels it is necessary, they can address it. Sometimes I know I should do something, but don't because I think I'm alone in the decision.

And ditto to what Pugbutter and Odin said. there are far too many assholes and people with sensitive feelings to allow everyone to openly critique. This is something that, when it needs to be addressed, should be done via PM by a GM.