Brovo said
Here I'll summarize it for you: People said things and made arguments because they cared about the subject.
Uhhh... Look at ShonHarris' post. That goes beyond caring to, "Fake Gamer Girls Killed My Mom."
Turtlicious
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Uhhh... Look at ShonHarris' post. That goes beyond caring to, "Fake Gamer Girls Killed My Mom."
Turtlicious said
Uhhh... Look at ShonHarris' post. That goes beyond caring to, "Fake Gamer Girls Killed My Mom."
... Yeah you didn't read anything and formulated an opinion already. Unsurprising.
Hunter of Shadows Vereor Nox
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I'm sure some people have said this already, but men are sexist in general anyways being a geek has nothing to do with it
Nevis The Aether Swordsman
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I don't usually post in stuff like this as I'm often just wasting my time and the only result is that I'm being around hostile people; they're opinionated powder kegs. There's some reasonable questions here, though, and some reasonable points.
There's an issue with the entire premise of this thread, though, in that it takes the entire subject out of context; sexism in video games and 'geek' subculture is part of cultural sexism and general, and there will be elements missing without looking at it and understanding it in that full context. There are plenty of references and examples that relate to that in this thread-I think it's incomplete, though.
On the apparently less loaded and shorter issue-'genuine' versus 'false' gamers. What it really comes down to is what the person is there for and enjoying about it. First there are 'posers' or 'casuals', someone who pretends to be interested or gets involved at only the most shallow level and is really just doing it for the appearance or running with the hype train. They're not there because they actually care about the game. People who play the game as escapism, rather than because they actually like it, actually fall in here in terms of intent, though to what level they're involved in the medium varies.. Then there are 'wannabees', who see those who really do care about the game and seek to be them, yet still lack the genuine interest and willingness. Then there are the 'genuine' players who genuinely care about the medium they're involved in and engage in it willingly and voluntarily. Then there are the ''hardcore', those who really get into it way beyond just liking it (compare a professional athlete to a hobbyist, for example). Then there are elitists, those who are into the game at either 'genuine' or 'hardcore' levels and look down on everyone else as not genuine-even those that are genuine, just because they're not hardcore.
Another issue is the very meaning of the words 'geek' and 'nerd'-which have been stolen and bastardized a bit. Here's an article on this. Nerd, by its very nature, means someone who's into something and overbearing about it to the point of obnoxiousness and harmful to their own social connection. Also, as the mediums they have and ostracized for loving become 'trendy', those same things they care so much about are then mutated to cater to a different crowd-often the 'poser' one, meaning they very thing they enjoyed and made has now been stolen from them, and they're still ostracized and not taken seriously.
No, they do not get all fantasy, science-y and so on media and culture to themselves; they have been abused, though. Similar is the issue with women entering male-oriented games.
Now, as for the gender issue... let me start with this.
That is a complete lie. Sexism never goes one way; a person cannot be sexist towards one gender and not the other.
Sexism is discrimination based on gender. Discrimination is behavior taken in response to a person bearing a certain quality or qualities that you have an opinion on-that is, being and/or doing something that you want them to not be and/or do, /and/or not being and/or doing what you do want them to be and/or do. Men 'discriminate' against women because certain qualities violate what they believe and want woman to do and/or be (or not do and/or be). What's less often looked at is that if those men are assigning a gender role to those women, they must also assign a gender role to men. For every discriminatory issue you'll find of men towards women, you'll find the same of men towards men-and women towards men and women towards other women.
Feminists and media currently often bring up the issue of women dressing in clothing that is often perceived as masculine; yet how much attention is given to males dressing in supposedly 'feminine' clothing? If a male wears anything with a hem more than an inch or so past his groin (at a generous best), he's accused of homosexuality, being 'a pussy' and so on.
Women often don't get paid as much. On the other hand, men are penalized more for not achieving.
Abuse is a horrendous sexist act if it's male on female. It's comedy or even 'sexy' if it's female on male.
If a guy approaches a female too hard, he'll get a restraining order. If a girl approaches a guy too hard, people will be jealous of his stalker.
When an approach by a fat woman is refused by a man, he's thought of as shallow and judgmental. When a woman refuses a man because he's short, the guy is thought of as a loser.
Women are ostracized from video games, to some degree sports and others. Men aren't 'allowed' to play with dolls, acting/dressing up, jewelry, many arts and crafts such as creating clothing, and so on.
And, of note to the quote I posted above-if a woman cries or is distraught, it's an expression of tender emotion. If a male cries for anything less than the most extreme circumstances, he's berated and called pathetic. Men's issues often don't up as much because part of the very nature of men's particular issues in this matter is that he can't talk about it. For males, being open is portrayed as being vulnerable and weak-and just as much by women as from other men. Women are just as hard-if not more so-on men about being 'strong' in general.
Brene Brown covers touches on this a bit in this video. Skip to 15:00 to go immediately to it.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0)
On the note of gender-based curse words-those are sexist, and to both genders. They all imply something about what each gender is an isn't as an insult-that is, insult based on violating gender roles, which also implies that the trait is bad, meaning that it insults one gender for having that trait and the other for not having it.
As for gamer girls specifically-aside from their frequent sexism (and the degree of theft of the medium by casuals in general), this does baffle me a bit. I previously wished there were more girls. Males approaching females in an amorous sense in games is also not an issue in and of itself (though he can be sexist about it). I myself often jump to this when I find a girl involved in the same medium because she's a girl who not only apparently accepts the same medium I'm interested, she's even into it herself. It's an immediate and preexisting connection; I already know we have something in common, and it's something we can share and enjoy together. To call that sexist, by the same logic, calls any male approaching any female with an amorous agenda over any sort of connection is sexist-meaning that romance as a whole is sexist.
On the note of similar/different treatment-this holds some, minor ground. There are variations between male and female and other distinctions, thus some standards have to vary. As said previously by others, though, these tend to be minute in humans and only apply when relevant, and it bears no weight in altering the respect that we give others.
There's an issue with the entire premise of this thread, though, in that it takes the entire subject out of context; sexism in video games and 'geek' subculture is part of cultural sexism and general, and there will be elements missing without looking at it and understanding it in that full context. There are plenty of references and examples that relate to that in this thread-I think it's incomplete, though.
On the apparently less loaded and shorter issue-'genuine' versus 'false' gamers. What it really comes down to is what the person is there for and enjoying about it. First there are 'posers' or 'casuals', someone who pretends to be interested or gets involved at only the most shallow level and is really just doing it for the appearance or running with the hype train. They're not there because they actually care about the game. People who play the game as escapism, rather than because they actually like it, actually fall in here in terms of intent, though to what level they're involved in the medium varies.. Then there are 'wannabees', who see those who really do care about the game and seek to be them, yet still lack the genuine interest and willingness. Then there are the 'genuine' players who genuinely care about the medium they're involved in and engage in it willingly and voluntarily. Then there are the ''hardcore', those who really get into it way beyond just liking it (compare a professional athlete to a hobbyist, for example). Then there are elitists, those who are into the game at either 'genuine' or 'hardcore' levels and look down on everyone else as not genuine-even those that are genuine, just because they're not hardcore.
Another issue is the very meaning of the words 'geek' and 'nerd'-which have been stolen and bastardized a bit. Here's an article on this. Nerd, by its very nature, means someone who's into something and overbearing about it to the point of obnoxiousness and harmful to their own social connection. Also, as the mediums they have and ostracized for loving become 'trendy', those same things they care so much about are then mutated to cater to a different crowd-often the 'poser' one, meaning they very thing they enjoyed and made has now been stolen from them, and they're still ostracized and not taken seriously.
No, they do not get all fantasy, science-y and so on media and culture to themselves; they have been abused, though. Similar is the issue with women entering male-oriented games.
Now, as for the gender issue... let me start with this.
thinkertron2000 said
"Dick" does not equal to any of those words, largely because men aren't as as maligned as women are, and "bitch" as an insult for men is still sexist against women. When you call a man a "bitch", what you means is that he's like a woman, submissive and incompetent.hahahahaHAHAHAH! I love guys like this, people who've never actually spoken to a feminist, nor read any feminist articles. You're adorable. Look, one of the biggest tenants of feminism is getting rid of gender rolls, and a patriarchal* society, both of which certainly hurt women, but they hurt men as well. It's because of gender rolls that women get the children in divorces more often (well, that and a higher amount of male abusers than female), it's because of a patriarchal society that male victim rape is so often ignored (also the same reason that female victim rape is ignored).Do you want to know why feminists rarely talk about male problems? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER OF THEM THAN FEMALE PROBLEMS. It's not that hard you guys.
That is a complete lie. Sexism never goes one way; a person cannot be sexist towards one gender and not the other.
Sexism is discrimination based on gender. Discrimination is behavior taken in response to a person bearing a certain quality or qualities that you have an opinion on-that is, being and/or doing something that you want them to not be and/or do, /and/or not being and/or doing what you do want them to be and/or do. Men 'discriminate' against women because certain qualities violate what they believe and want woman to do and/or be (or not do and/or be). What's less often looked at is that if those men are assigning a gender role to those women, they must also assign a gender role to men. For every discriminatory issue you'll find of men towards women, you'll find the same of men towards men-and women towards men and women towards other women.
Feminists and media currently often bring up the issue of women dressing in clothing that is often perceived as masculine; yet how much attention is given to males dressing in supposedly 'feminine' clothing? If a male wears anything with a hem more than an inch or so past his groin (at a generous best), he's accused of homosexuality, being 'a pussy' and so on.
Women often don't get paid as much. On the other hand, men are penalized more for not achieving.
Abuse is a horrendous sexist act if it's male on female. It's comedy or even 'sexy' if it's female on male.
If a guy approaches a female too hard, he'll get a restraining order. If a girl approaches a guy too hard, people will be jealous of his stalker.
When an approach by a fat woman is refused by a man, he's thought of as shallow and judgmental. When a woman refuses a man because he's short, the guy is thought of as a loser.
Women are ostracized from video games, to some degree sports and others. Men aren't 'allowed' to play with dolls, acting/dressing up, jewelry, many arts and crafts such as creating clothing, and so on.
And, of note to the quote I posted above-if a woman cries or is distraught, it's an expression of tender emotion. If a male cries for anything less than the most extreme circumstances, he's berated and called pathetic. Men's issues often don't up as much because part of the very nature of men's particular issues in this matter is that he can't talk about it. For males, being open is portrayed as being vulnerable and weak-and just as much by women as from other men. Women are just as hard-if not more so-on men about being 'strong' in general.
Brene Brown covers touches on this a bit in this video. Skip to 15:00 to go immediately to it.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0)
On the note of gender-based curse words-those are sexist, and to both genders. They all imply something about what each gender is an isn't as an insult-that is, insult based on violating gender roles, which also implies that the trait is bad, meaning that it insults one gender for having that trait and the other for not having it.
As for gamer girls specifically-aside from their frequent sexism (and the degree of theft of the medium by casuals in general), this does baffle me a bit. I previously wished there were more girls. Males approaching females in an amorous sense in games is also not an issue in and of itself (though he can be sexist about it). I myself often jump to this when I find a girl involved in the same medium because she's a girl who not only apparently accepts the same medium I'm interested, she's even into it herself. It's an immediate and preexisting connection; I already know we have something in common, and it's something we can share and enjoy together. To call that sexist, by the same logic, calls any male approaching any female with an amorous agenda over any sort of connection is sexist-meaning that romance as a whole is sexist.
On the note of similar/different treatment-this holds some, minor ground. There are variations between male and female and other distinctions, thus some standards have to vary. As said previously by others, though, these tend to be minute in humans and only apply when relevant, and it bears no weight in altering the respect that we give others.
Dervish Let's get volatile
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I always found it somewhat amusing that the sexist nerds who rally against women participating in their "thing" are usually the ones drooling over giant breasted cartoons in chainmail bikinis.
To clarify, they're driving off real women while idolizing fake ones. It's as bad as the one kid in my boot camp who claimed to prefer hentai to a real girlfriend. It's pretty sad.
And then they complain when they can't get girlfriends. Fucking awesome.
To clarify, they're driving off real women while idolizing fake ones. It's as bad as the one kid in my boot camp who claimed to prefer hentai to a real girlfriend. It's pretty sad.
And then they complain when they can't get girlfriends. Fucking awesome.
Darog the Badger God Kawaii on the streets Senpai in the sheets
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Kawaii on the streets Senpai in the sheets
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Dervish said
I always found it somewhat amusing that the sexist nerds who rally against women participating in their "thing" are usually the ones drooling over giant breadted cartoons in chainmail bikinis. To clarify, they're driving off real women while idolizing fake ones. It's as bad as the one kid in my boot camp who claimed to prefer hentai to a real girlfriend. It's pretty sad.And then they complain when they can't get girlfriends. Fucking awesome.
There's something gloriously sad about that mindset.
And I'm dying of laughter because of it.
Gwazi Magnum
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Blondie said
I think it's pretty much all about self-image, jealousy and sexual frustration.It's pretty much agreed upon that this nerd hate comes primarily (if not entirely) from men. I'll just be blunt. I assume a guy who sees a "fake geek girl" and lashes out over it is only because he finds the whole situation unfair. I figure he's thinking "you like comics and games? I'm OBSESSED with comics and games. You should be impressed. Why is it that you like the THINGS I like but not ME specifically?"
Obviously its majority from men when its a field thats male dominated where females is something new. But as others said culture in general has a ton of things men get discriminated in.
Also when it comes to sexism is geek culture I don't think its anger for not being liked. But rather a natural defense mechanism having probably been bullied, teased and mocked by girls before. Or used to be hurt/ignored in favor of the guy who was probably dropped on the head as a baby and is ab obvious total and abusive asshole but happens to be good at throwing a football.
Turtlicious said
I don't?If you want to play DnD with me make a sheet, who cares why you want to do it.e: I'm not reading all of those paragraphs, because I have a job and a girlfriend Jesus people, it's like no-one taught you about brevity.
We get it. You have a Girlfriend, congrats. But that doesn't mean you can't be passionate about a topic, like to talk a lot about it or be willing to read on it.
Even when I had GF I commonly got in talks like this. So being both is possible.
Brovo said
Erm... No. Definitely not jealousy and sexual frustration. Has a lot more to do with social outcasts traditionally ignored by women and treated poorly by women now watching women enter their one "safety zone". Is it still immature as shit? Damns right. Is it counterproductive? Damns right.Is it without point? No. There is a point. It's just not a very good one.Here I'll summarize it for you: People said things and made arguments because they cared about the subject.
You're right, but I think I'm right too.
Turtlicious
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Brovo said
... Yeah you didn't read anything and formulated an opinion already. Unsurprising.
I... said that.
Like that's what I said, do you think everyone came into this without an opinion? Do you think ShonHarris wrote that whole beast of a post and it summed up to, "But I don't know, maybe you guys are right." Everyone in this sub-forum is spinning their wheels even though neither can convince the other side of anything, they just want to stroke their dicks and see how much BS they can throw into the ether lol.
Gwazi Magnum
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Turtlicious said
I... said that.Like that's what I said, do you think everyone came into this without an opinion? Do you think ShonHarris wrote that whole beast of a post and it summed up to, "But I don't know, maybe you guys are right." Everyone in this sub-forum is spinning their wheels even though neither can convince the other side of anything, they just want to stroke their dicks and see how much BS they can throw into the ether lol.
No. That's spam :P
Yes people here come in with opinions and views. But we have these discussions to keep exposing ourselves to other views, gain new information and expand our horizon.
To roughly quote Neil deGrasse Tyson from Cosmos "There is no shame in admitting to not knowing something. The only shame is in claiming to know everything".
Turtlicious
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Yes people here come in with opinions and views. But we have these discussions to keep exposing ourselves to other views, gain new information and expand our horizon.
Well that and trying to get each other banned lol.
To roughly quote myself, "Bullshit."
Gwazi Magnum
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Turtlicious said
Well that and trying to get each other banned lol. To roughly quote myself, "Bullshit."
That was a small amount, and none of them came to the new Guild anyways.
With the vast majority people are treated and respected according how good an argument they can make so it leads to a pretty civil and mature group. While in spam may someone be liked, disliked etc is totally dependent on the mood of the people when first impressions are made and if the person is "cool" or "fun" enough to not burst their bubbles.
Turtlicious
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Magic Magnum said
That was a small amount, and none of them came to the new Guild anyways.
With the vast majority people are treated and respected according how good an argument they can make so it leads to a pretty civil and mature group. While in spam may someone be liked, disliked etc is totally dependent on the mood of the people when first impressions are made and if the person is "cool" or "fun" enough to not burst their bubbles.
This is painfully untrue on multiple levels. I've never seen someone "change their mind" or "change their position" in OT, I've only seen them move the goal posts, concede, or just write paragraph upon paragraph changing the issue as much as possible so that they won't be seen as wrong. Also, the posters probably came back under new names. If I had to guess, you're not fond of spam because no-one "has" to engage you on the same level, and higher effort tends to be mocked. If ShonHarris put his post in spam, everyone would tell him the truth. It was way too long for people to really read. His writing isn't so engaging he can expect me to read an article every time he posts. (I'm singling out Shon but many other posters do this as well.)
Dervish Let's get volatile
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Turtlicious said
This is painfully untrue on multiple levels. I've never seen someone "change their mind" or "change their position" in OT, I've only seen them move the goal posts, concede, or just write paragraph upon paragraph changing the issue as much as possible so that they won't be seen as wrong. Also, the posters probably came back under new names. If I had to guess, you're not fond of spam because no-one "has" to engage you on the same level, and higher effort tends to be mocked. If ShonHarris put his post in spam, everyone would tell him the truth. It was way too long for people to really read. His writing isn't so engaging he can expect me to read an article every time he posts. (I'm singling out Shon but many other posters do this as well.)
This is why I largely don't get involved with "debates" on an online forum. People care less about the truth and an exchange of ideas as opposed to being "right."
Hunter of Shadows said
I'm sure some people have said this already, but men are sexist in general being a geek has nothing to do with it
... What? Dude, that's a pretty sexist statement right there.
@Nevis: You nailed it. Gold star. Well done. Thanks for pointing out that it's a grey issue, not black and white. Wish more people held that opinion.
Dervish said
I always found it somewhat amusing that the sexist nerds who rally against women participating in their "thing" are usually the ones drooling over giant breasted cartoons in chainmail bikinis. To clarify, they're driving off real women while idolizing fake ones. It's as bad as the one kid in my boot camp who claimed to prefer hentai to a real girlfriend. It's pretty sad.And then they complain when they can't get girlfriends. Fucking awesome.
I always found it equally amusing when a woman demands to be considered attractive for what she is--fat, or otherwise--then usually turns right around and applies an unrealistic set of standards upon men to qualify for dating. Then wonders why they're forever alone with three cats.
To clarify: Sexual standards does not always equate to sexism. A guy may find big breasted women in chainmail bikinis attractive and not be a sexist in the same manner that a woman may not want to date a guy who is short or obese. Or a bigot. This is just how humans work.
If anything I'd say it's not so much a hatred of women in your example as it is a case of Peter Pan syndrome--not being able to grow up past their fantasies and escapisms and attacking anything that might threaten that, female, authority figure, or otherwise. They also tend to be the same kind of rabid fans you might find obsessing over sports, or fashion, or god knows what other thing we can obsess over in groups. You always have zealous extremists who attack anything that might threaten the image. That's more of a problem with extremism than it is specifically sexism, sexism in this case is just the byproduct of a flawed design.
Darog the Badger God said
There's something gloriously sad about that mindset.And I'm dying of laughter because of it.
It's hard not to look at a train going off the rails, isn't it?
Blondie said
You're right, but I think I'm right too.
Well then all good.
Turtlicious said
I... said that.Like that's what I said, do you think everyone came into this without an opinion? Do you think ShonHarris wrote that whole beast of a post and it summed up to, "But I don't know, maybe you guys are right." Everyone in this sub-forum is spinning their wheels even though neither can convince the other side of anything, they just want to stroke their dicks and see how much BS they can throw into the ether lol.
I know you did. Just confirming that you said that.
Of course not. Where did I say that? Everyone has an opinion. Shon Harris wrote that whole beast of a post because that's how he views the issue, and he's passionate about it. That, and he likes to write long paragraphs, to go into great detail about his beliefs. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, really.
I love how you seem to hate this section, yet posted in here multiple times and in other OT threads just to stir shit. Please stop.
Turtlicious said
Well that and trying to get each other banned lol. To roughly quote myself, "Bullshit."
I haven't seen anyone here try to get each other banned. We have disagreements and occasionally someone throws a tantrum--that happens in discussion areas, especially when shit that people get passionate about gets brought up, but the shit disturbers don't tend to last long here. They just get chewed up and then they throw themselves out in a tizzy. It's rather amusing actually.
Then again, to nobody's surprise, you're massively over-generalizing, trolling, and bullying someone. Why? Because you have nothing better to do, I suppose, then try to irritate everyone here for... Reasons.
I still don't understand how you got unbanned.
Turtlicious said This is painfully untrue on multiple levels. I've never seen someone "change their mind" or "change their position" in OT, I've only seen them move the goal posts, concede, or just write paragraph upon paragraph changing the issue as much as possible so that they won't be seen as wrong.
I've seen people change their opinions here. Usually it's from thread to thread that you notice the difference of opinion: The next time the same topic comes up, some people have changed, some haven't. I digress though, usually threads pop up in OT to be talked about and discussed. Whether or not someone changes their mind afterwards is irrelevant.
Turtlicious said Also, the posters probably came back under new names. If I had to guess, you're not fond of spam because no-one "has" to engage you on the same level, and higher effort tends to be mocked.
Mocking intellectualism and praising meme-based stupidity and reposts. Yes. This is definitely a positive element of the spam community. One so positive that even Jorick hardly goes there anymore.
Turtlicious said If ShonHarris put his post in spam, everyone would tell him the truth.
No, they'd mock him and belittle him because he wrote something that couldn't be understood in five seconds. Just as you are doing now. Also, why are you even bothering to compare spam to OT? They service different functions and different communities. An OT post in spam would be too long. A spam post in OT would be too short and immature.
I'm sure you had a point somewhere, it was just lost in that whole spammy, belittling, elitist attitude of yours. :)
Turtlicious said It was way too long for people to really read. His writing isn't so engaging he can expect me to read an article every time he posts. (I'm singling out Shon but many other posters do this as well.)
You? Single someone out? No. Never.
Seriously if you dislike OT so much and hold such low opinions of them, just go back to spam. It's not like anyone is actually asking you to be here and you obviously don't like it here. x)
Jorick Magnificent Bastard
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Hunter of Shadows said I'm sure some people have said this already, but men are sexist in general anyways being a geek has nothing to do with it
You must be a man then, because that was pretty sexist.
Seriously though, sexism is rampant in both genders. It's a product of human sexual dimorphism plus people generally being assholes, and women are not immune from either of those things.
Nevis said There's an issue with the entire premise of this thread, though, in that it takes the entire subject out of context; sexism in video games and 'geek' subculture is part of cultural sexism and general, and there will be elements missing without looking at it and understanding it in that full context. There are plenty of references and examples that relate to that in this thread-I think it's incomplete, though.
That's a good point, and I think it's one a lot of people could benefit from acknowledging. Sexism in any subculture is a part of the larger whole, so compartmentalizing them as separate entities will give some rather inaccurate impressions about what's going on.
Brovo said Mocking intellectualism and praising meme-based stupidity and reposts. Yes. This is definitely a positive element of the spam community. One so positive that even Jorick hardly goes there anymore.
Well, to be fair to Spam, that's not the reason I've strayed away from the section. I always was something of an oddity among Spam though, since I often posted paragraphs where others posted single lines. However, I am capable of brevity when it comes to silliness and stupidity, so I managed to blend in sometimes.
Turt's nonsense and those responding to him are getting off topic though, so everyone should probably do the smart thing and not bother responding to any more of his shit stirring here in the thread.
Hunter of Shadows Vereor Nox
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... What? Dude, that's a pretty sexist statement right there.
No it's not, it's a statement of fact, 'in general' refers to the fact that lots of men in this world are sexist irrespective of whether or not they're geeks or whatever
Nevis The Aether Swordsman
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Hunter of Shadows said
No it's not, it's a statement of fact, 'in general' refers to the fact that lots of men in this world are sexist irrespective of whether or not they're geeks or whatever
No more than women are.
Also, Dark Souls (1) is my favorite video game to date.
Hunter of Shadows Vereor Nox
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No more than women are.
I'm not arguing that point, I'm just pointing out that Seuss was like 'yeah lots of gamer guys are sexist and treat gamer girls like shit'
And so I was pointing out that lots of men are sexist and treat girls like shit regardless of whether they're geeks or not
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