What went wrong with Expanding Horizons?

[Mao Mao]

NOTE: I don't mean any disrespect to the creators of Expanding Horizons. It is important to understand why it failed so history doesn't repeat for Star Wars Persistent World.

As the title says, what went wrong with the first attempt at a Persistent World? As a mod of the upcoming SW PW, I want to understand why EH lost so much interest so we don't repeat the same mistakes. I asked the same question earlier on the first thread in the PW and got some interesting answers. But, I want to hear other peoples' thoughts especially the ones that were in EH as either player or GM.

[Zarkun]

Lack of engagement between players. A couple of them I myself RP'd with used it briefly as a stepping stone to find a comfort zone for writing and then left.

[BrokenPromise]

I don't have a lot of stuff to add that pugbutter didn't already cover in the gif thread. My biggest problem was that there was that there was too much freedom. You had joke characters and serious characters, anime characters and semi-realism characters, strong characters and weak characters, all scattered across three different planets. The fact that the new PW is based on star wars will clear up most of these problems. Just because everyone knows what star wars is doesn't mean everyone has the same ideas about it. In the movies, the force is a clearly defines thing that has powerful, though limited uses. Though in videogames it seems like the force has a great number more abilities. What the force can and can't do still needs to be defines, even in a pre-established setting like star wars. Another problem was that there was very little lore to go on in EW. Something about multiverses and shit. Hopefully there will be enough going on that people who don't live and breathe star wars will be able to get a handle on what's going on. Not everyone has seen all the movies/read all the books/played all the games.

But to summarize, too much player freedom and a lack of anything to clearly define the world had me quickly retreating to the group RP part of the forum.

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

As an individual who did a sizable portion of the framework that ultimately went all unused, here are some takeaways of importance from my perspective.

The first is, is that the public has no idea what it wants. If you tell them something as a designer and they have an issue with it as players, take their input but do not feel obligated to go with it. A massive failure was that Expanding Horizons caved to the pressure of demands. People wanting it done sooner, topics up faster, rules rewritten their specific way, on and on. Have your plan with the other designers and members of the section staff, unify that plan internally, and go with it; all of you, even if you personally disagree. Making endless concessions will never work and someone will always be dissatisfied.

What would be next in the second is under no circumstances make character creation flexible. This was mostly an issue with Expanding Horizons because of the fact it was intended to work for free to advanced players and characters of any kind. The leniency was too lenient and players quickly, as they are want to, began developing characters who were specifically made to be better than those ones before. This comes down to having good rules and just employing them, as well as having at least two approving officials for the character sheets. Continued, if a player has an issue with it, that is their issue, not your own. Do not make a habit of employing special exceptions; if a character is too overpowered, deny it without second guessing until it is change. That creep of power increase will destroy any fantasy that gives the semblance of balance.

Third I would state is to have all of the ground work done before the threads open. Unlike Expanding Horizons with a fandom this is far easier, there are entire wikis, movies, books, and the like available. Consolidate those with easy to access links, have a story and plot written out - as in, write the actual overarching plot and implement it from the start and move it along, with or without the players - and have a universal, standardized format for everything and sufficiently pinned and annotated threads. Official posts should look identical across those posting, no matter the section staff member, so players can understand them efficiently. A further recommendation is try to limit the number of starting locations and events so people have a reason to begin interacting with one another.

The fourth and last I would say is to be proactive, in that the threads need the the section staff to actively participate with their own characters and the obvious of those who are non-player characters. They must be reliable, not prone to disappearance or slack, and be consistently active in and out of the game within its section. If someone does disappear, find a comparable or better replacement as soon as possible until they return, at which point the section staff can decide what to do. Do not accept the "They are busy, they will be back soon!" argument.

This all in mind I have touched on what sank the original concept to the dark depths a few times in the past but as a fandom persistent world, many of those issues are resolved by themselves. That leaves these suggestions really as the best I can offer. All in all, best of luck in your endeavors and those participating in the section, @Star Lord.

[Reno Cascade]

Player freedom works when there's strong leadership present to guide them. I've been part of interconnected games since around 2001, and the key is putting a focus on group/faction-based activities led by experienced players who both know what they're doing and have the time and patience to keep the proverbial ball rolling.

[Carlyle]

I think this topic is by now beating a dead horse, but this thread and this one may be of use. Hell, there's probably a few other ones out there discussing EH that I missed since everyone was discussing it.

Anyway, I do think that EH failed for several reasons. The majority of the mod team overseeing it seemed to have literally vanished off the face of the Earth, and you had to jump through so many damned hoops just to apply for a CS from gauging the majority of your sheet by numbers/power level to having multiple people approve your CS even though there was hardly anyone to even approve of them.

Additionally, EH tried to be too much at once with smashing every possible setting/genre together to give people freedom to RP what they wanted within the setting, which is nice on paper, but ultimately leaves--in my honest opinion--no true focus to the setting, especially a setting without any overall plot outside the threads themselves until they, inevitably, had died too.

What I'm trying to say is that EH was hardly an example of a PW. For instance, the United Federation of Planets, a group ran by the staff of EH, was supposed to be the largest superpower in the galaxy, but it didn't have much impact on the setting despite being so powerful. With everyone off doing their own thing in what lore was available, nothing really changed in the setting. Castles didn't change hands in a war on Ecetopia, manhunts to end the reign of a bloodthirsty gang hooked on some drug on Frixion Prime never happened, etc.

Things didn't really change within the setting; it more or less stayed the same even after everyone grew bored of EH. A PW is nothing if events don't actually affect the setting outside individual roleplays.

[Realmatic]

I've been part of a full-freedom multiverse RP for several years now. Although I cannot speak specifically to PW's situation, I can explain what keeps us all consistently invested, even though interest rises and falls.

TL;DR: We made the whole thing ourselves, becoming invested in it and developing a sense of responsibility. It is this sense of responsibility that holds us together through ups and downs. Self-control holds the RP together and self-starting distributes the burden of plot and world development across the whole group.

---

Investment: Myriad Reality was collaborative in all respects—everyone created important aspects of the multiverse on their own, getting some direction from the wiser members of the group but with free rein on their creativity. This occurred organically. As we filled the world with more and more of our brainchildren, MR became something we could not let go of, at least in spirit. As we became invested in "our place", we became responsible for it, too, so even when business and humdrum pulled us away, we always came back for more, powering through disinterest because MR was important to us.

Responsibility: Creating and upholding a free-form multiverse required significant self-control and self-starting. With no GMs, one asks, how do you prevent violations and contradictions? How does anybody get going in a story if there's nobody to lead it?

The former required two things: common courtesy and wisdom. We all gave each other room to shine and tried to be sensible in the way we wrote so we wouldn't push anybody out. We work things out OOC to prevent such contradictions, because we've already designed a framework

The latter required a self-starting spirit. I have observed, over time, that some RPers would rather follow a GM's plot like sheep. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but we all have a desire for "easy entertainment" and if that desire is funnelled into an RP then it leads to passivity and lack of effort. In a free world, the more people acting like this, the more burden is placed on the few that love starting things. In Myriad Reality, we all start things and finish them—as much as we enjoy playing within the plots of others, we also create our own and draw everyone in. Nobody is passive for long. We wouldn't enjoy it, anyway.

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It is not immediately obvious to me how to apply these principles to a roleplay with GMs and stricter control. My kneejerk reaction is that the solid framework of your creation and of the Star Wars franchise will help prevent contradictions. But it will also heavily restrict the freedom that makes collaborative worlds so magical and enticing. If I am not mistaken, it will feel more like a normal (but bigger) roleplay than a collaborative community. The major burden will be on the GMs, not on the people, and this could be very draining, especially as interest fluctuates.

I shy away from providing any more advice because I have never GMed a roleplay in my life. But the last paragraph is just what seems most sensible to me, drawn from my experiences.

[Hero]

I feel like one factor was the fact that the PW was an original world and not a canon one. I remember peeking into it and not really understanding what was going on, kinda shrugging and going about my merry way. Star Wars, on the other hand, has an established universe and is on a grand enough scale, so at the very least it won't fall into that same trap.

[Delta44]

I don't think an overarching plot is necessary, per-say, however making sure there are things that are happening, and that those things can affect most of the players involved, is crucial. Instead of having a traditional plot where a group of heroes save the universe (yadda yadda), we need groups of heroes doing what they themselves want to do. Thankfully Star Wars helps with this considerably, as there are many existing factions which can help players interact, namely the Jedi, Sith, and Bounty Hunters.
Said groups can have an overarching goal. I imagine Sith vs Jedi being a good start, as an intergalactic war is a surefire way to make sure something is happening most of the time. That's not to say there can't be downtime, but it means both the players and the moderators can create their own scenarios with relative ease and get other people interested. So a group of Jedi might be taking a mission on Planet X, another on Planet Y. The Sith may also have a group on Planet Y, but also on Planet Z. Depending on what these groups want out of the experience, they can be shifted around to be grouped or isolated. Maybe two groups want to do combat, they can both go to Planet Y. Another group wants to do an assassination mission, but is open to interaction with other players, so they can also be put on Planet Y.

Of course this will take a lot of organisational skill to run, but having multiple reliable mods can help ease that burden. Apparently disappearing mods was quite problematic for Expanding Horizons, so it'll be a good idea to make sure the current group is ready in advance. I'd recommend either a dedicated posting time (once a week?), or have both the players and mods put a tl;dr paragraph at the bottom detailing their post, so people with less time can focus on writing rather than reading. I prefer this second option, personally, because it'll mean the flow of the RP can continue and new players won't have to read through pages and pages of text just to get caught up. I'd also recommend creating a "database" thread of sorts, detailing everything that has happened in the RP so people can catch up when they need to. This will be much more important for a Star Wars persistent world, because there will be things that happen which can drastically alter the universe. I imagine a dedicated mod taking this position, and individual moderators PMing them the details of, for example, a week's worth of posts, which they then re-write in an order which makes sense.

Lastly, for the love of god, players need to understand that they will be taking their narrative into their own hands. This is something that confused me in Expanding Horizons when I attempted to join, and I'm sure it made others a little confused, too. The groups that form need to understand they'll be working together to make a story, and should voice their opinions on what they want so nothing collapses halfway through. Not too sure if this was a problem for the groups in EH, but as someone who wanted something specific out of the experience, I left because I didn't speak up and ask around or create my own thread. Players need to know they're all adopting a semi-GM role here, and sometimes they'll have to write for themselves, unless they gain the interest of others.

But yeah, that's basically it. Maybe try to streamline the CS too; I liked the power system attempting to create balance, but it was... big. Expansive lore can create balance all on its own, so as long as everyone is on the same page. Give a hard limit on power. If the groups can interact on top of this, then we should be golden.

[Zarkun]

I would like to point out that the beauty within SW, which I think has been pointed out already, is that it's a big enough existing universe, and seeing as you guys went Old Republic, I can safely, though not necessarily correctly, assume that we'll see Legends material used, to provide endless opportunities. Just...give us some kind of end goal it all ties into, or at least make us think there is one. Give us direction, because another issue with EH was that there was no direction, we wrote to write it seemed.

[PrinceAlexus]

Outside perspective.

Streamline...

Your CS system was over complicated, required complicated levels and all. Then you had to approve things and more besides. Avoid that.

Over complicated ideas, can look all fancy but then there hard to use.

Keep it simpler for lower level charceters.
If you wnat more high levels, then add the extra steps.

A fleet comandor might upset thr balence when one trainee Jedi, bounty hunter or so is not.

[Mixtape Ghost N]

Everything.

[Arawak]

(I know I haven't really been around for like, ages but I remember this)

I agree a lot with the directionless aspects. I can't say I didn't contribute to that sense because I was told I had a vast sum of space and places when it started and so decided that meant I could use a vast sum of space for some fictional faction. I thought initially there would have been more cooperation in the story telling aspects in the sense that the GMs would build some story arc with the factions. What I didn't take into account was that when you have many factions constantly added such planning is very hard. Which is a bit inexcusable on my part as someone who dwelled normally in the depths of the NRP forum.

Another thing was that the IC got ridiculously chaotic, making it pretty much useless to get any story arcs going like I tried doing. Random characters bursting it made it hard to really structure things and shifting attention story-wise made it exhausting to deal with.

I also found the focus on character powers over making unique characters with unique perspectives a bit irritating as the app sheets facilitated that with the tier system and how the sheets emphasized abilities and gear as much as it did.

Than you have the more internal issues I have, but these are issues with the general culture of the site and more my own scruples. I am no fan of the genres that other players on this site embrace. I didn't feel like a lot of people were being creative enough with the canvas given to them and instead stuck to anime stuff. It seemed like the overwhelming majority of people was some anime character. However I find that anime is ubiquitous with RPs in general, especially on forums dedicated to them like this one. I wouldn't have been so bothered by it if there was more diversity of media inspiration going in. I tried to facilitate that with that new space opera based faction I hosted to little success as people would still draw from anime instead of any other medium. And what was I to do, tell people they couldn't make anime based characters within the faction when the overwhelming majority of players do that?

Like, you are given the whole universe and all you do is populate it with anime characters. Don't get me wrong, I know there's lots of anime stuff that makes use of such large scale spaces with weird alien creatures, but like if you are going for some multiverse RP setting wouldn't drawing from everywhere make more sense than drawing only from anime? I know there's a minority of players who did that, but the majority didn't.

That being said while I don't have interest (I like star wars, but don't have interest in participating in fandom stuff), I can see why the next PW is a star wars one. Much less need to worry about the technology-magic balance when every character isn't having their own magic system or tech paradigm and instead drawing from star wars lore.

[Dion]

You can't have a 20 IC topic spread when you have 20 (barely active) players. :^)

[Morose]

I myself didn't join EH because the rules system looked to be entirely too intricate for something I wasn't even sure if it would last. I don't want to spend all of the time and effort jumping through those hoops if I'll ultimately get nothing out of it. It also wasn't a very defined plot/story arc/even a theme in my opinion, and any of that shared universe type experience I wanted can largely be simulated by a GM or a group of GM's (for instance, @Lady Amalthea has an amazing RP multiverse) with a more streamlined process, clearly defined ideas, and attentive GM and Co-GMs.

[Loco Mofo]

I have no idea what happened with the RP in question, but no one has mentioned that it's Star Wars. Point blank. This is sci fi gospel. As a huge SW fan, I can tell you there are 0 good SW RPs to my knowledge.

Never read a good one, because it's SW. I LOVE this shit. Disney can't do it, we can't either.

[BrokenPromise]

no one has mentioned that it's Star Wars.

@Loco Mofo

Probably because this topic is talking about the former PW, which was rando mutiverse garbage. You're thinking about the current one.

[Dion]

I know of at least one good SW RP to have existed at some point. And I don't even follow those RP's because I never saw SW. I think Ruby ran it.

[Loco Mofo]

<Snipped quote by Loco Mofo>

Probably because this topic is talking about the former PW, which was rando mutiverse garbage. You're thinking about the current one.

@BrokenPromise

My mistake I misread the OP when he said new SW PW.

I know of at least one good SW RP to have existed at some point. And I don't even follow those RP's because I never saw SW. I think Ruby ran it.

@Odin

I've seen a few that were better than Last Jedi, if that's what you mean.

Problem is everyone wants to put thier own brand on everything, and you can't put any brand on SW except Lucas. It's too iconic and established.

So when a few people are trying to do decent grass roots Jedi, Sith, Empire, or Republic characters, looking for a meaningful Star Wars experience, that one kyber-katana wielding ex-Sith Jedi Academy drop-out turned bounty hunter just destroys it all by proxy. And some broken, self-centered, unicorn character build emerges in every RP known to man.

[Liaison]

I rp to create new concepts and contribute to building new worlds. Yeah, Star Wars is known setting but this entire pw is practically filler like rouge one.