A tribute to the former fans of Star Wars

[Fabricant451]

Why is it fine that Baby Yoda can use the Force without training but when Rey does a mind trick and barely defeats a wounded and emotionally compromised opponent people got really upset.

Also as Star Wars fans aren't people used to disappointment by now. I mean people are fans of a film franchise where only three of the movies are good.

[Crimson Paladin]

Because Baby Yoda is a member of a mysterious species whom we know very little about, except every example previously seen was a Jedi Master, meaning that it's seems more plausible to believe that manipulating the Force is instinctual to them. Additionally, he's fifty years old and we know nothing of his past. Rey is a human, and the previous human force sensitive protagonists we've seen actually needed to be guided and trained in the Force to be able to use most of their powers.

It's one thing to be disappointed. The franchise has been producing turds since the Holiday Special came out. But the Sequels weren't merely disappointing, they were insulting.

And to give credit where credit is due, I'm not criticizing Rey's ability to beat Kylo. She was already established as a skilled melee fighter, and you don't necessarily need the Force to beat someone in a swordfight.

[mickilennial]

And for some reason, Disney took the dumbest aspects of the old EU, like Palpatine coming back (Dark Empire), a seemingly dead Sith Lord returning and pulling an army of Sith Troopers and ships out from nowhere (Star Wars: Legacy), Han and Leia's son turning to the Dark Side and becoming a fascist enforcer (Legacy of the Force), and an Imperial Remnant possessing a superweapon that can destroy multiple planets on the other side of the galaxy (Dark Empire II), and made them even dumber and nonsensical.

@Crimson Paladin

Yep.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Disney decided to steal from the EU they retconned with far less nuance, patience, or skill.

[Fabricant451]

Because Baby Yoda is a member of a mysterious species whom we know very little about, except every example previously seen was a Jedi Master, meaning that it's seems more plausible to believe that manipulating the Force is instinctual to them. Additionally, he's fifty years old and we know nothing of his past. Rey is a human, and the previous human force sensitive protagonists we've seen actually needed to be guided and trained in the Force to be able to use most of their powers.

@Crimson Paladin

Except the only thing we know about Yoda and I guess Yaddle is that they have spent centuries training in the Force. After centuries of training I'd expect anyone to be good at it; it's not like the assumption is "members of this race are naturally good at the Force" (or at least it wasn't) but rather "members of this race are long lived and thus can spend a long time mastering the Force." We didn't see Yoda as a padawan but it's not like he showed up to the Jedi and was like "Good I am in the Force. A Master you must make me."

Rey is a human, yes, but she - like the other protagonists - was chosen by the Force to be the foil to the rising dark side - in this case Kylo Ren. The Force in balance doesn't mean 'the light side defeats the dark side' like the Jedi in the prequels thought, there needs to be light and dark otherwise the Force will do its best to fin the yin to the yang and vice versa. With Luke cutting his connection to the Force, Rey was chosen. "There's been an awakening, have you felt it?" Rey is the perfect foil to Kylo Ren because Kylo Ren is so desperate to be something he isn't based solely on the fact that he's somebody. He's a Skywalker. He's a Solo. His grandfather is Darth Vader and his uncle is Luke Skywalker. Being powerful is his birthright. He believes Anakin's saber is rightfully his just because of his blood, so when this literal actual nobody is who the saber responds to, he's furious because she is, unknowingly, showing him his own failures.

It's pretty established that Force Sensitives unconsciously use the Force to help them out. Anakin was using it to podrace, Ezra was using it in his con artist days. Rey was guided by the Force by Anakin's lightsaber, given a lecture on how to feel the Force by Maz Kanata, told by Han Solo that all the stories about the Jedi and Luke were true, and was able to call out Kylo Ren when he linked their minds, and only then did she use the mind trick which didn't work right away.

If we, as an audience, can buy Luke being able to fly an X-Wing despite barely any comparable flight training, using the Force to guide the torpedoes after a very brief 'training' session, and being able to call his lightsaber to free himself from the wampa without question then I don't think it's too much to ask that someone we are told multiple times in the movie as being strong in the Force (because the Force needed her for balance) being able to use a Jedi Mind Trick on James Bondtrooper.

I'd much more easily believe that a character we're told and shown to be strong in the Force can pull off a mind trick than I can that a baby in a long lived species can just instinctively use the Force to levitate living creatures and heal a man on the verge of death just because the most famous member of his species was a Jedi for 800 years.

[BrokenPromise]

@Fabricant451

But Luke's mad piloting skills were hinted at several times in the movie. He just needed to be antiquated with the X-wing instead of learning how to fly from scratch. And he at least trained with the force before using it to guide a proton torpedo into an impossible shot. The force was used to augment skills he already had. Calling a lightsaber to your hand in a dire situation with extreme focus is also a far cry from say, using it to control people's minds.

I don't get baby Yoda though. Aside from "merchandise strategy."

EDIT: Also, Obi-wan likely taught Luke a few things as well. We never saw him teach Luke force pull, but it's possible it was part of their lessons together.

[Fabricant451]

@BrokenPromise

It was hinted at twice, and his experience as a a pilot was with a T-16 shooting animals for fun like some kind of insane person. That hardly translates to 'familiarity with a military craft and able to fly in a combat mission ten minutes after arriving on Yavin'. I can drive a car but I'm not going to be able to race in a NASCAR event just because I know how to use a steering wheel. I don't have an issue with Luke flying an X-Wing because he's the protagonist and Star Wars is a fairy tale. And by that same token I can buy a nine year old being able to single handedly take down the enemy ship that ends the battle on Naboo just because he's got a high amount of magic bugs in his blood and I buy that a 19 year old survivalist and scavenger, summoned by the Force itself to answer the call to action (which she denies twice outright), can use the Force to get herself out of a torture chair.

There's been this common thought since 2015 that Rey using a mind trick without years and years of training makes her unfathomably and unfairly strong when the text of the movie shows that to be untrue. The only difference between Rey using a mind trick and Anakin using precognitive sight to podrace is that one of them did it consciously. Anakin gets a pass because he's 'the chosen one' but Rey doesn't get a pass because someone being strong in the Force shouldn't be able to use the Force once without training? Do people think Broom Kid is bullshit because he used the Force without training?

[Penny]

shooting animals for fun like some kind of insane person.

@Fabricant451

While Luke's piloting ability is highly suspect, I never stopped to consider he is the kind of asshole that shoots at animals from the back of a pickup.

[Crimson Paladin]

As I said, we know nothing about Yoda's species, except as I've mentioned, every single one seen previously both in the old EU and the new Disney canon is that every single one was a Jedi master. They may have had centuries to train, but they were all force-sensitive, something that can't be gained by training. It makes sense for a species that is universally force-sensitive to have some sort of instinctual ability to use the Force, and is a lot more plausible than a human, a species which is not only only rarely force-sensitive, but even those that are typically require extensive training to learn to use. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still find Baby Yoda more tolerable because for all of his powers, it doesn't make him unstoppable- most of the struggles in the series are solved by the Mandalorian and his allies.

Compare Rey to Luke, or Anakin for that matter. They were also chosen ones, but they required actual training to use the Force. Prior to being taught by Obi-Wan, the only abilities they could tap into by themselves were supernaturally good reflexes and perhaps a bit of a sixth sense. True, Luke could pull his lightsaber to him on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back, but that's partially explained by a midquel novel Heir to the Jedi (in a bit of trivia, it was originally intended for the previous EU, but was folded into Disney canon, so its intentions apply to both canons) which details Luke's attempt to learn to harness the Force without Obi-Wan, and also has him try and fail to use a mind trick. By contrast, Rey is able to figure out a mind trick in about a minute without presumably having ever seen one in action, and is able to use telekinesis with enough strength to overpower Kylo's own telekinesis. And then she does herself one better by figuring out how to force heal by herself...somehow.

Rey basically gains her powers on her own with minimal lead up and no training, just because The Force wills it for some reason. The real reason is that Disney wanted a strong poster girl but didn't want to have to take the time developing her into it like was the case with Luke, who spent most of the OT being little more than a farmboy who could barely use his powers, struggling constantly and having to be rescued repeatedly. The more cynical explanation is that they simply wanted someone who was straight up superior to the Jedi hero of the OT.

I don't disparage Rey's ability to fight any more than I disparage Luke's ability to pilot. They're skills that are established early on (or at least seemingly intended to be), and they're pivotal to the respective character's success in the first movie of each trilogy. That's not what this is about. I'll admit that Anakin blowing up the Trade Federation command ship was silly and unnecessary, but it was a good example of the old EU idea of the Force having a sense of humor when it comes to chosen ones, that sometimes destiny gets silly, kind of like that anecdote in KOTOR about that guy with a great destiny...who got thrown into a reactor shaft by a warlord, which caused the ship to be destroyed and the political course of the sector to be changed for centuries to come.

While Luke's piloting ability is highly suspect, I never stopped to consider he is the kind of asshole that shoots at animals from the back of a pickup.

@Penny

To be fair, Womp Rats are disease-carrying pests that also happen to be aggressive pack hunters. Imagine the Pandyssian Bull Rats from Dishonored, except they can grow to be over 2 meters each.

[BrokenPromise]

There's been this common thought since 2015 that Rey using a mind trick without years and years of training makes her unfathomably and unfairly strong when the text of the movie shows that to be untrue. The only difference between Rey using a mind trick and Anakin using precognitive sight to podrace is that one of them did it consciously. Anakin gets a pass because he's 'the chosen one' but Rey doesn't get a pass because someone being strong in the Force shouldn't be able to use the Force once without training? Do people think Broom Kid is bullshit because he used the Force without training?

@Fabricant451

It's been a while since I've seen the prequals, but I don't remember it ever being explicitly said that Anakin used the force to podrace.

I didn't really take issue with Rey being able to use the force without training, but she was able to reverse Kylo's mind control back on him, Someone who had been trained by two different masters of the force. That among other things, like being able to beat a trained storm trooper (Finn) or being able to fix the millennium falcon better than its owner can. Because she's a scavenger? I dunno fam. I mean sure, Ray gets to win fights because she's the protag and everything, but it was just all so easy for her. I can't think of a single good trilogy where the first act is a breeze for the protagonist.

[Fabricant451]

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

It's been a while since I've seen the prequals, but I don't remember it ever being explicitly said that Anakin used the force to podrace.

I didn't really take issue with Rey being able to use the force without training, but she was able to reverse Kylo's mind control back on him, Someone who had been trained by two different masters of the force. That among other things, like being able to beat a trained storm trooper (Finn) or being able to fix the millennium falcon better than its owner can. Because she's a scavenger? I dunno fam. I mean sure, Ray gets to win fights because she's the protag and everything, but it was just all so easy for her. I can't think of a single good trilogy where the first act is a breeze for the protagonist.

@BrokenPromise

Qui-Gon: He has special powers. He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait.

Anakin is also the only human who can podrace and it's specifically because he's using innate Force reflexes.

Finn was a janitor and the mission on Jakku was his first mission. Rey has been surviving alone on Jakku since a young age. Finn was tired, defenseless while Rey carries a weapon at all times to survive - why shouldn't she have beaten someone like Finn who had all but stumbled his way through the desert? The only reason Rey can 'fix the Millennium Falcon better than its owner' is because Rey was there when the junk dealer Unkar Plutt installed the device that made the Falcon fly weirdly. Rey's abilities pre-Force are all shown and justified within the movie itself either verbally or through visual story telling.

Compare Rey to Luke, or Anakin for that matter. They were also chosen ones, but they required actual training to use the Force. Prior to being taught by Obi-Wan, the only abilities they could tap into by themselves were supernaturally good reflexes and perhaps a bit of a sixth sense. True, Luke could pull his lightsaber to him on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back, but that's partially explained by a midquel novel Heir to the Jedi (in a bit of trivia, it was originally intended for the previous EU, but was folded into Disney canon, so its intentions apply to both canons) which details Luke's attempt to learn to harness the Force without Obi-Wan, and also has him try and fail to use a mind trick.

@Crimson Paladin

So a novel written decades after the movie came out retroactively makes it okay that Luke pulls his lightsaber to him? Alright if we're allowing novels as canon then here you go:

“Kylo had retreated at finding Rey in his head – had practically fled from her. But that had not been the end of that strange, sudden connection. She had seen more – far more. Somehow, almost instinctually, she knew how he accessed some of the powers at his commend – even though she didn’t understand them. It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind.”

If we can believe Anakin can instinctually use Jedi reflexes then we have to believe that Rey, being chosen by the Force to be Kylo's equal in the light, can instinctually cheat off of Kylo's test answers to resist and subsequently mind trick James Bond.

And then she does herself one better by figuring out how to force heal by herself...somehow.

At this point she has had training both from Leia and the ancient texts of the Jedi. There's more support for her knowing how to force heal than Baby Yoda.

Rey basically gains her powers on her own with minimal lead up and no training, just because The Force wills it for some reason.

Yes, this is how The Force will seek to balance itself by having the equal to the Dark/Light rise/awaken/whatever.

The real reason is that Disney wanted a strong poster girl but didn't want to have to take the time developing her into it like was the case with Luke, who spent most of the OT being little more than a farmboy who could barely use his powers, struggling constantly and having to be rescued repeatedly. The more cynical explanation is that they simply wanted someone who was straight up superior to the Jedi hero of the OT.

I'd argue that Rey was plenty developed in two of the three movies. Her development was just the antithesis to Luke's heroic journey archetype because for the first two movies she's refusing to accept her role in the events. There's a reason we're introduced to Rey in TFA by going through a day in her life. Rey's struggles are less physical and more internal but that doesn't mean she doesn't struggle or develop over the course of 7 and 8. It's only when 9 came around to ruin its own characterization that, well, ruined it.

The hard truth of the Star Wars movies is that apart from the two minutes in A New Hope and the, like, six minutes of Empire Strikes Back, across the prequels and the original trilogy we never actually see the protagonists train much at all because movies aren't serials and dedicating precious runtime to lengthy training arcs is meaningless. All of Anakin's training happens off screen to the point where the Anakin in TPM and the Anakin in AOTC might as well be different characters. Yes, we can infer that Luke went to Yoda for a bit in the brief time between ESB and ROTJ but Luke at the start of Jedi is announcing himself as a Jedi Knight to Jabba as if he took the community college jedi course. It only became an issue that the protagonist didn't train in the first movie because suddenly it was unacceptable that the main character, mentioned by the antagonist to be, quote "[she's] strong with the Force, untrained, but stronger than she knows.

In the movie itself, before Rey is captured, before the interrogation, before the mind trick, Maz tells Rey: "I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."

The notes of the film's script say: Kylo Ren nearly TOUCHES HER FACE...THEY'RE BOTH SURPRISED: they react to a feeling that passes between them -- AN ENERGY THEY RECOGNIZE IN EACH OTHER.

He peers into her eyes intensely. She meets his gaze --
DESPITE THE PAIN SHE IS STRONG.

On Ren's face as HIS CONFIDENCE BEGINS TO MELT AWAY. He has
slammed up against a barrier in her mind. He looks less
certain by the moment as Rey seems to GROW IN STRENGTH. The
FEROCITY of confrontation builds until it hits critical mass

SLOW PUSH IN ON REY, shackled, mind still racing over what's
happened between her and Kylo Ren. She is flooded with
emotions, feeling her potential, her strength, that in this
moment of being restrained, perhaps anything is possible.

The Trooper Guard DROPS HIS WEAPON without turning back --
Rey HEARS the gun fall. She's incredulous. The guard has
LEFT THE CELL, ITS DOOR OPEN.
REY, in ABSOLUTE DISBELIEF, MOVES QUICKLY OUT OF FRAME!

There's textual evidence in the film itself AND the script and even the novelization of the next movie that all justify and explain Rey's seemingly sudden ability to use a damn mind trick.

[Crimson Paladin]

Yes, this is how The Force will seek to balance itself by having the equal to the Dark/Light rise/awaken/whatever.

@Fabricant451

Yes, but before the Sequel Trilogy, the heroes actually had to work to be able to tap into it. You're right that the Force seeks to rebalance itself and that force bonds can make it easier for someone to learn to use the Force even in the EU, a good example being KOTOR II (which was also a far better subversion and deconstruction of the setting than TLJ was). Narratively, however, it feels unsound because they basically give Rey the power on a silver platter by giving her the force bond shortcut instead of having to spend a few films working hard and having to constantly be rescued until she can stand on her own two feet so to speak, and again I reiterate that I believe that it's because the execs didn't think that Rey would be as initially marketable if they made her take as much time as Luke did in the OT to get to around his level, because they believed "morally conflicted but already capable fighter" would sell more toys than "idealistic aspiring hero who starts out with no skills other than barnstorming and creativity with a grappling line, and as a result has to be rescued constantly until the third film".

I'd argue that Rey was plenty developed in two of the three movies. Her development was just the antithesis to Luke's heroic journey archetype because for the first two movies she's refusing to accept her role in the events. There's a reason we're introduced to Rey in TFA by going through a day in her life. Rey's struggles are less physical and more internal but that doesn't mean she doesn't struggle or develop over the course of 7 and 8. It's only when 9 came around to ruin its own characterization that, well, ruined it.

The hard truth of the Star Wars movies is that apart from the two minutes in A New Hope and the, like, six minutes of Empire Strikes Back, across the prequels and the original trilogy we never actually see the protagonists train much at all because movies aren't serials and dedicating precious runtime to lengthy training arcs is meaningless. All of Anakin's training happens off screen to the point where the Anakin in TPM and the Anakin in AOTC might as well be different characters. Yes, we can infer that Luke went to Yoda for a bit in the brief time between ESB and ROTJ but Luke at the start of Jedi is announcing himself as a Jedi Knight to Jabba as if he took the community college jedi course. It only became an issue that the protagonist didn't train in the first movie because suddenly it was unacceptable that the main character, mentioned by the antagonist to be, quote "[she's] strong with the Force, untrained, but stronger than she knows.

At least we actually saw Luke training. We see Luke struggle to learn to block blaster bolts, and we see him struggle, and fail, to use telekinesis. We see him decisively defeated by Darth Vader even after this incomplete training, and it's why it's so great to see him in action for the first time in Episode 6, because of how far our farmboy has come after two movies of struggling, stumbling, brushes with death, failure, and dismemberment that he's suffered through to get there. And it took two and a half films (three if for some deranged reason we opt to include the Holiday Special) to get that far. And then Disney has the audacity to turn him into a jaded failure who sits in hiding drinking sloth milk while the mess he created continues to snowball into a bigger and bigger disaster, so they can plug their new, superior chosen hero to save the day.

[BrokenPromise]

Ultimately, it's bad story craft to have a perfect character with no real opposition.

[Fabricant451]

Ultimately, it's bad story craft to have a perfect character with no real opposition.

@BrokenPromise

Good thing we didn't have that story.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>
Yes, but before the Sequel Trilogy, the heroes actually had to work to be able to tap into it. You're right that the Force seeks to rebalance itself and that force bonds can make it easier for someone to learn to use the Force even in the EU, a good example being KOTOR II (which was also a far better subversion and deconstruction of the setting than TLJ was).

@Crimson Paladin

TLJ wasn't a subversion, it was just answering questions TFA didn't want to answer because JJ doesn't like doing that and people didn't like the answers given because it didn't match their theories. Rey doesn't even do anything that remarkable with the Force until TROS by which point it doesn't matter because she's got the texts, Leia's a Jedi master now, and also her blood is magic because fuck it let's ruin all our established characters because people weren't happy.

Narratively, however, it feels unsound because they basically give Rey the power on a silver platter by giving her the force bond shortcut instead of having to spend a few films working hard and having to constantly be rescued until she can stand on her own two feet so to speak, and again I reiterate that I believe that it's because the execs didn't think that Rey would be as initially marketable if they made her take as much time as Luke did in the OT to get to around his level, because they believed "morally conflicted but already capable fighter" would sell more toys than "idealistic aspiring hero who starts out with no skills other than barnstorming and creativity with a grappling line, and as a result has to be rescued constantly until the third film".

Rey does have to be rescued in TLJ. Kylo rescues her from the mess she put herself into. She initially assumed she needed rescue in TFA but then the Force awoke in her and she tried her luck and then the character that we saw to be a loner, survivalist who looks out and takes care of herself out of necessity thanks to her harsh environment....decided to survive and take care of herself until she ran into her friend and father figure.

The movie itself, the script of the movie, and the novelization of the sequel movie have all given legitimate reasons as to why Rey was able to use one single Force ability after being told how she's Force sensitive and how to let it flow through and guide her by two different people but it's rejected because in the first movie she didn't have Luke or Leia step in and go "Let me train you on our trip to Starkiller Base". Why would that have been more agreeable instead of having the villains (and a hero) remark how strong she is and her realizing that, like the great hero Luke Skywalker that even she has heard of in her backwater nowhere planet, maybe she can do something too?

Why does Rey need training to justify a mind trick because she's a human but Baby Yoda doesn't need anything to justify more impressive feats just because he's of the same unknown race as a centuries old Jedi Master.

And then Disney has the audacity to turn him into a jaded failure who sits in hiding drinking sloth milk while the mess he created continues to snowball into a bigger and bigger disaster, so they can plug their new, superior chosen hero to save the day.

Yes, we saw Disney take an idea George Lucas had and run with it to give Luke Skywalker a more human characterization because the Jedi constantly deal with the dark side. Their 'superior chosen hero' literally left because she thought Kylo was the one that was going to save the day, she was wrong, messed up, and then Luke Skywalker had to be the biggest and best Jedi ever to save the day but yes let's act like Luke's development doesn't make sense or is a slap in the face instead of a natural progression of a character who for three movies was an impatient kid who only believed Vader could be redeemed in the last twenty minutes of the last movie.

[Crimson Paladin]

While there are lot of reasons to dislike TLJ, its handling of Rey was not one of them.

@Fabricant451

That's fair. TLJ, for its many, many flaws, was willing to put Rey in danger that she couldn't Deus ex Machina her way out of.

The movie itself, the script of the movie, and the novelization of the sequel movie have all given legitimate reasons as to why Rey was able to use one single Force ability after being told how she's Force sensitive and how to let it flow through and guide her by two different people but it's rejected because in the first movie she didn't have Luke or Leia step in and go "Let me train you on our trip to Starkiller Base". Why would that have been more agreeable instead of having the villains (and a hero) remark how strong she is and her realizing that, like the great hero Luke Skywalker that even she has heard of in her backwater nowhere planet, maybe she can do something too?

Because it feels like it's being handed to her early on. Luke couldn't successfully use Telekinesis until his second movie and even then it was established to be pretty weak at the time, he and didn't pull off a mind trick until the third.

Why does Rey need training to justify a mind trick because she's a human but Baby Yoda doesn't need anything to justify more impressive feats just because he's of the same unknown race as a centuries old Jedi Master.

Because aside from what I've said, Rey is the hero of the Sequel Trilogy. It's about her journey, whereas Baby Yoda is but a supporting character in his series, of a species we know nothing about other than every previously seen member has been immensely strong in the Force, and fifty years of background we know nothing about, which means I'm willing to give it a benefit of a doubt, at least for the time being.

Yes, we saw Disney take an idea George Lucas had and run with it to give Luke Skywalker a more human characterization because the Jedi constantly deal with the dark side. Their 'superior chosen hero' literally left because she thought Kylo was the one that was going to save the day, she was wrong, messed up, and then Luke Skywalker had to be the biggest and best Jedi ever to save the day but yes let's act like Luke's development doesn't make sense or is a slap in the face instead of a natural progression of a character who for three movies was an impatient kid who only believed Vader could be redeemed in the last twenty minutes of the last movie.

That wasn't simply human characterization or natural progression. This was turning the hero of the original trilogy, the one who was to bring about the return of the Jedi Order, and one of the science fiction and space opera genres' most iconic heroes, and turned him into a failure who gave up when he hit a setback and ran from his responsibilities and went into hiding. It's not that he made mistakes, it's that he ran and hid from them and because of it, the fallout of his mistakes worsened until the galaxy went to hell. At least Yoda and Obi-Wan kept on fighting the Sith right up until things got bad enough that they couldn't continue, and even then never lost hope that they could set things right. Sure he eventually got over himself and sacrificed himself to save the day- years later, after the galaxy had gone to hell due to his irresponsible inaction. And if anything, his willingness to try and redeem his father stands in stark, insulting contrast to the foolish action that led to the destruction of his would-be Jedi Order.

Making Luke flawed and human is one thing. But turning him into the mockery of everything the character once stood for is another.

[Penny]

I think my favorite thing about TLJ is that they introduce the relativistic kill vehicle after very sensibly avoiding it in all the previous lore.

In fact, come to think of it, they basically make all hyperspace into magic.

[Fabricant451]

Because it feels like it's being handed to her early on. Luke couldn't successfully use Telekinesis until his second movie and even then it was established to be pretty weak at the time, he and didn't pull off a mind trick until the third.

@Crimson Paladin

And until the third movie, all Rey really did apart from being a fair fighter (established in her intro scenes), was an almost unsuccessful mind trick and the lifting of rocks. The only thing she was handed was an affinity for the Force but that just puts her in line with Star Wars protagonists. We've got a metaphorical space Jesus, the son of space Jesus, and the granddaughter of Space Hitler. Yes, granted at the time we didn't know that (and it's one of the worst decisions TROS made but my issues with that movie would make the two year angry at TLJ people blush) and one could argue that it was a panic decision (it probably was; but one could also argue there were hints enough throughout 7 and 8 between her initial vision and her immediate choice to ask the dark side for answers) but accepting it as true, then having Palpatine blood sort of makes a mind trick second nature considering the old raisin tricked an entire government to make him the dictator for life.

But strictly for the sake of argument and using only TFA, what we are shown and told in the movie seems totally feasible within the context of Star Wars, what we know of The Force (which is fuckall since it's constantly undefined vague magic mumbo jumbo), and protagonists of Star Wars. Luke Skywalker is an outlier only because back in '77 no one knew that his bloodline was actually that of the chosen savior of the Force, but Luke Skywalker's biggest struggle and defeat in A New Hope happens around him, not to him. His aunt and uncle die (thus actually giving him what he wants anyway), his mentor of two days, give or take, dies, and he doesn't even realize how close he came to death because Han Solo takes out Darth Vader so he can make a one in a million shot by using the Force to guide torpedoes into a shaft. Doesn't exactly seem like the kind of thing an impromptu training session with a targeting drone and a helmet covers. He manages to stumble into a rescue and get out relatively unscathed despite having no plan for a rescue and basically outwits an entire battle station's worth of enemy soldiers (who are said to be amazing shots in the very same movie) including Darth Vader himself.

Anakin is an exceptional individual who, at age 9, built C-3P0 while living in a mud hut and being a slave, is the only human podracer because of his insane Force bug count, flies a starfighter into a battle and not only gets aboard the enemy command ship but blows it up and gets away, and despite the entire reservation of the Jedi still manages to get accepted for training despite him being both too old and having a lingering attachment and fears which ultimately lead to his turn. We accept all of this because we already know he becomes Darth Vader and we like Darth Vader.

Rey was left on a desert planet by her parents and from a young age worked as a scavenger salvaging parts and repairing things, fixing up junked ships, and playing with old flight simulations. She's absolutely unremarkable other than her knack for survival but she's conflicted internally. She's the audience. She's us when her eyes light up at hearing about Luke Skywalker, at meeting Han Solo. Much the same as people could relate to Luke as a teenager wanting a more exciting life. She's taught herself everything because she's had to, she didn't have a mother or an aunt and uncle and a secret Jedi watching out for her. She's used to being alone, used to fending for herself, used to not being handed things. This is why she's the foil for the other protagonist, Kylo Ren. She has no reason to believe she is special until she is told she is by The Force itself via Anakin's lightsaber and by Maz Kanata, and then confirmed by Kylo Ren. And so this character, who has heard of Luke Skywalker, the Force, the stories, the legends, this person who has had to work for everything her whole life is being told that she has an incredible gift, her first reaction is to shun it; her second reaction is to try it. No one is more shocked than she is when it works.

Her third and final reaction is to accept it, which is when she finally overcomes the villain.

She doesn't have an Obi-Wan or a Yoda or a Luke or a Leia but the thing is, she doesn't know she would even need one. What she does have is someone knowledgeable about the Force telling her how to let it guide her - something that Luke Skywalker echoes to her and something that Obi-Wan told Luke. The most important part of Luke's 'training' wasn't the helmet shit, it was Obi-Wan flatout saying "A Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him. [...] it obeys your commands." That isn't all that dissimilar to what Maz tells Rey, and then we have confirmation that Rey's eyes were opened to possibility thanks to Kylo even if neither of them were aware of anything other than that they both are strong in the Force.

If Luke Skywalker can blow up the Death Star because Obi-Wan told him how to feel the Force, then Rey can mind trick a guard (after two failed attempts, mind) because Maz Kanata told her how to feel the Force.

And as we see in the next movie, someone who can use the Force doesn't need a teacher to tap into it.

When Luke used the Force to get out of the wampa cave, did anyone think "Oh it's because he was trained in two minutes by Obi-Wan in the last movie!" or did they think "Well he can use the Force and that's something the Force can do!" It shouldn't be so unreasonable to believe that Rey can use the Force to trick a stormtrooper. And yet...for some reason...it is. And now with the terrible hindsight, there's even less reason for it to be unreasonable.

If we want to be truly cynical about it, then the obvious answer is Rey used the mind trick on a stormtrooper because Obi-Wan did it in A New Hope and TFA is not at all shy about wearing its influences so deep on its sleeve that it might as well be a whole shirt.

Because aside from what I've said, Rey is the hero of the Sequel Trilogy. It's about her journey, whereas Baby Yoda is but a supporting character in his series, of a species we know nothing about other than every previously seen member has been immensely strong in the Force, and fifty years of background we know nothing about, which means I'm willing to give it a benefit of a doubt, at least for the time being.

We've seen dozens and dozens of humans of all ages being Force sensitive and the two biggest Force users that the entire film saga is built around are humans. We've only seen three Yodas and Yoda being strong in the Force wasn't out and out a genetic trait of his kind but rather the result of training for like 800 years. Somehow I doubt season 2 is going to reveal that Baby Yoda is the reincarnation of Yoda Prime or that prior to being on that planet with Nick Nolte that he was being trained in the Force by Luke Skywalker or some new Force user. The only reason people accept Baby Yoda doing crazy things with the Force as the equivalent of a human baby is because it looks like Yoda and we like Yoda.

People aren't willing to give the widow in episode 4 the benefit of the doubt in knowing how to shoot a blaster in a universe that is constantly in a cycle of war but they are totally fine with a little baby healing people and helping his dad fight a beast.

Also let's be totally real here, what do we even know about how strong Yaddle is in the Force considering she bounced out the Jedi to let Shaak Ti hang in the big chairs.

Making Luke flawed and human is one thing. But turning him into the mockery of everything the character once stood for is another.

I don't agree that Luke was turned into a mockery at all. If anything the Luke in TLJ was totally in line with the original vision of a sequel Luke albeit considerably toned down. I won't get into it because otherwise I would be here all night writing another essay about TLJ but suffice it to say in my mind the Luke in TLJ was fascinating and fantastic and one of the biggest reasons why it's the best Star Wars.

[Hammerman]

@Callousqueen
OK boomer

[IceHeart]

I liked Star Wars as a kid and even know I like it but not to the same extent as back then. The Star Wars movies were fun and all but it was the various games I played based on the franchise that really got me into the series. I am not ashamed to say that I liked the prequels though I will easily admit there was a lot done wrong in them, especially the Phantom Menace. That said, what the Prequels managed to do was show how the Empire came to power and what the Republic was like before the Empire which was great at establishing lore. Just knowing what the Jedi Council was like and how many there were during that time period was exciting and interesting. Quite a few fun games were made based on the prequels that I had a lot of fun with and I did enjoy the Clone Wars series, even if it was a bit wonky.

Despite all the flaws, the Prequels opened up so much of interest to the fans about the Star Wars Universe, and prequel series like Knights of the Old Republic were fun and amazing, with quite a bit of influence from both the prequels and original sagas. Fans' imaginations soared and tons of role plays and games made the community feel alive. Also there are plenty of games like Jedi Knight that were placed after the original series and based on the Expanded Universe that were quite interesting, unique, and fun.

Then came along Disney with the Sequels and the first thing they do is declare the entire Expanded Universe as non-cannon. Ok, so technically that makes sense as you wouldn't want to be bound to the Expanded Universe when trying to make a sequel which is fine, but just the fact that they had to go out of their way to point that out was a bit concerning. It was a red flag for me, though a small one. Still there was a lot of good characters and story lines in the expanded universe, though admittedly I knew mostly just the game stuff but there were definitely a lot of good story lines and characters to mess around with. Also there were a lot of interesting politics that I gleaned from the few books I read about the New Republic and the challenges it faced, the sequels basically just blew it up, literally.

The rebels in the original were exactly that, rebels who were rebelling against a cruel and corrupt government that had changed a Republic into a Dictatorship. The resistance in the sequels were a group of basically militia that was attempting to stop the expanse of a somehow really powerful empire remnant group while the New Republic sat on its ass having parties and not caring about this rising menace because they weren't threatening the core worlds...like really? What happened to the other empire remnants? How did the New Republic become so corrupt, incompetent, and lazy in such a short time?

We have a resistance that cosplayed as rebels, we have a Republic that apparently only cares about money rather then running a galaxy, and somehow the Empire had some secret order that rose to Empire levels of power and construction despite not having access to the core worlds? It was all just so...random. Yes random is probably the best word I have for the Sequel Saga. Old characters either went in completely weird directions or regressed back to their earlier days. New characters had weird development and most things that would have made them interesting, was pretty much completely ignored as the movies were bounced between directors.

The world building was strange and just seemed out of context with everything that had happened before. I could not find the new characters interesting enough to want to get to know them. All of the villains seemed weird or just incompetent. The New Republic government was literally blown up in the first movie by a weapon bigger and stronger than both Death Stars which had the manpower of an entire Empire behind their construction. Hyperspace was completely messed up with a ship becoming a ramming weapon stronger than most conventional weapons. There were just so many strange and, in my opinion, bad world-building choices in the Sequels, I would never be tempted to play a game or do a role play based on the the Sequel Saga.

Is Star Wars dead? No and I'm sure it never will be; however as long as Disney continues their current course, they will continue to see massive declines in anything Star Wars related, especially if it is related to the Sequel Saga. The Sequel Saga is a dead saga in many eyes, I for one greater prefer LEGENDS to the new canon despite its obvious flaws because I just find it so much more interesting. The Sequels nuked the politics side of Star Wars with a big gun and I just found the Saga dull and uninspired. I'll stick with Kyle Katarn and the Jedi Academy Star Wars over the Sequels thanks.

[Fabricant451]

We have a resistance that cosplayed as rebels, we have a Republic that apparently only cares about money rather then running a galaxy, and somehow the Empire had some secret order that rose to Empire levels of power and construction despite not having access to the core worlds?

@IceHeart

The First Order's whole thing was that after the Battle of Jakku (the actual end of the war from the OT), some Imperial forces basically refused to admit defeat and fucked off to beyond the Outer Rim because of a secret contingency plan from Palpatine carried out by Gallius Rax, basically the acting Emperor at the end of the war, and then actually carried out to completion by Rae Sloane. And none of this is in the movies because it is relegated to books, comics, and even fucking Battlefront 2 (did you know Battlefront 2 is so canon that it literally explains the start of The Last Jedi?) and that is the real tragedy of the sequels, that so much of it is relegated to outside material. If the sequels weren't set so close to the end of the OT and TFA didn't have to play it so safe that it might as well have just been hitting the reset button in The Matrix then maybe they could've done more to establish the stakes beyond "Oh it's the same but not really."

Ultimately the true success of the sequels is the characters. As long as you pretend Episode 9 didn't happen anyway.

[IceHeart]

<Snipped quote by IceHeart>
And none of this is in the movies because it is relegated to books, comics, and even fucking Battlefront 2 (did you know Battlefront 2 is so canon that it literally explains the start of The Last Jedi?) and that is the real tragedy of the sequels, that so much of it is relegated to outside material. If the sequels weren't set so close to the end of the OT and TFA didn't have to play it so safe that it might as well have just been hitting the reset button in The Matrix then maybe they could've done more to establish the stakes beyond "Oh it's the same but not really."

Ultimately the true success of the sequels is the characters. As long as you pretend Episode 9 didn't happen anyway.

@Fabricant451

You know I actually did know about Battlefront 2, but I never bought the game because I was very angry about the predatory practices being used in its gambling features. I was also angry that they tried to use the game as a way to explain the Sequel Movies, you should never have to buy a game to understand something about a freaken movie. Forcing such a tie in was one of the worst things that they ever did as such a blatant attempt to sell additional copies because you 'needed' to know that information. Games should always be a fun addition but never a need if they are related to a movie franchise.

I just refused to watch Episode 9 in theaters, maybe I'll give it a watch from a red box out of morbid curiosity but after the disaster of changing directors between movies, I knew there was no way the Sequels would be able to recover. TFA was just a sad rehash with some potential, TLJ just went in an entirely opposite direction and instead of having the gumption to go full steam with it, retracted itself as much as possible with episode 9.

The appropriate name for the Sequel Saga would probably be The Director Civil War Saga! Cause by the 2nd movie, that was pretty much what it had become. They tried to subvert expectations, got a ton of backlash, and just wimped out and tried to reverse course which probably just made things even worse than it had to be. So, Director Wars it is.