[OOC] Fate/Eternum — Reboot

[LukasVolkov]

@VitaVitaAR

Sooo I somehow got Endurance and Agility mixed up lol so that's an easy fix. I'll work on her first Np a little to make it more understandable. As for her Duelist skill, I was going for something similar to the vein of Chinese martial arts, and how in Fate it's regarded as a Magecraft in its own right. Considering at the time, and still to this day, serious fencers and duelists were taught edicts from a formal school of training. Like how Johannes Liechtenauer wrote a series of scripts on fencing and other such forms of fighting.

[VitaVitaAR]

@LukasVolkov: Hmm, I'll need to discuss this with the main a bit before coming to a full decision, when it comes to the skill.

[LukasVolkov]

@VitaVitaAR

Okay. I'll flesh it out a bit more to make it more understandable. The skill in my mind is in the same vein as Sherlock Holm's Chinese Boxing skill. My goal with all her skills is to make her a specialized threat to Knight class Servants.

[VitaVitaAR]

@LukasVolkov: How much of an equalizer do you think that should be? Like, which Servants do you think it'd make her a big danger to?

[LukasVolkov]

@VitaVitaAR

Sabers and Lancers mostly. If a fellow Assassin wields a bladed weapon then possibly. The focus is any Servant who wields a traditionally bladed weapon against her. Most archers wouldn’t be affected by her Duelist skill but an Archer like Emiya would be affected.

[Raineh Daze]

I think the point is asking for clarification beyond the entire class. There is a pretty big gulf between, say, Gilles de Rais and Lancelot. Aside from both being French.

[VitaVitaAR]

@LukasVolkov: Can I have some specific Saber and Lancer examples? I'd like to know exactly what you're going for.

[LukasVolkov]

@VitaVitaAR

The idea is the skill can make Julie a threat to traditional Lancer and Saber classes but can be used against any Servant who wields any Noble Phantasm that is a bladed weapon of some sort. Meaning someone like Jack for instance, whos main NP is a knife, Julie can land a blow of equal strength to a C rank NP release. Where Sabers are concerned if their weapon is a literal sword or a for a Lancer an actual spear (both bladed weapons) then Julie can achieve the same result. Now a Servant like Gilles, it Marie Antoinette the Skill isn’t effective against. An even better example is Iskandar who may wield a sword it isn’t a NP thus the skill doesn’t activate.

[LukasVolkov]

That make sense? I feel I’m making this more confusing. Oh and I edited her character sheet.

[Raineh Daze]

You're making comparisons that don't really make sense...? Like... "C rank NP release" is a term with no easily defined meaning. It's a way simpler question: who do you think she matches up to in a fight.

[LukasVolkov]

In the RP she could keep up with King Arthur, until she busts out Excalibur’s true name release then Julie’s I paste on the sidewalk. She could match Jack at first but Jack’s speed would win out in the end I think. Duelist essentially evens out the playing field by allowing Julie to interpret and anticipate the fighting style of blade wielding Servants, us the idea of using skill to outmatch strength and speed.

[FujiwaraPhoenix]

-has been watching from the sidelines as I clear Olympus-

Okay, uh... No? Being able to match the strongest Saber in-lore (cited multiple times throughout pretty much all of Fate) despite being a comparatively modern Servant in a setting where relative age compared to the present tends to be a good indicator of skill? Don't think so.

That'd be like saying you could match Lancelot head-on, which... Logically isn't possible either.

[Raineh Daze]

Arturia has repeatedly been stated, and never contradicted, as the strongest Saber all around. On top of that actually blocking her attacks flat-out breaks non-NP weapons and even if you're strong enough to hold it off starts breaking the scenery around you. This is entirely without releasing Invisible Air in the slightest.

I like Julie d'Aubigny, but there's no way that her duelling ability is going to even remotely compensate for the straight power gulf for people who can happily fight dragons. They're skilled and have way more brute force.

[LukasVolkov]

@PKMNB0Y

I’m not taking in pure numbers game, if the game was purely swords and skill she’d delay, at best, with the intent to flee the fuck out of there. As I said, Arthur pulls Excalibur’s true name, Julie would be paste on a side walk.

[LukasVolkov]

So back tot he Duelist skill should I just make it an analyst skill?

[VitaVitaAR]

@LukasVolkov: Okay, what I'm trying to get at is um...

Like, do you mean she could take Arturia in a straight fight without her using Excalibur's true name, or is it more her doing her best to not die and get away?

I kind of hate to use my own character as an example because it feels like I'm taking an issue with the idea of someone being able to fight her, which I'm not. But it's more the disparity in age as Servants(which is a big deal), legendary status, that kind of thing. Given Julie's young age in comparison to Arturia's myth and lack of like, say, really insane reality-bending techniques, it's unlikely she'd be able to keep a straight fight up with a much more legendary figure for very long.

Again like, I'm not saying it's impossible for a younger Servant to fight an older one, but in a straight fight it's a lot harder so I'm trying to get a sense of what you're going for.

[LukasVolkov]

@VitaVitaAR

I guess not. Honestly the whole system is a little... well wack. I've always looked at in the vein of skill to the younger and power to the older. Cause lets face it, swordsmen and women in the recent five hundred years have had more to work with, better teachers, more refined techniques, the works, the skills are more refined. That's what I'm looking at it from. Yes the older and more mysterious the legend the more power they have not disputing that, but more recent warriors, especially those known to have trained under the edicts of masters like Johannes and Fiore Dei Liberi would have better finesse with a blade than someone from an older era like Arturia. Lock their phantasms away, leaving only their skill with the blade, it'd be an even fight. Besides if we're looking at it from a fame point of view, Arthur's legend only claims he was worthy to pull Excalibur from the stone, legends say nothing of his prowess with it. So in that vein someone who's legend specifically notes a hero's skill with the blade- like Johannes Liechtenauer for example- would be naturally more skilled with a blade. Power is fine, not saying her outright power doesn't eclipse Julie's several times over- which it does- but- and I feel like a broken record- their skill in combat is- while not equal- Arturia defiantly has experience in spades- Julie has a chance. Combat is more than numbers.

[Raineh Daze]

Okay I don't know how to break it down but with exactly no NPs or magical assistance at all, against Taiga who is literally one of the best living swordsmen, Arturia won in like 10s. In a friendly match. Being modern doesn't mean the benefit of skill--better teachers is really questionable when there are people legendary for being awesome teachers (hi Chiron) and the techniques refined are often for sports... or to deal with armour and equipment that existed way earlier in the Nasuverse too.

This is quite ignoring the absurdity of claiming

Lock their phantasms away, leaving only their skill with the blade, it'd be an even fight.

that against Lancelot.

[FujiwaraPhoenix]

@LukasVolkov: That argument is fundamentally flawed. On multiple levels, actually.

The Nasuverse has a confirmed precedent for noting that Servants closer to the Age of Gods are more powerful than those of the modern era, as we can clearly see by Gilgamesh's power relative to... Pretty much everyone that might fall under the 'modern' bracket. What you're essentially describing—at least, as far as I can tell—is that an Olympic archer could shoot as well as an ancient-era archer on horseback, regardless of scenario. Even placing aside relative skill, you cannot say with the utmost confidence that you could place the two into the same in-combat scenario and expect ANY sort of comparable result.

Or, if we want an example focused around Heroic Spirits, comparing Orion and William Tell. A man who can hunt and kill any thing alive, as opposed to a guy who shot an apple off the top of his son's head? No contest, match in Orion's favor.

It just doesn't work. Period.

Also, yeah, what Rain said.

[LukasVolkov]

Ya know what I yield Arturia wins period (though it makes one wonder how she beats out Sabers older than her but meh). Can we get back to the skill discussion? Should I just cut it or... what?