[OOC] Civilisation VI - The Post-Apocalyptic Version

[ClocktowerEchos]

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Hehe, the image of armored rat people on horses is pretty funny. Probably don't use horses, though
Yes, something like the Mirelurk queen (but larger) perhaps. Who knows what the place can hold.

Humans on the other hand are still greedy and will do stupid things if it means they might get rich. If NJ ever makes it to one of the sludgelands, the government in whatever form it will take will probably have a bounty sort of system where independent actors enter the place and try to recover ancient technology or whatever, nominally under contract with the government. Let natural selection take its course, who ever comes back comes back, whoever doesn't doesn't. Once there's a considerable number of humans to expend, that is.

In the case of some dangerous wildlife being drawn out of the sludgelands, then the government would become more involved. Can't have giant crabs eating your tax base

As previously stated, very dependent on a lot of factors though. If NJ takes the Imperium of Man route, they might act similarly to the rats.

@rezay

Still deciding what they actually ride. Right now I'm torn between giant rats, drake-lizards, wolves or something else. On the discord I joked about riding Deathclaws which as cool as that would be, is probably unlikely. However I could see them using an especially large animal as a sort of battle platform with a howda full of archers or a ballista (or gunners in the far future).

Highwarren is no stranger to battle and given its a monarchy partially based on martial strength, the King defeating the monsters from the muck would only strengthen his claim and legitimacy. No doubt you'd have quest takers and adventurers trying to go in and probably getting themselves killed. Some young hot headed squire or knight errant might try to run in and show his skill and likely get killed in the process but returning with the body of a beast or tech would certainly propel you up the ranks of nobility.

[rezay]

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Still deciding what they actually ride. Right now I'm torn between giant rats, drake-lizards, wolves or something else. On the discord I joked about riding Deathclaws which as cool as that would be, is probably unlikely. However I could see them using an especially large animal as a sort of battle platform with a howda full of archers or a ballista (or gunners in the far future).

Highwarren is no stranger to battle and given its a monarchy partially based on martial strength, the King defeating the monsters from the muck would only strengthen his claim and legitimacy. No doubt you'd have quest takers and adventurers trying to go in and probably getting themselves killed. Some young hot headed squire or knight errant might try to run in and show his skill and likely get killed in the process but returning with the body of a beast or tech would certainly propel you up the ranks of nobility.

@ClocktowerEchos

Well, probably whatever the furfolk were using, right? Since they originally joined together. Any livestock they cultivate would have to be something inherited from the furfolk, or taken from whatever pre-apocalypse domesticated animals survived.

This makes me wonder exactly how many years it's been since the apocalypse. I imagine it's between one and two centuries, or at least that's what I went with in the backstory of the NJ.
That's not a lot of time to domesticate animals from scratch, but having livestock be half-wild would be cool for the ratkin.

I personally like the idea of lizards. Ever played Dwarf Fortess? Something like beak dogs might be good too.

Beak dogs

*It would be cool to have one of each too. A smaller animal as well as a big elephant thing

*For comparison, NJ has: horses, donkeys (and thus mules), sheep, goats, chickens, and pigs. Nothing crazy there
All from what managed not to die in the apocalypse (they don't have a lot of animals, and so they're a highly valued asset), NJ had to relearn (in large part) how to manage livestock, but they've basically got it down now. They have had the better part of a century to do so.

[Dark Cloud]

@rezay I haven't played DF but I use another forum where it's from.

[ClocktowerEchos]

@rezay I actually considered beakdogs but the two legs thing doesn't seem that great when your main tactic involved cavalry charges. Elkbird looks cool as hell though. I'm now actually considering mutated fennic foxes that already survive in the desert. Have them grow a bit larger, maybe add in jackalope-style antlers and that could be a very distinctive and stylish animal. Would also provide some luxurious fur and antlers for decoration. Call em Fenjak Foxes or Chimera Foxes and give them some more mutations.

[rezay]

@ClocktowerEchosWhen New Jericho gets a little bigger and more wealthy, the rich humans might also pay a pretty penny for some nice giant mutated fox fur :D

Come to think of it, NJ will likely make substantial use of cavalry, as their level of technology is basically early/mid-19th century currently. Interesting if they and the rat knights met on the field of battle

*I VOTE FOR THE NAME FENJACKS.

Or Jackofens...

[ClocktowerEchos]

@ClocktowerEchosWhen New Jericho gets a little bigger and more wealthy, the rich humans might also pay a pretty penny for some nice giant mutated fox fur :D

Come to think of it, NJ will likely make substantial use of cavalry, as their level of technology is basically early/mid-19th century currently. Interesting if they and the rat knights met on the field of battle

*I VOTE FOR THE NAME FENJACKS.

Or Jackofens...

@rezay

Still working on what exact trade goods Highwarren can even produce.

Also by the 1800's cavalry was on its way out as a primary fighting force or focus. Most armies had already made the move towards infantry and line battles. If you have that tech and the industrial capacity, focusing on cavalry would require something actively blocking the adoption of infantry focused tactics.

[rezay]

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Still working on what exact trade goods Highwarren can even produce.

Also by the 1800's cavalry was on its way out as a primary fighting force or focus. Most armies had already made the move towards infantry and line battles. If you have that tech and the industrial capacity, focusing on cavalry would require something actively blocking the adoption of infantry focused tactics.

@ClocktowerEchos

Well, that's the thing, NJ doesn't have the industrial capacity. Not yet at least. When they do eventually have the industry, they'll probably be stuck with rifled musket-type small arms for a long time. Somewhere in the 1820s to early 50s is where NJ is at.
They'll have to re-develop the last century and a half of firearms design, helped along by old world technology to make it more like a few decades.
Then again, maybe cavalry won't be so big. It relies on a wealth of other industries that are very specialized, advanced knowledge of which is not likely to have survived the apocalypse— saddle making, etc. Strapping a horse to a cart is probably easier than an artisan making a saddle to ride one. I imagine when they do ride horses, they do so bareback.

*I'm not exaggerating when I call NJ an upstart shantytown. There's nothing there but fishermen and farmers (for now). All the iron they source from the ruins, salvaging rebar from old reinforced concrete and such. There are maybe 3 blacksmiths (as in specialists where that's their only job and they are masters) in the entire town. Not much industry to be waging war on something like a US Civil War scale.

They have a handful of firearms from the old world (revolvers from bunker security forces), which is all I could think of helping along their weapons technology in the short term.

*Important to consider, how would they re-invent smokeless powder? How would they re-invent black powder for that matter? I imagine they'd have to recover that knowledge from the ruins somehow. Might ask GM. The guns they have they can only use because of ancient stocks of ammunition scavenged from the ruins.

[Dark Cloud]

I'd like to see what happens as it happens.

[rezay]

@AdorableSaucer Here's a good question for NJ which I'd like to run by you, could they know how to make gunpowder? Is there a way they could have feasibly attained that knowledge? If so, do they jump straight to smokeless or are they stuck on black powder? They know what guns are, so the idea's there at least.

Also, about resource extraction. I assume that we have the ability to explore for natural deposits of certain resources? Like iron, among other things. Some of us, at least, I doubt there're many resources to be extracted from the desert.

Sorry for the 20 questions, but I think this is probably important. There's the potential that firearms are some arcane technology they can't wrap their heads around

[rezay]

I'd like to see what happens as it happens.

@Dark Cloud

True, me as well, but I'm trying to establish a starting point for NJ, in terms of weapons technology. This is actually a very good topic, I forgot about asking that question. I'd just assumed that NJ would have that technology and would be able to replicate it once they had the industry to. Perhaps not

[Dark Cloud]

I mean, I just want to go with the flow of things.

[rezay]

@Dark CloudMe as well, me as well. I just don't know if the GM's okay with that. Probably, right? Gunpowder's not that hard. Especially if you have knowledge of what gunpowder is an what guns are

*And, we're sorta stuck at this point in the RP, the flow's already disrupted a bit

[ClocktowerEchos]

Well, that's the thing, NJ doesn't have the industrial capacity. Not yet at least. When they do eventually have the industry, they'll probably be stuck with rifled musket-type small arms for a long time. Somewhere in the 1820s to early 50s is where NJ is at.
They'll have to re-develop the last century and a half of firearms design, helped along by old world technology to make it more like a few decades.
Then again, maybe cavalry won't be so big. It relies on a wealth of other industries that are very specialized, advanced knowledge of which is not likely to have survived the apocalypse— saddle making, etc. Strapping a horse to a cart is probably easier than an artisan making a saddle to ride one. I imagine when they do ride horses, they do so bareback.

@rezay

Its actually harder make a cart than a saddle. You could technically just throw a carpet on the back of a horse and ride it, then maybe use like special boots with spurs like the cowboys to steer it. Even then making a basic saddle isn't that hard. Cart making is its own entire thing since that requires a good deal of math to actually be able to make circular wheels, strong enough axels and good enough construction so the thing doesn't fall apart when it hits a hole.

*I'm not exaggerating when I call NJ an upstart shantytown. There's nothing there but fishermen and farmers (for now). All the iron they source from the ruins, salvaging rebar from old reinforced concrete and such. There are maybe 3 blacksmiths (as in specialists where that's their only job and they are masters) in the entire town. Not much industry to be waging war on something like a US Civil War scale.

@rezay

To be fair, I assume most people are glorified shanty towns at the moment.

They have a handful of firearms from the old world (revolvers from bunker security forces), which is all I could think of helping along their weapons technology in the short term.

*Important to consider, how would they re-invent smokeless powder? How would they re-invent black powder for that matter? I imagine they'd have to recover that knowledge from the ruins somehow. Might ask GM. The guns they have they can only use because of ancient stocks of ammunition scavenged from the ruins.

@rezay

100+ years might be asking a bit much for old revolvers, especially if they haven't' been treated well. Also consider this: what are you trying to learn from them? The firing mechanism? Well you can learn that but then you'd need to learn about the bullet. You likely have no idea what combination of chemicals the powder is made of and forget about the primer's materials. That's generally the thing that just because you have a thing doesn't mean you can fully remake it. You have no idea the type or quality of metal used to make the gun and if you did know, you probably don't have the facilities to make it yourself. This is something you see when people ask why didn't X country just remake Y country's stuff in WW2? Its because looking at a tank hull gives you jack shit in the processes used to make that tank hull.

Also doesn't gunpowder like go bad after a while? If its been a century at least then I can't imagine a lot of it would be advisable to use.

[Dark Cloud]

The flow is just fine, I'm just patiently waiting.

[rezay]

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Its actually harder make a cart than a saddle. You could technically just throw a carpet on the back of a horse and ride it, then maybe use like special boots with spurs like the cowboys to steer it. Even then making a basic saddle isn't that hard. Cart making is its own entire thing since that requires a good deal of math to actually be able to make circular wheels, strong enough axels and good enough construction so the thing doesn't fall apart when it hits a hole.

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To be fair, I assume most people are glorified shanty towns at the moment.

<Snipped quote by rezay>

100+ years might be asking a bit much for old revolvers, especially if they haven't' been treated well. Also consider this: what are you trying to learn from them? The firing mechanism? Well you can learn that but then you'd need to learn about the bullet. You likely have no idea what combination of chemicals the powder is made of and forget about the primer's materials. That's generally the thing that just because you have a thing doesn't mean you can fully remake it. You have no idea the type or quality of metal used to make the gun and if you did know, you probably don't have the facilities to make it yourself. This is something you see when people ask why didn't X country just remake Y country's stuff in WW2? Its because looking at a tank hull gives you jack shit in the processes used to make that tank hull.

Also doesn't gunpowder like go bad after a while? If its been a century at least then I can't imagine a lot of it would be advisable to use.

@ClocktowerEchos

They're very well treated 100 year old revolvers. Almost never fired, there weren't many situations like that that arose in the bunkers (not the ones that made it to the days of New Jericho, at least. Using lethal weaponry on people in such a small community is likely to stir up an awful lot of trouble). They're also highly corrosion-resistant, being made in a society advanced enough for the megacities the size of what we see on the map

In regards to:
"Its actually harder make a cart than a saddle. You could technically just throw a carpet on the back of a horse and ride it, then maybe use like special boots with spurs like the cowboys to steer it. Even then making a basic saddle isn't that hard. Cart making is its own entire thing since that requires a good deal of math to actually be able to make circular wheels, strong enough axels and good enough construction so the thing doesn't fall apart when it hits a hole."

Sure, but that's not really a saddle. Don't get me wrong, bareback/saddle-less cavalry was a thing, but it's considerably more difficult. Saddle-making, even in the modern day, is the job of an artisan, because they're tailored to each horse's back. It's not the largest issue, though, that would be how valuable horses are at this stage in development.

I don't buy wheels are hard to make though. You can make a near-perfect circle by putting a peg in a board, tying a piece of string to it, and tracing a circle on the board. Find a straight and thick enough stick and that will be a sufficient axel. Carts, even well made ones, always run the substantial risk of breaking an axel or something by running into a hole, the trick is to avoid the holes. And the Jerichians have some mathematical knowledge, they're descended from the wealthiest of the old world, who were fairly intelligent and had jobs that required them to be good at math.

Yes, I suppose most people are shanty-towns. But for guns to be put to their best use, they have to be made en-masse, their biggest advantage being you don't need to train for a decade and a half to use one competently. Also, you need the population to field large armies, which NJ doesn't have, being a shantytown.

*Should clarify that the revolvers have been rarely fired after the Jerichians got out of the bunkers. There's not a lot of room for mischief in this situation. If you're a criminal delinquent, you get scapegoated to the southern wastes.

[Dog]

Don't forget we gonna relearn how to do warfare too. Most military science and theoretical works were lost.

[rezay]

Don't forget we gonna relearn how to do warfare too. Most military science and theoretical works were lost.

@Dog

Yes, very important. I imagine a lot of it is self explanatory/ingrained into human nature, but some finer points will take some time to relearn. Interesting story potential. Logistics especially will be hard.

*I don't imagine ALL books/sources were lost, necessarily. There's probably some of that still sitting around, will have to verify with the GM though. Maybe not, maybe something that should be left up to whatever we find out in-RP.

[ClocktowerEchos]

They're very well treated 100 year old revolvers. Almost never fired, there weren't many situations like that that arose in the bunkers (not the ones that made it to the days of New Jericho, at least. Using lethal weaponry on people in such a small community is likely to stir up an awful lot of trouble). They're also highly corrosion-resistant, being made in a society advanced enough for the megacities the size of what we see on the map

@rezay

Not fired =/= well maintained.
You still need oiling and replacement parts and regular cleaning which I admit you could probably manage in a peaceful bunker.

Yes, I suppose most people are shanty-towns. But for guns to be put to their best use, they have to be made en-masse, their biggest advantage being you don't need to train for a decade and a half to use one competently. Also, you need the population to field large armies, which NJ doesn't have, being a shantytown.

@rezay

You don't need an army of 500 people to go raid and attack other people. "War" on this scale is more akin to raiding and large skirmishes. If you have these super well kept modern revolvers, you don't need to field them en masse since they'd be accurate enough to hit things from a long way away unlike the pipe muskets most people would likely end up making at first.

Although I do have an interesting question regarding population growth @AdorableSaucer, how would we get large population growths? Do we just assume there's a population of teenagers just waiting to become adults the next turn? Or will their be opportunities to vassalize/incorporate NPC factions into our own or like, accepting migrants.

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Yes, very important. I imagine a lot of it is self explanatory/ingrained into human nature, but some finer points will take some time to relearn. Interesting story potential. Logistics especially will be hard.

*I don't imagine ALL books/sources were lost, necessarily. There's probably some of that still sitting around, will have to verify with the GM though

@rezay

Humans are good at killing each other, not necessarily good at doing war though. You have to remember, we think some things as obvious because we have hindsight and a wealth of knowledge available to us. Line formations was once considered revolutionary and pulling off maneuvers like hit and run, bait and switch or even flanking can be surprisingly difficult. Part of modern military training is specifically designed to teach soldiers how to do battle beyond "shoot that dude".

Also books can start to look like shit after one year of mishandling. Books being mistreated for a hundred years well... unless you have some very dedicated librarians and book keepers, you probably are going to be missing a lot of pages.

[rezay]

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Not fired =/= well maintained.
You still need oiling and replacement parts and regular cleaning which I admit you could probably manage in a peaceful bunker.

<Snipped quote by rezay>

You don't need an army of 500 people to go raid and attack other people. "War" on this scale is more akin to raiding and large skirmishes. If you have these super well kept modern revolvers, you don't need to field them en masse since they'd be accurate enough to hit things from a long way away unlike the pipe muskets most people would likely end up making at first.

Although I do have an interesting question regarding population growth @AdorableSaucer, how would we get large population growths? Do we just assume there's a population of teenagers just waiting to become adults the next turn? Or will their be opportunities to vassalize/incorporate NPC factions into our own or like, accepting migrants.

@ClocktowerEchos

Well, the only reason parts break is because of use, or rough handling one way or another. A piece of steel doesn't really decide to break itself in half. Sure, given enough time, it's eventually going to decay to the point that it's unusable, but when I say guns that have almost never been fired, I mean they've been fired never, or a handful of times. I'm not even saying they work flawlessly, when I had the MJN around I specified that the guns were pieces of junk which were only kept running by jury-rigged repairs. Same thing here.

Sure, it's small scale for now, but in the future it might not be, it depends on what the GM wants. But the point stands that in this environment, guns might not be super useful. Again, biggest advantage is being to deploy more troops for less, and if you only have the population to field the same number of guys as your enemy, a musket might not help. Things will develop, remember population growth is exponential, in addition to absorbing NPC factions or whatever
As mentioned, the guns they have A) are few in number, less than 20 B) are not well-maintained (they used to be, which is the only reason why they're able to be used). Also, if all you can make is black powder, the barrel of a gun made to use smokeless (especially if it's ancient) might explode. Also, what you do need super advanced math for is to make the machines that make bullet casings to acceptable quality, which is a long ways off if feasible at all. So with such limited stocks of ammunition and zero reloading machines, that's a big issue. Still waiting for the GM's word on the gunpowder situation

[Dog]

Yes, very important. I imagine a lot of it is self explanatory/ingrained into human nature, but some finer points will take some time to relearn. Interesting story potential. Logistics especially will be hard.

@rezay

modern warfare is extremely complex. Command and control, logistics, military formations, etc, are all apart of conducting large-scale military operations. But at this stage, warfare is nothing more than raiding and extremely small skirmishes.