From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

[Letter Bee]

@Pagemaster
Precisely. I figured we'd set the bar pretty low already, thus my version of Japan here would slot in just fine. Ultimately, I think there are some double standards at play here.

@Lady Lascivious

Please don't accuse me of pursuing a double standard to benefit myself. I genuinely thought that my take on Muhammad Ali's Egypt was perfectly plausible, more plausible than a female peasant leader taking over Japan with no support from the elites or the Emperor using his moral authority against her and modernizing the country. If it isn't, I apologize, but I already brought forth evidence that my alternate history was at least at the outer edges of plausibility.

Nevertheless, if the premise of the RP is irreparably implausible and proven to be so, then I will drop my argument. As it is, however, I already gave you my counterargument and it hasn't been disproved yet.

[Letter Bee]

@Lady Lasciviousagreed, a desire to make Egypt powerful. Perhaps if there is some rework allowed, it would be good. I’m willing to play 1840’s Britain, but she’s going to be far more powerful than historical Britain since the British theory was they would always be more powerful than the next two navies combined.

@Pagemaster

Which is okay. I am not opposing that. And Egypt is not a world power even here. It is not even as powerful as 1847 Ottomans, just better off than IRL.

[DELETED32084]

@Letter Bee, I honestly think a Japanese female peasant is more realistic than Britain just going “Sure Egypt, you can have this insanely vital trade route, go crazy! No way this could possibly go wrong!”

Also, Egypt with ships of the line? Please. That’s like giving Brasil battleships in Second World War.

Nothing against Egypt being a thing, but it wouldn’t be a decent power, barely even a regional one.

[Antediluvixen]

I honestly think a Japanese female peasant is more realistic than Britain just going “Sure Egypt, you can have this insanely vital trade route, go crazy! No way this could possibly go wrong!”

@Pagemaster

Suez Crisis intensifies

[Letter Bee]

@Letter Bee, I honestly think a Japanese female peasant is more realistic than Britain just going “Sure Egypt, you can have this insanely vital trade route, go crazy! No way this could possibly go wrong!”

Also, Egypt with ships of the line? Please. That’s like giving Brasil battleships in Second World War.

Nothing against Egypt being a thing, but it wouldn’t be a decent power, barely even a regional one.

@Pagemaster

Except that Britain didn't give Egypt the Suez in this timeline. It was the reverse, Egypt gave Britain the Suez, to build a canal with, and that's why Britain made concessions to it.

And Egypt had Ships of the Line IRL before 1840. See the Battle of Navarino, where Egypt got its Ships of the Line destroyed, but then managed to replace them in the years afterward.

And Egypt is just barely a regional power - I didn't contradict that.

I edited this post to add clarifications, btw.

[DELETED32084]

@Letter Beeokie dokie.

[Letter Bee]

@Letter Beeokie dokie.

@Pagemaster

And while we're at it, Muhammad Ali of Egypt was a real person, not an original character, and he did embark on a modernization program for Egypt before his IRL misfortunes in 1840.

Edit: I deleted this second set of lines because it was not called for at all.

[Letter Bee]

Okay, that last part was unwarranted. I am issuing a pre-emptive apology for my phrasing and the unnecessary rudeness and toxicity. I am sorry for going too far while defending myself from the accusations set before me.

[Letter Bee]

@Lady Lascivious, @Pagemaster, @Richard Horthy, @Wernher:

I'm sorry for mistrusting you guys and assuming the worst about you, while at the same time, I was presuming that you assumed the worst about me. I am also sorry if I gave the impression that this was a low-plausibility Nation Roleplay when I never intended for that and genuinely thought that my own Point of Divergence worked. Please forgive me for my tone, phrasing, and rudeness, as well as the unintentional double standard set by the RP and Nation premise.

I ask for your forgiveness, as well as to listen to me when I say that I never intended to godmode or turn Egypt into anything more than a regional power in this universe.

Either way, I'll be trying for either a more plausible PoD in the future or an outright fantasy or sci-fi premise, assuming that this RP really is low-plausibility...

[Wernher]

Its Victorian era claims, like Russia claiming overlordship over all slavs because muh panslavism. If something can come out of said claims is another thing entirely.

Aaaanyways. What now? Does this apology means an agreement to loosen the rules or that you're sorry that this isnt what most had in mind? I'm still in. Who else is?

[Letter Bee]

Its Victorian era claims, like Russia claiming overlordship over all slavs because muh panslavism. If something can come out of said claims is another thing entirely.

Aaaanyways. What now? Does this apology means an agreement to loosen the rules or that you're sorry that this isnt what most had in mind? I'm still in. Who else is?

@Wernher

Ah, understood.

It's 'sorry that this isn't what most had in mind', but I am willing to loosen the rules if 1.) it's what most remaining players here want, and 2.) if it's proven that Muhammad Ali's achievements in this RP are not a plausible continuation of his IRL achievements.

Or I could just run an Elder Scrolls or A Song of Ice and Fire Nation Roleplay; that is also an option.

[Eldritch Puppy]

I think that a compromise can be reached without throwing your nation concepts out the window.

@Letter Bee I could see Britain making a deal with Egypt, but you should make it clear that they got some pretty hefty guarantees from Muhammad Ali that the Suez canal will be under their control, not Egypt's. Maybe ceding the bit of territory that is the canal to the British directly.

@Lady Lascivious I would suggest that, as mentioned before, Japan was swept by a particularly virulent plague that left Japanese society prone to rebellion. With so many people dead, it could justify women getting a more prominent role in society in 19th century Japan.

[Letter Bee]

I think that a compromise can be reached without throwing your nation concepts out the window.

@Letter Bee I could see Britain making a deal with Egypt, but you should make it clear that they got some pretty hefty guarantees from Muhammad Ali that the Suez canal will be under their control, not Egypt's. Maybe ceding the bit of territory that is the canal to the British directly.

@Lady Lascivious I would suggest that, as mentioned before, Japan was swept by a particularly virulent plague that left Japanese society prone to rebellion. With so many people dead, it could justify women getting a more prominent role in society in 19th century Japan.

@Eldritch Puppy

I am receptive to your idea, especially as it is compatible with everything I said before.

Edit: And I'll accept the plague.

[Antediluvixen]

@Lady Lascivious I would suggest that, as mentioned before, Japan was swept by a particularly virulent plague that left Japanese society prone to rebellion. With so many people dead, it could justify women getting a more prominent role in society in 19th century Japan.

@Eldritch Puppy

Not super keen on a drastic population reduction, though. It kind of ruins any plans I might have had for joining in some jolly good wars on the continent if everyone's dead. My reasons for picking Japan was its relatively high population, and the high number of women who fought in the Sengoku period and even some insisting on fighting during the Boshin War and Satsuma Rebellions providing a lot of fun historical material to play with.

And I had no opposition to the original divergence whatsoever. I'm, well, the kind of person who wrote up basically Nazbol Japan for fuck's sake. My point was simply that I thought my proposal was perfectly sound with what, to me, seems a pretty damn unlikely scenario. Mine is, also, unlikely, yes. But I assumed that in a world where the British were willing to cede that much control to a non-European nation and the Austrians caving into super liberal ideas in the 1840s, it was perfectly reasonable.

[Letter Bee]

<Snipped quote by Eldritch Puppy>

Not super keen on a drastic population reduction, though. It kind of ruins any plans I might have had for joining in some jolly good wars on the continent if everyone's dead.

And I had no opposition to the original divergence whatsoever. I'm, well, the kind of person who wrote up basically Nazbol Japan for fuck's sake. My point was simply that I thought my proposal was perfectly sound with what, to me, seemed a pretty damn unlikely scenario. Mine is, also, unlikely, yes. But I assumed that in a world where the British were willing to cede that much control to a non-European nation and the Austrians caving into super liberal ideas in the 1840s, it was perfectly reasonable.

@Lady Lascivious

To be honest, I had worries about that last part, and it was my absolute limit or close to it.

As for the British willingness to cede that much control to Egypt, well, it helps that Egypt already had the land the British allowed them to keep. The British and the Ottomans were prepared to drive them off said land, but concessions were made to have the British betray the Ottomans and deal with Egypt as a (subordinate) partner instead.

I'm sure that the Wikipedia page for Muhammad Ali of Egypt said that he already controlled the territory he claimed and was about to overrun the Ottomans themselves.

[Antediluvixen]

<Snipped quote by Lady Lascivious>

To be honest, I had worries about that last part, and it was my absolute limit or close to it.

As for the British willingness to cede that much control to Egypt, well, it helps that Egypt already had the land the British allowed them to keep. The British and the Ottomans were prepared to drive them off said land, but concessions were made to have the British betray the Ottomans and deal with Egypt as a (subordinate) partner instead.

I'm sure that the Wikipedia page for Muhammad Ali of Egypt said that he already controlled the territory he claimed and was about to overrun the Ottomans themselves.

@Letter Bee

Again - I'm not arguing against it at all. I think it's unrealistic, and the British would oppose it as it would upset the balance of power in the region and destabilize things, as well as being greedy imperialistic little bastards. The conservative and traditionalist factions do not have the 20/20 vision of history with which to realize that would be by far the best deal they could get, and him ceding Crete and making other such concessions would, in my view, absolutely infuriate them, since such factions are rarely motivated by purely rational logic.

I assumed we were playing a setting that allowed more low probability stuff to occur - and "peasant rebellion lead by a military genius and supplied by Russia in exchange for one of their longest running strategic goals" didn't seem all that outlandish to me, to be honest.

EDIT: An alternative proposal. A bad harvest leads to severe food shortages and unrest, instead of a plague.

[Letter Bee]

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

Again - I'm not arguing against it at all. I think it's unrealistic, and the British would oppose it as it would upset the balance of power in the region and destabilize things, as well as being greedy imperialistic little bastards. The conservative and traditionalist factions do not have the 20/20 vision of history with which to realize that would be by far the best deal they could get, and him ceding Crete and making other such concessions would, in my view, absolutely infuriate them, since such factions are rarely motivated by purely rational logic.

I assumed we were playing a setting that allowed more low probability stuff to occur - and "peasant rebellion lead by a military genius and supplied by Russia in exchange for one of their longest running strategic goals" didn't seem all that outlandish to me, to be honest.

@Lady Lascivious

1.) Yes. But if the British are mollified by the chance of an earlier Suez Canal, then that ought to buy the Sultanate of Egypt time to violently suppress the conservative/traditionalist factions, at least in theory. The idea is still problematic, but there's still a thin thread of plausibility which makes it a gamble, not an impossibility.

2.) The game was not meant to be 'low-probability'. You say my idea is implausible due to the British being bastards (which I already addressed in the premise) and the conservative/traditionalist factions in the Sultanate of Egypt being prepared to rebel because of that (when they have been violently suppressed before in Palestine itself). Well, I think your idea is implausible because Japan has been under a long period of stability and peace, the Tokugawa have had experience with suppressing peasant revolts, and Russia, which has not even freed its own serfs, would betray the peasant rebels eventually once they show too great an enthusiasm for ideological egalitarianism.

If anything, why wouldn't Russia sell out the rebels, if they do make headway, in exchange for the Shogunate giving them Nagasaki? And the Japanese people have their own conservative/traditionalist factions which would be angry at concessions involving ceding or leasing Home Islands Japanese territory to outside powers, including the Emperor himself - A disadvantage far outweighing potential internal opposition among the Egyptians in the Sultanate.

[Letter Bee]

EDIT: An alternative proposal. A bad harvest leads to severe food shortages and unrest, instead of a plague.

@Lady Lascivious

That is much better. I was about to propose it.

Sorry for the double post.

[Antediluvixen]

@Letter Bee
I mean, again, I am aware of the numerous areas where they could likely have been sold out by the Russians - though I think the Tokugawa Shogunate's "Expel the foreigners" ideology would not have tolerated handing Nagasaki over to the Russians in any way, shape, or form. They forbade the construction of ocean going ships on pain of death and only allowed the Dutch to enter Nagasaki, I doubt they'd let a different country take control altogether.

That is to say, yeah, it's fairly unlikely. Maybe it could have happened. Probably not. I would argue mine, likewise, has a "thin thread of possibility" that makes it a fun concept to explore. If I wanted to argue for a dry academic take on the "most likely" route for history to take I wouldn't be on a forum RP board I'd be arguing against a bunch of old men who still insist on having things faxed to them instead of emailed.

Bad harvest is good with me if it is with you. It avoids the population crash issue of a plague. It provides context for the land reforms, as well as extra motivation for wanting to seize more land outside of Japan.

[Letter Bee]

Bad harvest is good with me if it is with you. It avoids the population crash issue of a plague. It provides context for the land reforms, as well as extra motivation for wanting to seize more land outside of Japan.

@Lady Lascivious

Bad harvests or maybe a series of them works. That said, once Russia figures out that the 'New Shogun' can't be manipulated easily, they'd probably turn against her or try to undermine her.