[OOC] Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

[Wilted Rose]

Yeah. I mostly just went on about this so it'd be easier for people less knowledgeable to write jets better, or people more knowledgeable to help me understand Jets more.

[Dinh AaronMk]

On the jets: yes, at this point in time they're going to be kept in the hands of China, Spain and the US. The general presumption being that these three nations are the only ones with the industrial capacity to produce them. But when it comes down to China they pretty much technically stole the tech from the US. They went through an engagement with the US over the Philippines in the 70's during which they managed to shoot down a few US planes, then dragged the wrecks back to mainland China and duplicated what they could restore. As it technically stands the theory and even the design of jet aircraft exists. The concept came up in the late 19th century actually, but was unsustainable because no country at the time had the knowledge of, or production capability to produce the high-temp steels or metals needed to do it. In this timeline much of what would have been the center for this sort of development (Europe) suffered so much from the Great War and post-war effects and general instability that any funding or industrial capacity put towards development of these things was crippled or became nonexistent. In this regards Spain was able - in theory, unless Googer says anything - was somehow able to take advantage of the situation and spring board its way to being "almost US tier" (if not that) and get the capacity to do jets. The US was left industrially intact and could pull it off. And China running on potential just tears apart corpses and remakes it. So that explains that if it needs it. Of course, the proliferation of this technology comes down to the willingness of any of them to share and the willingness of any party potentially tipping the balance of power with distributing these weapons. OOC we were just tired of the Top Gun try-harding and Gorgen said it's what he wanted when he set off. But let it happen when it happened. So we all voted to retcon out Jets as the backbone of an air force. The same logic as with jets applies to computers and nukes. The historical divergence and all of that would have lead to either the deaths of key RL figures to delay or stunt growth in these sectors. And any and all economic and social damage as an effect of the Great War and the post-war rippled out to discourage funding in these areas in the name of austerity. For guns, vehicles, and all of that then the common line of questioning goes something like this: Did it exist in the period? If yes, did it rely on computers in anyway (battleships, tanks, aircraft, etc)? If yes, did these computers take up a warehouse? If yes, it can be done. Alternatively you could replace instances of "computer" with "transistor" and basically have the same effect, canceling out a lot of radio technology and over-all effective radar and other guidance technologies. And that's sweeping through the surface. But things like fax technology exists, since that was developed out in the 19th century and not strictly reliant on computers. So it's still possible to fax some things. It'd just be really slow and rudimentary. I'm sure Vilage and Googer might have more to add to this too if either one of them steps in. But beyond sort of "game-y" explinations it can be styled as: Spitfires are cooler than F-16's.

[Meiyuuhi]

From a logical time-divergence point of view, my only issue with the stunted technology growth is that even if those key figures in Europe might have died, others not just in Europe but the rest of the world would have risen to take their place. Most technological innovations were made by various people independently, and then only after it became important people would figure out who did it first. Not to mention North America with practically equal technology and South America/Australia only a bit behind that of Europe, which suffered no such destruction. Admittedly many nations don't have a lot of scientists/are fairly undeveloped (like my own), but Canada, America, and Australia would have been the primary nations pushing things along, and even a lack of economic development doesn't mean a lack of technological progress. Just my two cents on the subject.

[Dinh AaronMk]

At the same time we got a war that lasted far longer than it had any right too. So it's not the only sin on our list for psuedo-retro sci-fi somethings. We decided that things would need to be adjusted to account for multiple nullified factors created in this world. And it was done. Which is not to say that you're wrong. China did complete research into transistors (ECGs) on their own. But in this world it really comes down to what the relevant parties had in mind or where they were going. Jet aircraft, rockets, or advancing computer sciences may not have seemed relevant to anyone before the 70's. And the wider global effects of war sweeping the international community we could tag it under the lampshade that is labeled "handicapping everything".

[Pepperm1nts]

I do think the stunted technology goes too far, to be honest. I find it real hard to believe that a few dead scientists and a long war is enough to set the world back over fifty years. Especially considering a lot of the scientists that made a lot of the cut tech happen are probably around somewhere in Germany. I'll be honest, a lot of the justification for the stunted tech is very weak and unfounded. I sort of understand why it's in place, but it doesn't by any means make sense given the scale of this technological blackout. I have sort of rolled with it (though I do remember complaining for at least two pages back in MCF), and am okay with continuing to roll with it, but yeah, I don't really buy it. You are really grasping at straws when you try to justify it with a few dead scientists and a long war. EDIT: It's especially hard to understand the argument when you realize that China has fuckin' satellites, but because a few scientists died in Europe and they had to fight a war for a few extra years, Europeans are stuck in 1950 for life.

[Dinh AaronMk]

EDIT: It's especially hard to understand the argument when you realize that China has fuckin' satellites, but because a few scientists died in Europe and they had to fight a war for a few extra years, Europeans are stuck in 1950 for life.

@Pepperm1nts

Because Europe doesn't really have much of a mineral based economy and they can't one stop shop. Besides, even today the only way Europe has been to space is to collectively put all their resources into the same pot, unlike the US (which I believe had low or outdated military spending in this RP until the first North American War) or China which in covering a lot of geographic territory contain a lot of natural resources. Satellite technology is in any event a side-effect of certain aims, if related. They didn't wake up and ask themselves, "Can we get to the moon?" Someone asked someone to look into getting their shit to fly higher. Prior to the Revolution they - like in real life - didn't have a developed industry and began to slowly evolve and build that afterwards. Perceived hostility to Communism as a lesson from the Bolshevik's defeat, exile, and imprisonment/executions in Russia contributed to a feeling they'd need to shut up and contain themselves and become self sufficient and then gird themselves against their enemies. And they have very extensive deposits on minerals across the nation. On the other hand, Europe was import reliant and much of its economy had evolved past producing iron. If we looked at the long-ass war in a realist's light then we might come to the conclusion that it would have sucked everything bone dry. So collectively they wouldn't have the minerals to put towards advanced programs and nothing happened after the fact to create a common political and economic pact over Europe that would allow them to work across national borders as Europe does now to get into space. And no threat from the Soviets meant the US - while dealing with a considerable sum of internal issues - didn't feel compelled to try and keep its place as a top competitor (as well as them not intervening in Europe and spreading their consumer base to the Europeans to get the economic edge they'd need). By about this time too South America would have most likely been a largely second-tier economy, an exporter of raw materials. There would've probably been minimal refining going on there. Agriculture would of been a large part of their work. Plus their general operations relied on foreign credit which would have become washed out later. So they wouldn't have the means or the focus. And with Africa slipping away from Europe and having gone all the way out by the seventies due in part to Ethiopia Europe would of lost its significant source of minerals. So the physical limitations are there. Things could have been proposed and theorized on paper but certainly couldn't get far past the design stage or manufacture. So refocusing of a nation's efforts to develop would have been done. Helicopters and the like. But the lack of computers, advanced rocketry, and nuclear theory has been from the start a closed door from the beginning for nations. In rocketry that didn't really get pursued into very late in Precipice's infancy years.

[Pepperm1nts]

That's not the damn point though. The point is that somehow the Chinese have the technological know-how to go to space, but Europeans don't have the know-how to make goddamn jets, all because a few scientists died and they had to fight a war for a few extra years. But backward-ass China's just fine. You're talking resources when I'm talking know-how. EDIT: I am not arguing Europeans should be in space too. I am arguing that if the Chinese can somehow reach space, Europeans ought to have some fuckin' jets. It doesn't make sense for them to be stunted like that while China's flying around in space. If China has the know-how for that, then the Europeans ought to have the know-how to build some goddamn jets, at the very least.

[Chapatrap]

Whatever the outcome of that struggle, the Blood of Solomon would be spilled across the last bastion of free Africans.

Gorgenmast

Good lord... I'm really enjoying this Spanish-Ethiopian War. You and Vilage are really making something cool here. Keep up the good work, lads.

[gorgenmast]

This is not about whether or not certain technology is plausible. The reason we've decided to curtail technological advancement was to provide an alternate universe NRP roughly at the Korean/Vietnam war technology level. Plausibility has been sacrificed to cut down on "gamey" bullshit - things like ballistic missiles, F-30gazillion jets, etc. In other words, technology that tends to encourage excessive militarism (big words coming from the guy behind Sotelo, I know) in players at a cost of the storytelling aspects of the time period. I originally came up with an extended WWI because I felt - at the time - it was the most plausible means of creating the sort of world that I envisioned for this roleplay. Aaron has only been following in that tradition and keeping people within the desired technologic scope. But I also realize that when I originally made this RP, I was anticipating Precipice to go on for perhaps a few months. Obviously, this roleplay vastly exceeded my original expectations. Hugs' comment that "Europe is stuck in 1950 forever" has some merit. As time progresses, I think we should consider some incremental advancements in technology. Precipice can't be stuck in the Korean War period forever, so some advances in areas like rocketry, computer technology, etc. are to be expected. But it's far too late in the game to be arguing that we should open the floodgates and let people have access to any piece of technology they want.

[Dinh AaronMk]

That's not the damn point though. The point is that somehow the Chinese have the technological know-how to go to space, but Europeans don't have the know-how to make goddamn jets, all because a few scientists died and they had to fight a war for a few extra years. But backward-ass China's just fine. You're talking resources when I'm talking know-how.

@Pepperm1nts

China and Asia has had a long history of rocketry. The Chinese were the first to develop rockets which were later introduced to Europe by the Mongols, who used them to shoot shit with; likewise in China. The concept bumped around Europe and the Middle east because of them, but they knew about rockets through China, and the Chinese have been using rockets in some way for a thousand years by this RP's point. There were additional uses of more advanced rockets in Asia/South-Asia. Mysore in India was the first to use iron-cast rockets against the invading British forces. So the Indian subcontinent as well had a grasp and understanding of rocketry. So much so it took the British by surprise when iron-cylinder explosives smashed them from the hurka-dirka, chicken-tika eaters. Another factor that would come into it is a diaspora of Russian intellectuals who fled to western China to get out of the reach of the Tzar. The Russians made some significant theoretical contributions to rocket technology in the early 20th century. Some - or many - of these university intellectuals may have no doubt been critical of the Czar and desired Republican reform, or Communist reform. Then had to get the hell out before they were exiled to Siberia or locked up or shot. Western China has been the sort of under-policed area of China for a while and would make for a target of interest, and what I use to explain the migration of Communism from Russia to China.

[Pepperm1nts]

Shit. If China had rockets thousands of years ago, then it's no wonder they were the leading contributor to modern rockets and space-flight! But they weren't. Not in real-life, at least. The fact that ancient Chinese had a limited understanding of rocketry meant jack-shit in real-life and we have very few reasons to think it would be any different in the PoW world. But I am not arguing you shouldn't have shit in space. I will grant that it is plausible. What I am arguing is that, if the Chinese were able to get their shit together (which is an exceedingly more impressive feat than Europe getting its shit together after the Great War), and somehow find the know-how to advance in rocketry, space, and reverse-engineer jets, then Europe, with the likes on Von Braun still kicking, should have had the know-how to make some goddamn jets, at the very least. I am not saying we should open up the floodgates, though. It's too late for that now. But let's stop bullshitting ourselves. And let's stop picking out the weakest, most irrelevant parts of someone's argument against the bullshit, to write up walls-of-text to try and justify the aforementioned bullshit further (like you did with your rant about resources for satellites, completely missing the point). Let's admit for a second that it's flawed as fuck to think that Europe ought to be as stunted as it is, and let's acknowledge that, at best, the stunted-world policy is our way of balancing shit. But it doesn't make sense.

[Vilageidiotx]

We do need to accept that Precipice has an aesthetic that comes down to just being an aesthetic. I always liked to imagine this as an internet version of the old dime-store pulp magazines from one hundred years ago, where realism is tossed away in favor of atmosphere. But Googer makes the most important point when it comes to weapons. Old Precipice suffered from that old NRP problem where everyone tries to outdo each other in OOC. That happened in the first Precipice, and it ended up looking like an independent Florida mining "Steel" straight from the ground to make top-tier jets and a world-class navy. Honestly, if we had started Precipice with some foresight, we probably would have limited the technology further, but back in the beginning of 2011 we didn't imagine it would last a year, let alone four. That meant that jets entered the storyline. When we came around to fixing the canon, we kept the parts where jets actually played a roll in the plot beyond masturbation. And this wasn't just us going around taking jets away from the people who aren't around as much. Up until last year, Ethiopia had some of the best jet tech in the world because, at one point, Florida randomly sold most of its planes to us for cheap. And I got rid of that because it was stupid. Weapons are not interesting enough to actually make the RP on their own. People need to learn how to be humble so that they will tell stories instead of jack off about themselves, and the best way to do that is to more or less force it where Spain and China are OP. If people are forced to play second fiddle to them no matter what, than maybe we can avoid the paper-tiger approach to nation-building that makes so many awkward unreadable plotlines. This is a world where The First World War lasts a decade, where one third of Africa becomes one country because of a little blackmail, where the US just suddenly starts to spite it's Imperialistic tendencies and stays in its own borders for no reason, where every single person in China is perfectly cool with it's authoritarian regime and that same regime is unnaturally benign, where Spain can be an industrial power, where Armenia matters... Precipice isn't realistic. That was never the point.

[Pepperm1nts]

Disregard

[Dinh AaronMk]

I figured Vilage would articulate it better. But going to the previous point of Hugs: even ancient China didn't have the metallurgy practice to fire off rockets like the V2 by the 16th century, and that sort of engineering wouldn't really come about for a while. And until that point they didn't really *need* it since they were one of the most sizable Empires in Asia and the most influential. And that also around that time the Ming were falling apart at the "heathen barbarians" of the Manchus were pulling them apart from the north; the Mandate of Heaven had demanded such. And by the time it would have mattered for them, it was too late and the Qing dynasty was confident in being ass backwards while western-educated progressives were running around Southern China. They had the concepts to do it, but the later Emperors and Cixi were pretty intent in their ways. Maybe Puyi would have fixed it, maybe. But he came far too late for the Empire's days. Could I have handled things differently in retrospect? Most likely. However Precipice is too far along and it's been agreed and sealed. I can explore things more since there's a lot of ground to cover and a whole era of the 60's to ponder over. But that's retrospective at this point.

[Vilageidiotx]

The Chinese, and later the Europeans who picked it up from them in the eighteenth century, used rockets a little. China didn't just shrug off rockets because they were too important for them, they didn't use them because the tech at the time made them way too unpredictable and therefore useless (just think back to when you've played with bottle rockets and you'll understand what I mean. You can aim that motherfucker, but it'll whistle back around and pop above your head if it feels like it). Rockets before the twentieth century fulfilled a primarily psychological role since they did at least make a lot of noise and explode dramatically. What the twentieth century brought was the ability to guide them enough to make them work. Also, where the fuck did my siggy go?

[Pepperm1nts]

I hope ya'll know your signature website password thing.

[Vilageidiotx]

I hope ya'll know your signature website password thing.

@Pepperm1nts

Yeh, why?

[Pepperm1nts]

Oh, well.. 'cause the site saves the link with all the images you have in your rotating sig, so you'd have to go hunting down all the images again if you lost it. Unless you have all the images saved anyway, I guess.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Restored.

[Rare]

I almost have my post done; but, I just got $20 steam card and $20 PSN card (I might spend it on eps. of glee or a new show). Looks like that I am able to get the last DLC on Victoria 2! What other games should I get that are like those games?