Your Political Ideology

[The Nexerus]

mdk said
America here. The natives didn't really benefit much. But for the rest of us, awesome.

The Natives would've ended up having it much better if not for the Yankee scum fighting against His Majesty's glorious empire.

[Jannah]

mdk said
America here. The natives didn't really benefit much. But for the rest of us, awesome.

Natives were genocided pretty badly too. I was reading recently that rewards were actually granted for their murder. I don't know how accurate that is, but given the circumstances it doesn't seem far-fetched at all. Also, I'm not solely blaming America here. Keep that in mind. Here in Canada similar shit occurred.

[Pepperm1nts]

The Nexerus said
The Natives would've ended up having it much better if not for the Yankee scum fighting against His Majesty's glorious empire.

That's debatable. But either way, the natives would've been robbed of their land and killed. And that's not very presentable when you're trying to argue colonization was good.

[The Nexerus]

Jannah said
It looks like somebody's blog, but it looks like it's still pretty well backed up with other sources.

I'm sorry, but that blog post is fucking laughable. They basically just tacked every death of an Indian during the British Raj onto a tally and then said, "Ya, Britain did all of that". Do you expect the British to make Indians immortal?

[Jannah]

The Nexerus said
I'm sorry, but that blog post is fucking laughable. They basically just tacked every death of an Indian during the British Raj onto a tally and then said, "Ya, Britain did all of that". Do you expect the British to make Indians immortal?

Hey, people use that same logic when trying to inflate any death toll. I realize the numbers in that blog are probably inflated, but to deny colonialism was responsible for genocide is no different from Holocaust denial.

[The Nexerus]

Pepperm1nts said either way, the natives would've been robbed of their land and killed.

That simply didn't happen. The worst the British did to Natives during peace time was forcibly relocate them to allow for settlement.

Also, I think Jannah needs to be educated as to the definition of the word 'genocide'.

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/Submit
noun
1.
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

The British didn't herd Indians next to mass graves and then deliver gunshots to their heads. Even if we pretend that the British Raj was full of soulless, sadistic, vile white people that horrifically oppressed the poor, innocent Indians, it would've been economically disadvantageous to start killing them off.

[mdk]

Jannah said
Natives were genocided pretty badly too. I was reading recently that rewards were actually granted for their murder. I don't know how accurate that is, but given the circumstances it doesn't seem far-fetched at all. Also, I'm not solely blaming America here. Keep that in mind. Here in Canada similar shit occurred.

Again, it's complicated. Indian tribes raided white villages *constantly*. You slept with a gun -- more than one, if you could afford it -- because at any time they might show up and rape your children and cut off your head (which became an embellished boogey-man story, absolutely, but one rooted in truth). So eventually patience ran out and the local governments started doing stuff about it, and that's when shit like the Trail of Tears went down. Atrocity is contagious like that.

Anyway if we're looking for examples of one-sided bad imperialism, you shouldn't focus on the Europeans. Check out your friendly local Empire of the Rising Sun. You wanna talk exploitation and atrocity, us good-natured white folk are hardly the baddest bullies on the block.

Jannah said
Hey, people use that same logic when trying to inflate any death toll. I realize the numbers in that blog are probably inflated, but to deny colonialism was responsible for genocide is no different from Holocaust denial.

'Probably inflated....' They counted up all the famines and reached 85 million (in a *huge* country, mind you) and decided that was 1.8 billion heads on the British doorstep. It's ludicrous.

[Jannah]

The Nexerus said
That simply didn't happen. The worst the British did to Natives during peace time was forcibly relocate them to allow for settlement.Also, I think Jannah needs to be educated as to the definition of the word 'genocide'.

Which is exactly what happened. I know what the word genocide means. I'm not an idiot. Don't patronize me.

[The Nexerus]

Jannah said
Which is exactly what happened. I know what the word genocide means. I'm not an idiot. Don't patronize me.

Natives were not systematically killed. The vast majority of Native death as a result of the Columbian Exchange occurred inadvertently via the spread of disease. What's more, it's impossible to get even a rough estimate of how many people died. Native societies weren't known for their intricate bureaucratic censuses.

[Jannah]

The Nexerus said
Natives were not systematically killed. The vast majority of Native death as a result of the Columbian Exchange occurred inadvertently via the spread of disease. What's more, it's impossible to get even a rough estimate of how many people died. Native societies weren't known for their intricate bureaucratic censuses.

Yea, deliberate spread of disease. That is genocide.

[Pepperm1nts]

The Nexerus said
The worst the British did to Natives during peace time was forcibly relocate them to allow for settlement

And how do you think that was done? Surely you don't think the natives gave up their land after losing friendly games of baseball, or something.

[Jannah]

Anyway, I'm out of here before I rage. I have gotten shit on this site before, leading to me actually being banned from the off-topic sections.

[The Nexerus]

Jannah said
Yea, deliberate spread of disease. That is genocide.

The first Europeans to make contact with Natives didn't even realize they were a danger to them. They didn't even know there was a potential for danger at all.

There is exactly one case of the infamous 'smallpox blankets' ever having been used, and it was during wartime, and documented only in a relatively contentious letter.

[mdk]

Jannah said
Yea, deliberate spread of disease. That is genocide.

Your source is wrong and you need to move on.

[The Nexerus]

Pepperm1nts said
And how do you think that was done?

Usually voluntarily, via treaty.

[Pepperm1nts]

But not always.

And that's all I said, before you disputed it. The English killed natives. It did happen.

[Jannah]

mdk said

I was talking about North America specifically there, but okay. Seriously though, I'm out of this discussion before I rage. It's really not a good idea for me to stick around here.

[mdk]

The Nexerus said
Usually voluntarily, via treaty.

Occasionally by Wounded Knee massacre (though again, that happened after the slaughter at the Alamo, and after the peaceful treaties were rejected, because real history doesn't have good guys).

[The Nexerus]

^ I'm talking about the British Empire, not the United States.

Pepperm1nts said
But not always.And that's all I said, before you disputed it. The English killed natives. It did happen.

Yes. When Natives and English warred, Natives died. That's what happens during a war. My point is that it wasn't genocide. The Natives weren't herded up afterwards and thrown into the sea. As I already said, the worst thing that ever happened was forced relocations.

[Pepperm1nts]

I never said the English tried to commit genocide. That's Jannah's deal. I'm just saying the English did kill natives, a lot. And not just during war time. You're making it seem like the British were these guys who played by the rules and never, ever did anything without justification. They weren't saints, let's at least acknowledge that.