Your Political Ideology

[Gwazi Magnum]

Now, normally I'd read through all this text and jump into the debate again.

But from what I scanned quickly when viewing this on my phone (Just so I'd have a better idea of what I was walking into later, when I do read it fully) it looks like this basically reduced to an argument/yelling match.

Am I right in this guess?
I don't want to bother investing several hours into catching up just to learn that the conversation steered away from being anything that's constructive anymore. :/

[The Nexerus]

Not really. Everyone has been pretty civil.

[mdk]

Jannah said
Video games are a poor example since they're exactly that, games. Real life is a lot different since real people are actually being harmed instead of virtual people.

That's what I mean though, too. There's plenty of people out there who think that playing too much GTA leads to school shootings -- obviously I think that's bunk, for a lot of good reasons, but the point is, 'X leads to violence' is not a good premise for making laws. Within reason. I mean we do the whole ESRB rating thing, but I'm not sure if that's taken seriously or not (no perspective, it started up after I was already like 20 or something and I don't have kids).

[Jannah]

Magnum, this has actually stayed surprisingly civil. That's quite an accomplishment for me since political discussions usually turn ugly pretty quickly when I'm involved unless it's with fellow left-wingers, which this one is not. There's just some things I'm way too emotional about, for reasons I won't get into here. I think everybody has at least one issue they feel that strongly about though.

mdk said That's what I mean though, too. There's plenty of people out there who think that playing too much GTA leads to school shootings -- obviously I think that's bunk, for a lot of good reasons, but the point is, 'X leads to violence' is not a good premise for making laws. Within reason. I mean we do the whole ESRB rating thing, but I'm not sure if that's taken seriously or not (no perspective, it started up after I was already like 20 or something and I don't have kids).

It's still a poor comparison though since many racist groups tend to be more violent than other groups. Hatred oftentimes fuels violence. I'm not saying every racist is violent, but it does happen. Many people don't realize it, but there's still very much institutionalized racism against coloured people in America, which makes them easier targets in many cases. African-Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people, for example. There also tends to be higher rates of poverty in black neighbourhoods, but that's getting a bit away from the main point now.

Also, with that said, I'm not inherently against violence as I do believe it has its uses, but one of those acceptable uses doesn't include beating up a black person simply because you don't like black people.

[mdk]

Jannah said
Magnum, this has actually stayed surprisingly civil. That's quite an accomplishment for me since political discussions usually turn ugly pretty quickly when I'm involved unless it's with fellow left-wingers, which this one is not. There's just some things I'm way too emotional about, for reasons I won't get into here. I think everybody has at least one issue they feel that strongly about though.It's still a poor comparison though since many racist groups tend to be more violent than other groups. Hatred oftentimes fuels violence. I'm not saying every racist is violent, but it does happen. Many people don't realize it, but there's still very much institutionalized racism against coloured people in America, which makes them easier targets in many cases. African-Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people, for example. There also tends to be higher rates of poverty in black neighbourhoods, but that's getting a bit away from the main point now.Also, with that said, I'm not inherently against violence as I do believe it has its uses, but one of those acceptable uses doesn't include beating up a black person simply because you don't like black people.

We're gonna go in circles a bit here, but let me direct you back to the previous question: Why can't we just have physical assault be illegal? What's the point of trying to legislate which attitudes are allowed and which aren't -- as if we could change that by putting something on paper?

[The Nexerus]

Jannah said Many people don't realize it, but there's still very much institutionalized racism against coloured people in America, which makes them easier targets in many cases. African-Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people, for example.

The only institutionalized racism in North America is against white people, via affirmative action. African Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people because African Americans are statistically more likely to engage in criminal activity.

[Pepperm1nts]

The Nexerus said
African Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people because African Americans are statistically more likely to engage in criminal activity.

I hope you mean that knowing that disadvantaged people, who as a result live in poverty, are more likely to turn to crime in order to make money. And not based on some belief that race makes certain groups more likely to be criminal or something.

If you mean the former, then yeah, maybe. But there is undeniable discrimination on part of law enforcement and, really, the justice system as a whole. Not every cop and judge, of course. But it's undeniable that blacks, especially, are often times targeted, which contributes to why black incarceration rates are significantly higher than any other group.

[mdk]

The Nexerus said
The only institutionalized racism in North America is against white people, via affirmative action. African Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people because African Americans are statistically more likely to engage in criminal activity.

There's also some documented racial disadvantages during sentencing, ceteris parabus. That's not necessarily an indicator of racism from the bench -- there's a lot of circumstances and every individual case is unique. Still, the stats certainly aren't doing anybody a favor.

[Gwazi Magnum]

In that case I'll set some time aside this weekend to try to catch up to this thread if it's still active by then.

[Jannah]

The Nexerus said
The only institutionalized racism in North America is against white people, via affirmative action. African Americans are more likely to get arrested than white people because African Americans are statistically more likely to engage in criminal activity.

And this is when I step out of this conversation due to risk of me resorting to flaming...

[The Nexerus]

^ Probably a good decision.

Pepperm1nts said
I hope you mean that knowing that disadvantaged people, who as a result live in poverty, are more likely to turn to crime in order to make money. And not based on some belief that race makes certain groups more likely to be criminal or something.If you mean the former, then yeah, maybe. But there is undeniable discrimination on part of law enforcement and, really, the justice system as a whole. Not every cop and judge, of course. But it's undeniable that blacks, especially, are often times targeted, which contributes to why black incarceration rates are significantly higher than any other group.

No, I don't think people from Africa are genetically predisposed to crime. The reasons are cultural, but that doesn't mean they're not real.

And I really, sincerely do not believe that there is any discrimination on the part of law enforcement or the judges outside of isolated cases going in either direction.

[ApocalypticaGM]

The Nexerus said
The only institutionalized racism in North America is against white people (1), via affirmative action. African Americans (2) are more likely to get arrested than white people because African Americans are statistically more likely to engage in criminal activity.

Jesus I hope you're trolling. Alright, before this is read, just know that statements like the above rank about an inch lower than pile a dog mess on a side-walk. I'm going to point out some serious notes where prejudice is clearly present in our system, but I'm also going to tear apart that perspective, because it simply must be trolling, but if it's not, I really cannot stand to allow it the time and patience of a thorough, point-by-point argument. Chances are with a perspective like this you may well not be sharing in order to have new views introduced -- I suspect you're probably just throwing out a grenade and waiting for the backlash. So here's mine.

Okay... hold on. So, let's talk about this for a moment. 1) White People refers to, oh, people who have white skin. 2) African American refers to people with roots leading back to Africa. First problem here is that you're not distinguishing parties in a way that makes sense. I say this because, an African American can be white, and can actually declare themselves as white too, but still be African. While being from Africa does have his associations, for example many just assume you hail from poverty, it is more the obvious distinction of a person being of colour or not, or of having some apparent sign of their "non-white" culture. There is institutionalized racism and oppression based on what group you hail from. Random example could be that people with white skin have committed numerous atrocities and genocides, shootings, bombings, and horrific killing sprees in the United States. Yet, somehow, anyone who is seemingly Arabic or perhaps Muslim is more apt to associated with such activities, and are much likelier to be pulled aside in airports or in some states (I'm looking at you, Arizona) to prove their citizenship. We could talk about the deaths after recent Stand Your Ground laws and the disproportionate number of cases where a person of colour is killed by a white person and it's ruled as self defence despite disturbing circumstances suggesting otherwise. There's of course media representation, which is actually accepted as a flaw by figures in the business, often depicting any of people of colour (beyond just African) in highly stereotypical, often demeaning ways. Oh, oh, shoot, I almost forgot the studies that have come up showing that charges related to drug possession often differ greatly depending on the ethnicity of the accused. Right, do you remember the inner city school full of mostly students of colour, Harper High? They're at 29 students shot, 8 killed by gun violence. They actually had pretty big shooting last year, but didn't receive much media attention -- yet other schools suffering the same, but with far less children hurt gained tons of attention, granted those were largely white, suburban schools.

See racism is ugly. Nobody gets behind pure, illogical hatred that leads to violence with no rhyme or reason. People followed Hitler, because it was empowering to shame another group and oppress them, especially in light of their severe humiliation not two decades prior. The most evil minds are all too often convinced that their actions make sense, and in that sense, they are free to do as they please. So obviously those parts of the system that perpetuate oppression and prejudice aren't going to blatantly identify their oppressive nature. They're going to act subtly, but the power dynamics will still be written and the pain still felt. I'm sure it's wonderful to be able to pass alongside the majority that are expected to have the most opportunity and be generally acceptable just from appearance. It must be nice not have people commenting on how exotic your hair is, or when you jewellery, ask what that means to your culture. Shoot, it must be extremely nice not to get pulled over by police while you walk to work in a hoodie and accused of selling drugs. I get that it's probably hard to see the prejudice when it's constantly aimed at you. I'm sure you've felt that sort of hate at some point in your life, and that experience is valid, absolutely. But in North America if you're of colour, you're a minority. And the simple fact is that nobody is going to defend your image, or you culture, or simply accept that you are an individual, without somehow noting your ethnicity, your race, or generally that superficial difference. I am so happy for you that prejudice is not a systematic problem in your world.

Woo.... Okay, that's out of my system and, honestly, it felt good. I usually hold my tongue when people say such blatantly asinine things, but there's a lapse. Enjoy!

[Jannah]

ShonHarris said
Jesus I hope you're trolling. Alright, before this is read, just know that statements like the above rank about an inch lower than pile a dog mess on a side-walk. I'm going to point out some serious notes where prejudice is clearly present in our system, but I'm also going to tear apart that perspective, because it simply must be trolling, but if it's not, I really cannot stand to allow it the time and patience of a thorough, point-by-point argument. Chances are with a perspective like this you may well not be sharing in order to have new views introduced -- I suspect you're probably just throwing out a grenade and waiting for the backlash. So here's mine. Okay... hold on. So, let's talk about this for a moment. 1) White People refers to, oh, people who have white skin. 2) African American refers to people with roots leading back to Africa. First problem here is that you're not distinguishing parties in a way that makes sense. I say this because, an African American can be white, and can actually declare themselves as white too, but still be African. While being from Africa does have his associations, for example many just assume you hail from poverty, it is more the obvious distinction of a person being of colour or not, or of having some apparent sign of their "non-white" culture. There institutionalized racism and oppression based on what group you hail from. Random example could be that people with white skin have committed numerous atrocities and genocides, shootings, bombings, and horrific killing sprees in the United States. Yet, somehow, anyone who is seemingly Arabic or perhaps Muslim is more apt to associated with such activities, and are much likelier to be pulled aside in airports or in some states (I'm looking at you, Arizona) to prove their citizenship. We could talk about the deaths after recent Stand Your Ground laws and the disproportionate number of cases where a person of colour is killed by a white person and it's ruled as self defence despite disturbing circumstances suggesting otherwise. There's of course media representation, which is actually accepted as a flaw by figures in the business, often depicting any of people of colour (beyond just African) in highly stereotypical, often demeaning ways. Oh, oh, shoot, I almost forgot the studies that have come up showing that charges related to drug possession often differ greatly depending on the ethnicity of the accused. Right, do you remember the inner city school full of mostly students of colour, Harper High? They're at 29 students shot, 8 killed by gun violence. They actually had pretty big shooting last year, but didn't receive much media attention -- yet other schools suffering the same, but with far less children hurt gained tons of attention, granted those were largely white, suburban schools. See racism is ugly. Nobody gets behind pure, illogical hatred that leads to violence with no rhyme or reason. People followed Hitler, because it was empowering to shame another group and oppress them, especially in light of their severe humiliation not two decades prior. The most evil minds are all too often convinced that their actions make sense, and in that sense, they are free to do as they please. So obviously those parts of the system that perpetuate oppression and prejudice aren't going to blatantly identify their oppressive nature. They're going to act subtly, but the power dynamics will still be written and the pain still felt. I'm sure it's wonderful to be able to pass alongside the majority that are expected to have the most opportunity and be generally acceptable just from appearance. It must be nice not have people commenting on how exotic your hair is, or when you jewellery, ask what that means to your culture. Shoot, it must be extremely nice not to get pulled over by police while you walk to work in a hoodie and accused of selling drugs. I get that it's probably hard to see the prejudice when it's constantly aimed at you. I'm sure you've felt that sort of hate at some point in your life, and that experience is valid, absolutely. But in North America if you're of colour, you're a minority. And the simple fact is that nobody is going to defend your image, or you culture, or simply accept that you are an individual, without somehow noting your ethnicity, your race, or generally that superficial difference. I am so happy for you that prejudice is not a systematic problem in your world. Woo.... Okay, that's out of my system and, honestly, it felt good. I usually hold my tongue when people say such blatantly asinine things, but there's a lapse. Enjoy!

Wow, you've hit the nail on the head. I agree with this entire rant almost 100%. I know I said I'm withdrawing from this discussion, but after reading this I just couldn't resist commenting again. It's also worth noting that I am white so am rather sheltered from racism, but I'm not quite so ignorant to deny it exists.

[The Nexerus]

ShonHarris said So, let's talk about this for a moment. 1) White People refers to, oh, people who have white skin. 2) African American refers to people with roots leading back to Africa. First problem here is that you're not distinguishing parties in a way that makes sense. I say this because, an African American can be white, and can actually declare themselves as white too, but still be African.

White people are European people. Black people are African people. When I say "European people" or "African people", I'm referring specifically to the original inhabitants of either continent (or at least what peoples are perceived as being the original inhabitants). For example: French, Germans, Hungarians, Finns, Italians, Greeks and so on would all be considered Europeans, and thus fit under the 'white' colour metaphor for European ethnicities. Somalians, Khoisans, Mandé and so on would all be considered Africans, and thus fit under the 'black' colour metaphor for African ethnicities. This system is imperfect; there are numerous ethnicities that could be argued to have not originated from either Europe or Africa, but are still generally considered either European or African. Contrastingly, numerous other ethnicities, some with histories going back in their respective continent hundreds of years (such as the Boers), are generally /not/ considered to be an ethnicity native to the continent in which they are located. As I already said, this system is imperfect, but it's commonly used and not offensive to any reasonable person. If you have a problem with it, good for you. We could spend all day arguing semantics. What matters is that you understand what I mean when I say 'white' or 'black', and clearly you do.

ShonHarris said There is institutionalized racism and oppression based on what group you hail from. Random example could be that people with white skin have committed numerous atrocities and genocides, shootings, bombings, and horrific killing sprees in the United States. Yet, somehow, anyone who is seemingly Arabic or perhaps Muslim is more apt to associated with such activities, and are much likelier to be pulled aside in airports or in some states (I'm looking at you, Arizona) to prove their citizenship. We could talk about the deaths after recent Stand Your Ground laws and the disproportionate number of cases where a person of colour is killed by a white person and it's ruled as self defence despite disturbing circumstances suggesting otherwise. There's of course media representation, which is actually accepted as a flaw by figures in the business, often depicting any of people of colour (beyond just African) in highly stereotypical, often demeaning ways. Oh, oh, shoot, I almost forgot the studies that have come up showing that charges related to drug possession often differ greatly depending on the ethnicity of the accused. Right, do you remember the inner city school full of mostly students of colour, Harper High? They're at 29 students shot, 8 killed by gun violence. They actually had pretty big shooting last year, but didn't receive much media attention -- yet other schools suffering the same, but with far less children hurt gained tons of attention, granted those were largely white, suburban schools.

This all simply wrong. The only codified, state-sanctioned racism that occurs in the United States is against European Americans via affirmative action. What legislation is being practised in Arizona that discriminates based on race? Name a bill. Cite a case, and cases with identical circumstances where the only difference is the race of the defendant, yet the sentence is disproportionately larger for the coloured defendant. You need to say something credible to convince me. Anything other than "just trust me, it's there" would be preferable.

But of course, the above only qualifies to the situations you mentioned that, if proven, WOULD be institutionalized racism. Media outlets putting emphasis on shootings that happen in schools where it isn't normal for students to get shot to death makes absolute perfect sense. It's the same reasoning behind it being more newsworthy when a bomb goes off in down-town Washington D.C., to give a random example, as compared to down-town Baghdad. News is something newsworthy—something extraordinary and out of the norm. A student of Harper High School getting shot is not newsworthy.

ShonHarris said See racism is ugly. Nobody gets behind pure, illogical hatred that leads to violence with no rhyme or reason. People followed Hitler, because it was empowering to shame another group and oppress them, especially in light of their severe humiliation not two decades prior. The most evil minds are all too often convinced that their actions make sense, and in that sense, they are free to do as they please. So obviously those parts of the system that perpetuate oppression and prejudice aren't going to blatantly identify their oppressive nature. They're going to act subtly, but the power dynamics will still be written and the pain still felt. I'm sure it's wonderful to be able to pass alongside the majority that are expected to have the most opportunity and be generally acceptable just from appearance. It must be nice not have people commenting on how exotic your hair is, or when you jewellery, ask what that means to your culture. Shoot, it must be extremely nice not to get pulled over by police while you walk to work in a hoodie and accused of selling drugs. I get that it's probably hard to see the prejudice when it's constantly aimed at you. I'm sure you've felt that sort of hate at some point in your life, and that experience is valid, absolutely. But in North America if you're of colour, you're a minority. And the simple fact is that nobody is going to defend your image, or you culture, or simply accept that you are an individual, without somehow noting your ethnicity, your race, or generally that superficial difference. I am so happy for you that prejudice is not a systematic problem in your world.

None of that has anything to do with what we're talking about, but okay.

[Vortex]

The Nexerus said
But of course, the above only qualifies to the situations you mentioned that, if proven, WOULD be institutionalized racism. Media outlets putting emphasis on shootings that happen in schools where it normal for students to get shot to death makes absolute perfect sense. It's the same reasoning behind it being more newsworthy when a bomb goes off in down-town Washington D.C., to give a random example, as compared to down-town Baghdad. News is something newsworthy—something extraordinary and out of the norm.

I'm sorry to say this but: you are a really piece of work aren't you? How is a shooting in a place where "shooting is normal" (I'm assuming you mean places with a lot of black people) un newsworthy? For gods sake ITS A SHOOTING, things like that deserve attention even if it is in poor socio-economic, heavily populated with black people, and not a rich middle class white populated area, if we do not see the problem, thanks to the media not showing us, then how are we going to fix it?

[mdk]

Vortex said
I'm sorry to say this but: you are a really piece of work aren't you?

Easy now. We've been good, let's not get out of hand.

[Vortex]

Yeah... Sorry... Just... Yeah

[The Nexerus]

Vortex said
I'm sorry to say this but: you are a really piece of work aren't you? How is a shooting in a place where "shooting is normal" (I'm assuming you mean places with a lot of black people) un newsworthy?

Did you go to the page I linked to? Students of that High School are shot very frequently. Events become less and less newsworthy with each concurrent incident. It doesn't make it any less unfortunate, but it's not news if it happens frequently. More important than that, though, people stop caring about it if it happens frequently, and media outlets need to cater to what their viewers care about. That's also unfortunate (though more understandable), and incidentally not an example of institutionalized racism.

[Vortex]

So what if it happens frequently? It still deserves attention so we can help fix it. Also the news job is to report what is important and if that means less viewers than so be it, at least they are showing events that demand attention and are not the pseudo-news-but-really-just-entertainment shows. If I was in America I would give you a example or two but I don't so I can't.

[mdk]

Vortex said
So what if it happens frequently? It still deserves attention so we can help fix it. Also the news job is to report what is important and if that means lies viewers than so be it, at least they are showing events that demand attention and are not the pseudo-news-but-really-just-entertainment shows. If I was in America I would give you a example or two but I don't so I can't.

News in America is independent from the government (typically....) and run as a free-market business. The only duty of the various news agencies (CNN, FOX, et al) is to generate revenue for their investors. Which, is the ultimate 'duty' of every business, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying news as a medium for public education/edification is dead. Loooooong dead.