How to make people (other then yourself) like your character

[axleonex]

Commandment I: A Perfect Character is a Boring Character. Your character is strong, charismatic, gentle, loving, always wants to be the hero, and is the type of guy that everyone wants to be. STOP. RIGHT. THERE. If this character is everything we want to be, what's left for us to know? Why would we want to follow his story? He's already perfect. Think of every character you know, point out their flaws. They're not perfect, why is that? Because a good character has a good struggle. We want underdogs, underdogs that are expected to fail so that we can root for them. We want someone that has to work hard and fail bad when shit goes down. They can't win every time, that's repetitive and boring. Bad guys come, good guy fights, good guy wins. Too genetic, too obvious, and there's no point in hearing he story.

Now try this: Bad guys show up. Good guy comes and gets his ass kicked. Bad guys cripple him, kill his dog, and get away.

Losers. We want to see losers struggling to fight. Knights in shining armor are unrealistic, because shining armor only implies they've never been in battle.

"But what if I want my character to be a strong hero?"

Even Gods have their flaws. (Serious flaws too, have you looked into Greek mythology?) I can't create a struggle for each type of character you'd like.(That would take too long) Just remember that with great power, comes greater collateral/psychological damage. Even heroes have weaknesses. Make them hate themselves, make them overly attached to someone, make something stand out. Which brings me to my next commandant.

Commandment ll: For the love of God, give them a personality. She's shy, but adventurous. She's a jerk, but has a heart of gold. She doesn't fit in, but loves making new friends. She's a bitch, but wants love. See the pattern? Because I don't.

YOUR CHARACTER IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE EVERYTHING.

"But I want people to like my character, so I want her to have a little of everything"

OCs are like real life people. (Shits about to get deep). Each character has distinctive personalities that separate them from everyone else. One does not satisfy everyone's taste, instead of being very flavorful, one flavor must be chosen. Because each person is a different taste, and no one likes tasting the same flavor all the time. (That sounded perverted)

Choose one single trait, ANY trait, and stick with it. "But my character is more complicated." Honey, they all are, just stick to a single trait.

I like to go with the inner person outer person rule. The outer person is the personality they show to the world. The inner person is WHY the outer person exists.

In order, the outer person may be: hot headed, attention hog, slutty, quiet, or adventures.

While the inner person may be: Unsure how to make people like him, doesn't like being ignored, wants to prove to her parents that they failed, abused as a child an unsure what to speak about, or never knew how wonderful life was until they left home.

Y'see people are like onions, there are many layers to all of us. We only ever see the outer layer, but the inner layers are what made the outer layer grow.

Commandment III: Just because their life is shitty, it doesn't mean we should feel sorry for them. Just because your character's parents died in a fire, on their birthday, after they left a letter saying how much they hate their kid, it doesn't mean we will instantly like the character. Nobody likes complainers, nobody likes whiners. Life is a tragedy, but pity is not something g we should give all the time. And sulking is not how we should live all the time.

It's alright if a tragedy makes your character behave a certain way, (like the onion advice I mentioned) but your entire character can't revolve around a single tragedy. "I'm going to betray all my friends, family and pets because I have a debt of twenty dollars to pay." Don't blow tragedies out of proportion.

[Mr_pink]

You should probably add somewhere that even though you give them flaws, these may make people hate or love them depending on the reader. For example, when I read J.D Salingers 'The Catcher in the Rye' I absolutely hated Holden Caulfield for his whiny and entitled attitude, while others loved him for this.

[ClosetMonster]

axleonex said
It's alright if a tragedy makes your character behave a certain way, (like the onion advice I mentioned) but your entire character can't revolve around a single tragedy. "I'm going to betray all my friends, family and pets because I have a debt of twenty dollars to pay." Don't blow tragedies out of proportion.

Pssh! I don't know about you, but I am still reeling from the fact that the guy I had a crush on in first grade (give me a sec and I'll remember his name, I'm sure - along with his birthdate, which wrist his watch was kept on, and who all of his family members were, as well as his favorite kind of pudding which is STILL his favorite, I am positive) pulled on my pigtails and made me cry and feel like I was ugly and unwanted and fat and suicidal and homicidal and manic.

Seriously dood - don't betray reality. That was a REAL HURT and I'm still going to bed CRYING MYSELF TO SLEEP!!!! I'm crying as I type this and I cry whenever I sit down at a coffee bar and get a latte with extra cinnamon. I've named my first born after his pet gerbil so I'll never forget him, ever. And when I'm eighty, I'll be sure to explain to the detective that if it weren't for what's-his-name, those twenty people in my justice borne rage would have survived because I'd have been easier to live with and they would have been allowed to put the toilet paper on any damned way they want.

** heh. you rock. Amen to all yer post. Good, solid tips for role players.

[Corporal Lance]

This is a damn good thread. Bravo. Can't say I have anything more to add than just a congrats, though.

[AkiBlue]

A+ on this.
I like, approve, and agree!

[Foster]

ClosetMonster said
Pssh! I don't know about you, but I am still reeling from the fact that the guy I had a crush on in first grade (give me a sec and I'll remember his name, I'm sure - along with his birthdate, which wrist his watch was kept on, and who all of his family members were, as well as his favorite kind of pudding which is STILL his favorite, I am positive) pulled on my pigtails and made me cry and feel like I was ugly and unwanted and fat and suicidal and homicidal and manic. Seriously dood - don't betray reality. That was a REAL HURT and I'm still going to bed CRYING MYSELF TO SLEEP!!!! I'm crying as I type this and I cry whenever I sit down at a coffee bar and get a latte with extra cinnamon. I've named my first born after his pet gerbil so I'll never forget him, ever. And when I'm eighty, I'll be sure to explain to the detective that if it weren't for what's-his-name, those twenty people in my justice borne rage would have survived because I'd have been easier to live with and they would have been allowed to put the toilet paper on any damned way they want. ** heh. you rock. Amen to all yer post. Good, solid tips for role players.

Don't expect any pity from me, my avatar is still a purple unidorn.

[ClosetMonster]

Foster said
Don't expect any pity from me, my avatar is still a purple unidorn.

At least purple looks good on you!

But seriously, if needs must, you and I can cry together. After the pig-tail pulling incident, I bought out stock in a local tissue company. (Because lattes are just no good when you're sobbing over them and gooshy stuff gets into the coffee - no additional cinnamon or vanilla can cover that.)

[Ellri]

We rather like including a few potential side traits that may fit, then slowly cut away anything that doesn't work after a bit of play. Some character personalities work well when writing the CS, only to not work at all in play. One character we have, was originally written with determination as the focus, but it appears now to be twisting somewhat towards ruthlessness, towards 'the end justifies the means'.

[Roose Hurro]

As a writer, I always strive to make my characters believable. Especially considering that I have no human characters in my roster. So I consider it important to make my "critters"... well, to be blunt, People. Even aliens and fantasy creatures need to live and breathe on the page, to be characters the reader can sympathize with, identify with, laugh and cry over what happens in their lives. Depth helps in that.

[Kidd]

Mr_pink said
You should probably add somewhere that even though you give them flaws, these may make people hate or love them depending on the reader. For example, when I read J.D Salingers 'The Catcher in the Rye' I absolutely hated Holden Caulfield for his whiny and entitled attitude, while others loved him for this.

But did you hate him as a character or as a person? Because a lot of my favorite characters are the type of people I would never want to associate in real life, haha.

[ramblingbard]

axleonex said
She's shy, but adventurous. She's a jerk, but has a heart of gold. She doesn't fit in, but loves making new friends. She's a bitch, but wants love. See the pattern? Because I don't.YOUR CHARACTER IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE EVERYTHING."But I want people to like my character, so I want her to have a little of everything"

I gotta say, I RP on a dif site, and ran an RP where I critiqued character's personalities for being too inclusive (or too flat). So when I was reading Commandment II, all I could think of was the forwarded rant a friend sent me from someone that was on the receiving end of the "too inclusive" diagnosis about how I had no clue about how real people act because they're multidimensional. Seriously, though, every single one of the above statements were listed on the frickin' sheet I rejected! *sigh* I'm in love with this and I'm not ashamed to say it. <3

[axleonex]

You know something that's really hard for me though? Creating a hateable villains. It's so easy to make relateable characters. Tragic events, human emotions, realistic ambitions, different perspectives, it all let's the audience have a level of connection with the character that makes them like them. What's really hard for me is creating a character that the audience will hate with of all their being.

This fucker burned the orphanage alive? He committed genocide against all the bunnies in the land? He hates ice cream and steals candy from puppies? Sure, why not. It's easy to make crimes for a villain, but what about the reasons behind those crimes?

I'm not sure how to make distinctive bad guys with memorable traits that make the audience hate them. Sure, I could create a serial killer, but even serial killers had family. What I really want to know is how to make serial killers as memorable as those from Far Cry and the Batman movies. Ambitions that are borderline lunacy with personalities that contradict the situations that are in. THAT is something I could use some advice on.

[Ellri]

Want to make the villain easier to hate? have good reasons for the acts (s)he performs, but don't make them visible to the reader. When you understand why someone does something, it is harder to hate them for it. You could always go for unreasoned acts of evil, but in the long run, they're not nearly so dangerous as the villains that have clearly defined reasons that the "good guys" simply cannot comprehend, let alone accept.

Here's a quick example:
Good view: He regularly flies out on his dragon, randomly killing female children and slaughtering their families.
His view: He knows of a secret prophesy that his reign will be ended by the child born of a green-eyed girl born after a certain year or at a certain time of the year, thus the only solution to prolonging reign is to ensure that there are no such girls to give birth to his bane.

In that example, he has a good reason, yet it is not apparent to the "good guys" why he does it, and when they can't know why, it is easier to hate.

[Kestrel]

Making a good villain isn't too different from making a good hero. People are defined through their actions. If you preach good but don't do it, you're a hypocrite. If you act all tough and dangerous, but nurse back the baby bird to health, you're a big softie in disguise. A hero could be afraid of being alone, so determined to protect his childhood friend when (s)he goes out into the dangerous wild, putting his own life at stake. A villain with the same desire, could lock up said childhood friend in his lair so they won't ever have to even face danger. One method to fight this fear is considered admirable, the other plain creepy. Yet they work from the same core desire. What makes a villain hate-able then? A dissonance the viewer experiences between the villain's desire (can be related to) and ways to achieve this desire (can not be related to.)

[Brovo]

What Kestrel said. Also, villains fall under a yardstick of measurable humanity versus disturbia. Going too far in either direction kills the villain element. (A villain who is too human to do evil things is an anti-hero, a villain who has no humanity is a one dimensional villain who is entirely incomprehensible to the average person.)

There are also certain moral event horizons and special kinds of evil to watch out for. Crossing them typically puts you in the one dimensional evil territory unless you build the villain up to that level of evil. (Else he is just "generic edgy bad guy".) Think of things like murdering children, raping people, slaughtering/torturing cute animals, and so on.

The best villains are the ones who have some kind of restriction on their ability to do evil: Mentally, physically, or even something as simple as "society wants this guy dead so he has limited influence." That way there is some measurable, identifiable, relate-able justification for any extremes they might resort to in order to accomplish their goals. (ex: I want to take over the world so I can build my sky palace and have infinite women to love my pathetic ass, however I'm physically crippled, so I need to subvert others to do my bidding and sacrifice any who get too greedy for power themselves...)

[Ellri]

We knew you two could word it so much better than us, kestrel / brovo.

Our view on the bit about rape and taking on children and so forth Is this:
Too many of these without logic and the villain becomes too evil. Or one-dimensional as brovo put it. There's no excusing it anymore. However, while rape is a different kind of evil, it can be used in a limited degree without triggering one-dimensionality. The rape ought to be reasoned out, even if the reason doesn’t make sense to others or to 'normal' justifications, so long as the villain can justify it to himself or herself.

[LesleyDrakken]

Excellent points! For me, like a lot of things, it's a balancing act. Context is important too.

I've found throughout all my years designing characters that eventually you learn to enjoy playing realistic, flawed characters better then you ever would a Mary Sue. Start thinking of your character as a real person, even if it's a fantasy character. In that case, you know you've done a sufficient job if you could strip away that person's fantastic traits and special powers and yet still have a well developed, playable person.

Put your character where the action is, but don't make them save/wreck the day singlehandedly either. Make their traits balanced, so that they have room to grow and make mistakes, but also create long-lasting relationships. Just like groups of people in real life, they'll make up for one another's flaws and create a strong team by combining strengths. Characters in a good RP help develop each other; the character bond is the most important construct for holding an RP together. Of course, characters becoming friends paves the way for players becoming friends, and isn't that the reason a lot of us are here? =)

[HollywoodMole]

I think a good villain stems from not just being a psychopath. I see people with villains who go around killing people for no reason, and being stupid. If you were in a zombie apocalypse, even if you were insane, would you really fire a gun into the air?