Vaccines?

[TheDookieNut]

A note on the Vaccines Cause Austism front. It's either of these two stories:

1.It was put forward by a gentlemen who attempted to sue someone or other.

2. A medical professional refused to pass out vaccinations, despite being a fucking doctor, as s/he believed they caused autism.

Of course it had nothing to do with the fact children were getting vaccinated at the same TIME as they developed autism

[Kaga]

Nevis said
Like I said, I don't recall the exact details.

So... are you trying to say you have no reason for being anti-vaccines? Because your previous post doesn't seem to bring forth any argument against them.

[Hansa]

Hey guys, it's funny to find a thread like this! Not that I wanna ruin the thread or anything, but I'm actually a medical student almost done with my second year. In Norway that pretty much means I've gone through all the pre-clinical subjects. I had immunology earlier this year, so I have a lot to say on this matter.

Being against vaccines is utter and complete idiocy. Sorry, just had to get that out there.

You see, what a vaccine does is introduce an inactive version of a microbe into your bloodstream. This is often a fragment of the microbe, like a part of their membrane. This activates your immune system and triggers it to produce special white blood cells called 'memory cells'. Your immune system being activated after the vaccine is the reason why people often get a bit ill the day after a vaccine. When your body has stored memory cells in your blood, you are immunized against a specific microbe. This means that if you ever get exposed to that microbe again, you are very likely to be able to have a fast, effective immune response in your body, killing off the infection. This means you don't get sick!

Now you know how vaccines work. I do not see how the above mechanism can lead to autism. You probably don't either. So let's all agree that vaccines do not lead to autism. Period.

As to allergies or rare side-effects; these are extremely small risks you take for a very big reward. I understand that it's scary to take these risks, but the fact is deciding not to vaccinate your kids is a lot bigger risk. You see, using vaccines, we can actually eradicate entire diseases. This is amazing, it really is. If we vaccinate all children against a disease, it simply stops existing! So when you vaccinate your child, you are protecting them from a really bad disease, and you're protecting all other kids and future generations. This is the big reward i mentioned. And just a comment on the allergy-risk; we have the medical knowledge these days to save a child who gets an allergic reaction. In fact, this is the reason why you're asked to wait in the hospital for a set amount of time after a vaccine. In case you get a reaction.

Hope this post doesn't come off as too stubborn, but this really is a frustrating problem society is facing.

[Foster]

What about those lil smallpox outbreaks?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/11/a-brief-terrifying-history-of-viruses-escaping-from-labs-70s-chinese-pandemic-was-a-lab-mistake/

[TheDookieNut]

You can't complete eradicate a disease.

Cholera goes wherever the disasters are.

The places where people aren't immunised, tends to be where the outbreaks are. I'm 90% sure I haven't been vaccinated against small pox. As I'm sure a lot of people haven't. Because it isn't a threat. Same reason I haven't been vaccinated against TB. Stupid idea if you ask me considering I'm work Exing on a fucking farm.

[Foster]

Well, actually, most of those outbreaks are pretty much the sort of stuf that inspires the plot of Alien: totally irrational and irresponsiable efforts to weaponize that nasty looking thing that ripped-off Marvin's face.

[Hansa]

Foster said
What about those lil smallpox outbreaks?

I don't see how a lab accident has anything to do with vaccines.

TheDookieNut said
You can't complete eradicate a disease.Cholera goes wherever the disasters are.The places where people aren't immunised, tends to be where the outbreaks are. I'm 90% sure I haven't been vaccinated against small pox. As I'm sure a lot of people haven't. Because it isn't a threat. Same reason I haven't been vaccinated against TB. Stupid idea if you ask me considering I'm work Exing on a fucking farm.

I guess maybe eradicate was the wrong word, I meant something like "stopping all outbreaks of the disease". Obviously the microbes live on.

You should vaccinate against diseases that can be brought into the country as well. So I disagree with your lowermost point. People go a lot on vacation to Africa, and who knows what kind of stuff they bring with them from there, right?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hansa said Hey guys, it's funny to find a thread like this! Not that I wanna ruin the thread or anything, but I'm actually a medical student almost done with my second year. In Norway that pretty much means I've gone through all the pre-clinical subjects. I had immunology earlier this year, so I have a lot to say on this matter. Sorry, just had to get that out there. You see, what a vaccine does is introduce an inactive version of a microbe into your bloodstream. This is often a fragment of the microbe, like a part of their membrane. This activates your immune system and triggers it to produce special white blood cells called 'memory cells'. Your immune system being activated after the vaccine is the reason why people often get a bit ill the day after a vaccine. When your body has stored memory cells in your blood, you are immunized against a specific microbe. This means that if you ever get exposed to that microbe again, you are very likely to be able to have a fast, effective immune response in your body, killing off the infection. Now you know how vaccines work. I do not see how the above mechanism can lead to autism. You probably don't either.

As a disclaimer before I start, I agree with you. I believe the anti-vaccine movement is a load of bullshit (I may sympathize with them in one or two ways, and agree that vaccines should be under more strict testing, but vaccines have more than proven themselves to be very safe and effective save for one or two cases). But the main argument I've heard from those who say vaccine's cause autism wasn't really addressed here. The common claim I hear from them is mercury, that the mercury causes brain damage and causes autism.

Hansa said If we vaccinate all children against a disease, it simply stops existing! So when you vaccinate your child, you are protecting them from a really bad disease, and you're protecting all other kids and future generations. This is the big reward i mentioned.

Not quite...
There are some cases such as the flu virus where it never dies, it simply evolves/adapts. Basically view humans as the prey and the flu was the predator. Humanity's 'evolution' was the vaccine, it gained a defense mechanism against their predator, so now the predator either goes extinct or is forced to adapt, and becomes a virus better able to bypass the vaccine. It's why flu shots become a yearly thing for many people.

[Vortex]

Now I don't know if this is true so don't judge me by it, but I heard that one day the disease will one day become so evolved that it will have out evolved the vaccine, rendering the vaccine useless. Your thoughts?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Vortex said
Now I don't know if this is true so don't judge me by it, but I heard that one day the disease will one day become so evolved that it will have out evolved the vaccine, rendering the vaccine useless. Your thoughts?

That's a confirmed. Everything evolves and adapts, no reason a disease one day would not evolve to a point the vaccine fails to work.
Hell that's basically what I said above in regards to flu shots. However just as the disease evolves/changes so will the vaccines, we'd simply have to come out with new vaccines to deal with the new evolved viruses.

[Kaga]

Magic Magnum said
That's a confirmed. Everything evolves and adapts, no reason a disease one day would not evolve to a point the vaccine fails to work.Hell that's basically what I said above in regards to flu shots. However just as the disease evolves/changes so will the vaccines, we'd simply have to come out with new vaccines to deal with the new evolved viruses.

I agree. Just knowing a disease will evolve doesn't mean we should stop trying. The concern that a vaccine will stop working in the future is in no way helped by ceasing the use of vaccines right here and now.

[Vortex]

Hell, what if we can't developed new vaccines because the virus has become so evolved? Because the virus is so resistant to drugs?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Vortex said
Hell, what if we can't developed new vaccines because the virus has become so evolved? Because the virus is so resistant to drugs?

It would take a long series of micro-changes for it to reach such a point. Where we should be advancing medically fast enough to keep up and have enough time of observation to beat the virus to it. There's still the small chance we might not be able to forever keep up an effective vaccine, but diseases save for a few like Cancer have been becoming very easy to counteract/stop. The main obstacle honestly being human beings who refuse to take the vaccines.

[Brovo]

Vortex said
Hell, what if we can't developed new vaccines because the virus has become so evolved? Because the virus is so resistant to drugs?

End game. We're dead. That could actually happen if viruses outpace technology. Ergo why doctors usually beg people not to use antibiotics on common colds and the like.

Vaccines on the other hand should be mass distributed. The more people become immunized, the less victims a virus has. The less victims a virus has, the lower the chance random mutations will occur, and thus, the less likely new viruses will be created from the old design.

We just about eliminated smallpox and measles in this manner. We left them so few carriers they couldn't spread, effectively rendering them dead... Until the anti-vaccine movement came along... Yay...

[Kaga]

Vortex said
Hell, what if we can't developed new vaccines because the virus has become so evolved? Because the virus is so resistant to drugs?

That still doesn't defeat my argument.

Viruses evolve so much that vaccines can't hurt them = no vaccines for humanity

Everyone refuses to take vaccines = no vaccines for humanity

Trying to get people to not use vaccines does not solve this problem. If anything, it would just cause it sooner, because in either case, we're facing a virus with no vaccines to protect ourselves.

[Foster]

Hansa said
I guess maybe eradicate was the wrong word, I meant something like "stopping all outbreaks of the disease". Obviously the microbes live on.

Aye.

BTW, I do agree that people should vaccinate, and that research should continue on creating new vaccines even if only to presserve the working-knowledge on how to isolate and create an innoculation from a 'wild' non-atenuated strain.

Creating non-innoculating vaccines (modern smallpox vaccine) probably would take too much time and resources in a crisis.