Vaccines?

[Gwazi Magnum]

OT been's quiet for some time now and I'm getting exhausted of my only discussion being if ______ holds up to ______ group or not.

So here's a serious topic to munch on.
Vaccines? Do you support them? Are you against them? Are you unsure/have doubts?

My Ultimate Knowledge on the field is limited so my opinion piece should be brief (Unless if someone gives me a long post to reply to), but I'll wait a bit before posting it.
It's bad practice to set the tone of a thread with a certain stance/viewpoint right when it starts.

[Dervish]

It's pretty hard to argue against vaccines when they've virtually eradicated a bunch of terrible diseases. Pretty much all those horror stories you hear about them from people is because they heard something on the internet that turned out being fake. The fact there's a measles outbreak in Western Canada this year after it was virtually non-existent for decades should be a pretty good indication of how ridiculous it is to ignore such an easy, painless medical practice because you're more afraid of something that's likely a crock of shit somebody fabricated over a serious illness that's entirely preventable. Isn't that a little strange and screwed up that people are more inclined to believe rumours over hard facts?

Seriously. Vaccinate your damn kids. If they get brutally ill because you'd rather trust some sensationalist garbage over solid medical advice and practices that have been safely used for decades, you're a selfish idiot who should have never bred because you clearly aren't a responsible human being.

[Pepperm1nts]

Dervish said
It's pretty hard to argue against vaccines when they've virtually eradicated a bunch of terrible diseases. Pretty much all those horror stories you hear about them from people is because they heard something on the internet that turned out being fake. The fact there's a measles outbreak in Western Canada this year after it was virtually non-existent for decades should be a pretty good indication of how ridiculous it is to ignore such an easy, painless medical practice because you're more afraid of something that's likely a crock of shit somebody fabricated over a serious illness that's entirely preventable. Isn't that a little strange and screwed up that people are more inclined to believe rumours over hard facts? Seriously. Vaccinate your damn kids. If they get brutally ill because you'd rather trust some sensationalist garbage over solid medical advice and practices that have been safely used for decades, you're a selfish idiot who should have never bred because you clearly aren't a responsible human being.

This, really.

There isn't much else that can be said. People who don't vaccinate their kids, or themselves, are morons. And if you're dumb enough to believe the bullshit you hear about vaccines, while ignoring the facts being laid before you by trained, educated medical professionals, you might just deserve to catch some fucking disease and die. Yeah, that's a bit blunt. But some people are infuriatingly stupid. It's especially bad when these morons are breeding and refusing to vaccinate their children, putting their lives in danger. Or worse, passing down their moronic views to their kids, who then end up afraid of vaccines themselves.

[Dervish]

It's kind of like refusing to have a fire extinguisher in your home because you heard the dust poses a risk of cancer (note: I'm making this up for an example). Your house catches fire and you lose a large chunk of your house because you had nothing to put out the initially managable blaze. Do you still feel anti-fire extinguisher in such a circumstance?

Now replace fire extinguisher with vaccine and fire with disease and it's the same argument. Don't ignore an actual legitimate threat for a "just in case, probably not".

[Tydosius]

Immunisation is good. It's damn good. But vaccinating infants (fun fact: Infants are in the 'alpha incomplete seriously the game isn't even playable yet' stage of development) does cause problems. So vaccinate your kids, when they're kids or older, not when they're infants.

[Nevis]

Does that leave me the only one here who says 'no' to vaccines?

[Turtlicious]

Nevis said
Does that leave me the only one here who says 'no' to vaccines?

Yes, just so you know, vaccines don't cause autism or something weird like that.

e: also you not getting vaccinated puts the rest of us in danger.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Alright, now to add my own view.
It's basically the same as what others have said, however I wouldn't go as far as saying "Those who deny it deserve to die".
I also admit the vaccine business has had some shady and foul behavior.

For example.

1. In regards to vaccine cause autism, apparently that was never the claim by the scientist (Just media the stupid mother who thought a diet cures autism. [Speaking as someone with Autism who has also worked as an autism therapist, this is bullshit. A diet can help reduce the symptoms but it does not cure it]). It was simply "We see a connection, I suggest we look more into it", and it was journalist/media looking for exaggerated headlines and claimed "Vaccines cause autism". But because of said media arousal anyone who even comments on the original study is regarded to as a nutter.

2. The swine flu. You know that flu which was practically harmless? It killed less people than the common cold? The vaccine itself killed more people than the illness itself? This was a basically harmless disease that the Media completely exaggerated and made out to be the end of human kind. Everyone panicked and demanded the vaccine, and the vaccine ended up being rushed and poorly tested as a result. Is this a case with all vaccines? No, most are pretty safe and treat actual threats. But it's hard to fully blame those concerned with vaccines when incident's like this happen where the vaccine actually did more harm than good.

With all that being said though, people should be getting vaccine's for the deadly diseases. Sadly my Mom was one of those people who hates vaccines and is utterly convinced that they cause autism, so I grew up without them and now that I'm a legal adult do need to remember to get around to and get the vaccines myself. Also even if vaccines causing autism was true, it would definitely be something to aim to fix, but assuming there was no way to avoid way Penn & Teller bullshit put it nicely.

Dervish said
It's kind of like refusing to have a fire extinguisher in your home because you heard the dust poses a risk of cancer.

Wow really? Now I know to get rid of the fire extinguishers in my home.
And here I was listening to the fire department about this... silly me! :P

[Neobullseye]

Turtlicious said
Yes, just so you know, vaccines don't cause autism or something weird like that.e: also you not getting vaccinated puts the rest of us in danger.

For the sake of explaining this to people who think that vaccination makes anyone who is vaccinated completely immune, thus making not vaccinationg yourself a problem only you have to face; this is only partially true. You see, in a small faction of people who get vaccinated, the vaccination doesn't quite take. Alternatively, they may be allergic to something in the vaccination fluid, thus making it impossible for them to get vaccinated. Or maybe they're simply too young to get a vaccination. There are several legitimate reason why one is not vaccinated yet. Anyway, this is not a problem due to something known as group immunity. Simply put, if enough people in a given group are immune to a virus, said virus cannot spread, thus also protecting the people who aren't immune to it. In addition, due to so few people actually being able to catch the virus in the first place, the virus can't mutate, thus allowingthe vaccination to keep working.
This, however, changes if too many people lose their immunity (Read: don't get vaccinated). When the immunity grade dips below a certain point, the virus can spread and mutate again, putting everyone at risk. Think of it of a tin can pyramid. You can easily remove a few cans here and there without causing the entire structure to collapse in on itself. But remove too many, and the pyramid will come down.
So yes, not vaccination yourself is someone else's problem too. For this reason, I'm all in favour of obligatory vaccination, with the only exception being aforementioned allergy.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I think everyone here can agree that there are obvious exceptions to vaccines such as allergies or too young.
The debate mainly refers though to those who are of proper age and health to take the vaccines.

[Darog the Badger God]

Funny, I've only heard of the whole "Vaccines cause autism" thing in this thread xD.

Anyway, I think Dervish said it for me.

[Brovo]

Agreed with Dervish all the way. I have nothing more to add except that he stated everything I could or would state on the topic anyway: Vaccinate your damn kids!

[Kaga]

Magic Magnum said
Sadly my Mom was one of those people who hates vaccines and is utterly convinced that they cause autism, so I grew up without them

>Magnum's mother believes vaccines cause autism.
>Magnum never received any vaccinations as a kid.
>Magnum has autism.

...I feel like this should've been proof enough to her that there's not a connection.
Or, even if there was, why would the risk of causing autism even matter if you were already autistic?

[mdk]

I think most of the people who unilaterally say 'Yes, get vaccinated' probably haven't gone in for Anthrax. My short answer is they're not all created equal, and bad shit happens when you introduce things into your body. I mean I know a guy (former pilot in my unit, which is spanish for 'otherwise very healthy') who went blind in one eye from a 'FluMist' vaccine -- obviously not common, I'm just saying. Get the safe vaccinations and avoid the ones you don't need.

TLDR: 'It's designed to be safe' is a poor excuse for doing your damn research. Only inject your infants with safe things.

[Foster]

Magic Magnum said
OT been's quiet for some time now and I'm getting exhausted of my only discussion being if ______ holds up to ______ group or not.

So here's a serious topic to munch on.
Vaccines? Do you support them? Are you against them? Are you unsure/have doubts?

My Ultimate Knowledge on the field is limited so my opinion piece should be brief (Unless if someone gives me a long post to reply to), but I'll wait a bit before posting it.
It's bad practice to set the tone of a thread with a certain stance/viewpoint right when it starts.

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
~Ben Franklin, as Poor Richard.

Ben Franklin's son died in 1736 from smallpox, age 4.
-The modern smallpox vaccine wasn't developed until 1798, and took a further 2 years for the first serums to reach America.
-Beforehand, there was a vaccine developed by Charles Maitland, in 1718. It was hailed as "a useful invention".
-Pasteur didn't invent his process until the 1850's :/

The 1718 version was, of course, little more than rubbing fecal matter of the infected upon oneself and hoping the infection isn't going to be particularily strong, and won't be hitting you when your immune system is down and infrastructure has collapsed on itself.

So yeah, go back to 1735 in a time machine with Jenner's Cowpox-vaccine, show it to Mr Franklin, tell him what it does, then try leaving.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Kaga said
>Magnum's mother believes vaccines cause autism.
>Magnum never received any vaccinations as a kid.
>Magnum has autism....

I feel like this should've been proof enough to her that there's not a connection.Or, even if there was, why would the risk of autism even matter if you were already autistic?

XD I agree it really should of.

But to be fair there's a couple element's at play here. To start with I made a slight miss-wording. I don't have no vaccines. Just very little, a number of these little also being one step 1's in what were meant to be multi-step vaccines... and not being completed I doubt those first step ones count for anything. So there was a minimal amount of vaccines in me that she could make the link with.

Secondly, I wasn't diagnosed until I was three years old. Which was a bit after she stopped giving us vaccines, and her reason for not just giving me the vaccines afterwards then was she was worried it would make my autism even worse.

Also she doesn't think that vaccines are the only cause to autism, just that it's a cause. She agree's that other things like genetics and environment also plays a role in it. Which however makes the Penn & Teller argument above even stronger because that was assuming all autism cases were the result of vaccines, and that's not even the case if you admit stuff like genetics and environment can cause it a lot of the time.

[Nevis]

While I don't remember the particulars of why, my stance has a bit to do with my mother-who worked as a paramedic and in the ER in a major city for years, besides that she was in the hospital constantly as a child (quite sick). I think her background-and her turn-around from that-speaks a bit.

[Kaga]

Nevis said
While I don't remember the particulars of , my stance has a bit to do with my mother-who worked as a paramedic and in the ER in a major city for years, besides that she was in the hospital constantly as a child (quite sick). I think her background-and her turn-around from that-speaks a bit.

I don't understand how this is an argument against vaccines.

[TheDookieNut]

They don't give kids autism!
Just putting that out there.

Parents who don't immunise their kids out others at risk. Not to be a bitch about it. For some reason I'm not vaccinated against TB, which is mental, so if I caught the bugger and walked into another community, spread my germs, BAM! TB outbreak. Of course much more technical and scientific than that.

Then again, superbugs. Eh, they'll happen anyway

[Nevis]

Like I said, I don't recall the exact details.