Ellri said
We love our research, as at least the silent and slightly sick Sundered Echo can testify. We spent considerable time researching WWI history just to find a place that worked for Echo's character. Initially, the plan was to use a city that was bombed to shreds in WWI, but soon enough it turned out that there were no such cities. Pesky history, eh?
However, if we're curious about something, say Wraith: the Oblivion as much of that stuff you wrote is about, we look it up at need. First we'll look such up in the wikia, and if that doesn't answer our questions, we dig deeper.
Hey, I can't help that. If you're gonna research, you're gonna research.
Ellri said
The stuff about those spirits was (in our opinion at least) much easier to read in the wiki.
Well, thanks. :V
Do note regardless that the Spectral Hierarchy section was not the summary of the nature of Spectres.
I'd already posted that awhile ago. Rather, it was an extrapolation of the statement from that description that they had a hierarchy/caste system. The Doppelgangers, Mortwrights, Shades, Haints, Apparitions, and Nephwracks
are relevant to the game because those are the beings that the Thayne twins are capable of summoning. I saw no reason to not give a complete description of the pecking order beyond that, especially since the influence of the Malfeans helps to explain the reasons why Spectres operate in a certain way (the Spectres work with the Thaynes because the Malfeans they serve are allied with the Earthbound Demon the Thayne twins worship). It's also fun to describe their grim immensity and helps establish atmosphere.
Ellri said
Same goes for abyssal beings and so forth.
Ehhh... The wiki doesn't actually really describe Abyssal "beings" to any degree of detail. There actually isn't
any description of Abyssal Intruders on there despite me linking their sourcebook (which, I might add, is one of the most lauded supplements in the Awakening gameline). The wiki describes the Abyss in VTM and DTF, but in the Vampire version of the page, the only thing that's stated about denizens of the Abyss is that they're there and they're dangerous, not
what they are or represent whatsoever
I'm also taking some inspiration from MTAw's portrayal of the Abyss, and while its Abyss is vaguely described on the wiki, the only entities it references in relation to it are the Acamoth, which only covers one specific type of Abyssal interaction - the actual details of Abyssal intrusion have not yet been explored whatsoever on the wiki.
Ellri said
Considering that some of the creatures you described hold god-like power, they're not all that relevant.
You ask "why?," I reply, "why not?" Well, actually, I reply:
Firstly, to comprehend the nature of Abyssal Entities, which
do have a chance of making an appearance, as I've portrayed them, the Neverborn and their paradoxical, alien nature must be established. This is not a mere encyclopedia entry, this is prose, so the Neverborn must be done justice - one can't just go "they're cosmic horrors that want to destroy everything." The situation is more complex than that and there's not much point in writing if you don't write.
Secondly, it establishes a theme. There is an atmosphere and bearing by which the Thaynes, their Blood Sorcery, and their context as characters is presented. The Neverborn have a specific Lovecraftian flavor they bring to the Abyss and thus contribute to the nature of Abyss Mysticism. This is a part of the spirit I want the characters to be in keeping with.
In a funny bit of juxtaposition, when you think about the background of the Jyhad, every vampire technically gets their unique, signature powers from horrible, sleeping, god-like abominations who want to eat them. In many cases, said abominations continue to live on through these powers (Lasombra, Tzimisce, Malkav). So it's really not a thematic departure from Masquerade anyway.
Ellri said
Its kinda like how the rules are concerning fighting Caine. Its pretty stupid to even consider it.
Ah, but just because Caine didn't need stats to know "you lose," doesn't mean his fluff was unnecessary or otherwise not integral to the history of the gameline.
No, you're not supposed to fight the Malfeans or the Neverborn. Fluff is fluff. The Abyssal Entities, themselves, however, are specifically intended to be within a PC's capacities to defeat. Many of the Abyssal Intruders described in
Intruders: Encounters with the Abyss are written to be combatable mechanically by Vampires and the Uratha, who are
weaker than their oWoD counterparts. And this being a freeform RPG means that there's no systemic limitations - your capacity to succeed is entirely based on your capacity to write.
Ellri said
If we players do not have enough conflict between us to have fun, we're very much certain the friendly neighborhood GMs will have no qualms about rectifying that.
Sure. But this isn't about that.
Ulisse Samuele Giovanni and Giuliana Liboria Giovanni both have the capacity to use Necromancy. They no doubt command Wraith slaves and/or have Wraith allies in the Shadowlands. Although the Stygian Hierarchy's official stance on the Giovanni is that they're bad news and should be avoided/murdered, it doesn't keep the Necropoli, Heretics, Renegades, and Guilds from cutting deals with them anyway, which is why the Giovanni fare so much better at everything, ever, compared to the Ravnos and Salubri. This is really not too different from what the Thaynes are capable of.
Now consider the Pyromancers, who had their own Demon who was not an element of backstory, but a tangible presence. Undoubtedly she would have been more obviously, directly powerful and unassailable from a practical standpoint than the Abyssal Entities I have proposed. A shame Wernher was unable to continue in the RPG, on the note of this.
So it's not like any of this doesn't have precedence. I'm just going into extra detail about it because
I can, even though I am under no obligation to do so. Regardless, if Ruby and Zach have a problem with anything I do, I have no problem deferring to their vision.
