Everytime I complain the flaws at the start people don't listen.

[Awson]

*about

But



I've been saying this forever.

[Awson]

My title is atrocious.

[Card]

Sometimes, I go through the graveyard, sprint into the Catacombs, and pick up the Great Scythe or Gravelord Greatsword. I then proceed to one shot the Taurus Demon. Good times.

[aza]

Wait.
Theres a fuckin graveyard.

Huh

[Kill Bones]

There's no flaws at the start, it's a method to weed out the fucking morons

I'd rather not have these talentless shitheads keep playing and end up being more pursuers and wotg spammers because that's the only way they can kill anything

finding a good pvp session is already hard enough

[Awson]

Kill Bones said
There's no flaws at the start, it's a method to weed out the fucking moronsI'd rather not have these talentless shitheads keep playing and end up being more pursuers and wotg spammers because that's the only way they can kill anythingfinding a good pvp session is already hard enough

What a shitty attitude.

[Kill Bones]

Awson said
What a shitty attitude.

No, it's a shitty attitude to blame the game because people are stupid. The first legend of zelda didn't tell you where to go, people managed it just fine. Metroid didn't give you big ass arrows on a mini map so you didn't get lost. This entire generation of games is literally filled to the brim with hand-holding garbage, one game that doesn't walk you across the street like you're five years old is a nice change. I found the proper path within two deaths, and I'm hardly a font of genius ability.

[Card]

It's not flawed. You're supposed to be able to get to that area of the game early if you want to kill Pinwheel or get other goodies. The game's supposed to be less linear than other games, even if it does have a bit of linearity to it.

Unless you're being not serious, in which case I can give you the super secret answer that I shouldn't tell you: it's so you can get your Mask of the Tryhard early like a pro.

[Kill Bones]

Card said
It's not flawed. You're supposed to be able to get to that area of the game early if you want to kill Pinwheel or get other goodies. The game's supposed to be less linear than other games, even if it does have a bit of linearity to it. Unless you're being not serious, in which case I can give you the super secret answer that I shouldn't tell you: it's so you can get your Mask of the Tryhard early like a pro.

Y'know, I haven't seen much of the mask of the tryhard lately, I don't think it's as big as it used to be. I suppose there's enough of the other cheap shit that people don't really care for it that much. Now, ninjaflipping is still a huge annoying epidemic.

[Card]

Kill Bones said
Y'know, I haven't seen much of the mask of the tryhard lately, I don't think it's as big as it used to be. I suppose there's enough of the other cheap shit that people don't really care for it that much. Now, ninjaflipping is still a huge annoying epidemic.

Shit, I don't even PvP. I watch people PvP, and I'm trying to get into PvP. I was working on one of my soon-to-be PvP builds and I beat an invader in Anor Londo with ninja flip and a gold tracer with my claymore.

But I will be flipping with that one.

[Awson]

Kill Bones said
No, it's a shitty attitude to blame the game because people are stupid. The first legend of zelda didn't tell you where to go, people managed it just fine. Metroid didn't give you big ass arrows on a mini map so you didn't get lost. This entire generation of games is literally filled to the brim with hand-holding garbage, one game that doesn't walk you across the street like you're five years old is a nice change. I found the proper path within two deaths, and I'm hardly a font of genius ability.

First of all, congratulations for being superior to everyone who gave up. Yer the best.

With my knowledge of Zelda and Metroid pretty slim, I'd have to go out on a limb and guess that while they didn't tell you the way you needed to go, they didn't have an area right next to the start filled with enemies that were too powerful for a noob to beat. There's a difference between having someone go the wrong way and having someone go a way that they think is right, but are unable to surpass.

Most people should have been able to figure it out, sure, but it still was too easy for people to get confused. Again, a locked door without a key is not the same as a barely-out-of-reach challenge.

It's not easy or hard to figure out, it's just unclear. I'm sure perfectly adequate gamers were turned off by this silly decision and I don't think that it's their fault.

I wish I didn't have to explain why it's bad to be unfriendly to potential players of your favorite game. Besides being elitist and dickish, the whole "you're too dumb to play" idea really only hurts the game you love in the end. I know you like your cool-kids club a whole lot, but video games need players to keep getting made.

Card said
It's not flawed. You're supposed to be able to get to that area of the game early if you want to kill Pinwheel or get other goodies. The game's supposed to be less linear than other games, even if it does have a bit of linearity to it. Unless you're being not serious, in which case I can give you the super secret answer that I shouldn't tell you: it's so you can get your Mask of the Tryhard early like a pro.

Bullshit. A noob is not supposed to be able to go that route. They are supposed to go that way, get beat, and look for other ways. It seems simple enough, but it's not. Not everybody is you. As I have pretty much proved with the OP, the whole idea is flawed.

[Card]

Awson said Bullshit. A noob is not supposed to be able to go that route. They are supposed to go that way, get beat, and look for other ways. It seems simple enough, but it's not. Not everybody is you. As I have pretty much proved with the OP, the whole idea is flawed.

No, maybe not a noob, but maybe someone who's played it a million times, is making a new character, and wants to challenge themselves and do something different. The world is very dense for a reason, and it gives it a very rich atmosphere having everything connected that way. In line with that, where else what the Catacombs go? Nito is a separate, hermetic entity from everything else in the game; you can't attach him to anything. He needs to be his own separate wing, and Firelink is the lobby.

Also, get off your high horse and stop taking this so seriously. You haven't proven anything. It's a game.

[Awson]

Card said
No, maybe not a noob, but maybe someone who's played it a million times, is making a new character, and wants to challenge themselves and do something different. The world is very dense for a reason, and it gives it a very rich atmosphere having everything connected that way. In line with that, where else what the Catacombs go? Nito is a separate, hermetic entity from everything else in the game; you can't attach him to anything. He needs to be his own separate wing, and Firelink is the lobby. Also, get off your high horse and stop taking this so seriously. You haven't proven anything. It's a game.

I've proven that people have stopped playing the game because of it.

EDIT: and I'm unsuccessfully trying to argue that it is a bad thing

but w/e

[Card]

Awson said
I've proven that people have stopped playing the game because of it.

It doesn't mean it's flawed. Sure, new players can make a mistake there; that's exactly what I did. I went straight for the graveyard. However, there's also a very easy to spot, accessible pathway up the cliff and to the Burg. It's an easy fix. It's not like players have to grab a key that's hidden in a chest behind dirt that you need to interact with after talking to everyone three times.

What you're forgetting is everyone was a new player at some point and had to learn that those skeletons wreck your shit early and another way has to be there. Millions of people have bought the game, and I'm certain millions have enjoyed it. The game isn't that accessible to new players; fine, but it's better for it. Instead, the game makes players better. It brings them up to the game's level, not the other way around. It's a challenging game that challenges new players, and they can be really engaged and entertained if they open themselves up to it instead of playing a game like AssCreed where fifty guards will stand in a circle for minutes on end and play Red Rover with you while you press a tiny little button to instantly kill them.

[mdk]

Psst: there's an alternate ending that's only accessible if you break regular storyline progression.

[mbl]

Well you can beat the graveyard at the start, Awson, you've just got to try really hard and not be such a newb

Dark Souls is designed to pick up cheap kills like new players following the most obvious path. That "It turns off new players and kills your fanbase" argument really doesn't work when you're talking about one of the most mainstream RPGs around right now.

[Kill Bones]

Awson said
First of all, congratulations for being superior to everyone who gave up. Yer the best.With my knowledge of Zelda and Metroid pretty slim, I'd have to go out on a limb and guess that while they didn't tell you the way you needed to go, they didn't have an area right next to the start filled with enemies that were too powerful for a noob to beat. There's a difference between having someone go the wrong way and having someone go a way that they think is right, but are unable to surpass.Most people should have been able to figure it out, sure, but it still was too easy for people to get confused. Again, a locked door without a key is not the same as a barely-out-of-reach challenge.It's not easy or hard to figure out, it's just unclear. I'm sure perfectly adequate gamers were turned off by this silly decision and I don't think that it's their fault.I wish I didn't have to explain why it's bad to be unfriendly to potential players of your favorite game. Besides being elitist and dickish, the whole "you're too dumb to play" idea really only hurts the game you love in the end. I know you like your cool-kids club a whole lot, but video games need players to keep getting made.

I like how you're protesting against so called 'elitist' behavior with a condescending tone. It's a nice touch. It's not elitist behavior, by the way, it's the exact opposite. I'm not saying "lel only the elite can play this game". I'm saying "any single person regardless of their skill with video games can play this game if they're willing to try". I'm not calling these people stupid for not immediately going the right way, I didn't myself. And you're right, it is a bit unclear where you're supposed to go.

No, these people are stupid because they did the same thing many times in a row and expected a different outcome, and then gave up without trying anything else, and even then blamed the game for it. That seems pretty fucking stupid to me. Maybe I'm the weird one, but when I see a massive difficulty spike in a game with no real explanation, I don't continually throw myself at said resistance like an enraged gorilla, I take that as a cue that I'm doing something wrong. Again, not saying this is any matter of intelligence or me being better at games, it's that I step back and realize that there has to be something wrong with MY approach. Dark Souls is a weird game. It has no game overs. It barely has a consequence for dying. With those two things combined, the only real way to lose is to give up.

An example, and a very relevant one. I was in the Dark Souls 2 beta. The first area you start in has a bonfire. You then enter a pitch black fucking cave with a narrow path inside that you can barely see and if you fall off you either fall off of the map or into a water filled -thus slowing you down- pit with a bunch of enemies. I must've died about fifty times in that tiny fucking cave because I couldn't see a damn thing even though my brightness was maxed out. But I didn't quit. I look for what I was doing wrong. Eventually I noticed that if you look directly down, it is much, much easier to see the path and not fall off. And I got through that tiny cave that occupied me for thirty minutes. Was I having fun in that shitty cave? No. Was it perhaps not the best design? Maybe. But y'know what? I didn't give up. I was presented with a challenge, and I eventually overcame it. And y'know what else? I didn't even do it the right way. Later I discovered that torches were in the game, I went back to the first bonfire, and there I saw that you could indeed get a torch at the very first bonfire. I felt like an idiot. But it was my fault. I didn't check that first bonfire, I didn't think I needed to, as I had no souls at the start. However stupid I felt though, I didn't give up.

So no, don't mistake this for me being an elitist, for me saying that people are idiots for not immediately figuring out everything ever. I'm saying that anyone who refuses to try another strategy when their original fails and then proceeds to give up is a damned fool, and I couldn't care less about them. If someone's having trouble with the game, but wants to try? I'll gladly spill every fucking secret there is. But I have no pity for someone who tries one thing and gives up when it doesn't go their way. And honestly, the amount of people who gave up is hardly a substantial number, I'd wager it's well under 500. That's hardly going to affect sales of the game or its sequel.

Now

Just chill

You probably disagree, and that's fine

But try not to call someone an elitist prick just because they disagree with you

Okay

[Drakel]

Am I still the only person who doesn't own this game... Yet wants it??

[Kill Bones]

If I ever have to type that much again I'm just going to have jorick pretend to be me

I'm not cut out for these word things

[Awson]

sorry