Mahz's Dev Journal

[Syben]

In my opinion, an optional rating system is definitely not a big change. To me, a big change is something that would radically change the forum, and/or couldn't possibly be ignored. Ratings don't really change anything, and someone can simply not use them if they prefer not to. I do agree with putting a poll up for larger, potentially controversial features, though.

@TheMaster99

I respectfully disagree. A ratings system is a modification to our social structure, and in my opinion that would be a big change. I for one, don't feel the need for it. That was the biggest turn off for me regarding other sites, I don't feel the need to compete for a ratings system, or trophies, or badges of honor, etc., to represent my public approval. I also don't feel that more than the opinions of a select few are being taken into consideration. I think the rest of the guild should be asked for feedback through a simple poll, and if the majority of the public wants to see it implemented then I can shutup and be content with things. So I can agree with you on the poll, but the scale of things is really left up to personal opinions. It would be much easier to just say, "Well, it's going to change things 'round these parts,' and throw up a poll.

[Captain Jordan]

If you aren't judging people by their aggregate ratings, then why do you assume it's an issue everyone else is going to struggle with but you?

@Mahz

I don't. I just think it's entirely unnecessary. I'm sure I'll get used to it in due time, as I've gotten used to everything else, but my initial reaction is basically "y u do dis".

@Hank

Again, I agree with Hank here. I also feel what's the point of having a userbase if you're not going to garner public opinion on big changes, like a ratings system? Adding a front page poll for even a week would be able to provide a general idea on the feelings of the guild as a whole, instead of just a few individuals.

@Aeonumbra

Please, please, please don't ask @Mahz to design by committee. That's awful. I'm perfectly fine with Mahz building the Guild to the way he envisions it. If he deigns to accept a suggestion or feedback from me, great. If not, his code is open source on Github. It doesn't help the average person, but if enough people are discontent with the current featureset, someone in that group will likely have the code knowledge needed to change the features and submit a pull request to Mahz, who might incorporate that code.

[Carantathraiel]

I find it pretty pointless. I chuckled when I saw it, because I thought 'well, this will backfire'. But you know what? Who cares. If you don't like it, ignore it. If you think you'll be less popular because you have less likes or thanks, then that's not an issue of the point system, its an issue of your ego. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't waste time comparing your points to others. Take a breath and focus on your roleplaying. If you do like it, woopie for you. Enjoy the extra clicking power. :> The hype on this will blow over. @Mahz, thank you so kindly for the amazing work you're doing. I'm more impressed every day.

[Shienvien]

I think the problems with like counts that are publicly visible on your profile (and not just under the posts - if it were JUST under the posts, I couldn't care less) is that others will be judging you based on your ratings/number of followers/views/whatever. Sadly, I've quite often seen people assert that since someone is "less popular", they must be worse. It also encourages laziness and takes away from incentive for giving constructive input - upvoting is easier and quicker, but someone voting up my post gives me next to no useful information whatsoever. (Did they agree with what I said? Did they just find that it was well debated, even if they disagreed? Are they just the type to upvote almost everything they see or read? Did they upvote just because they remember me from somewhere? Are they one of my "followers"? That one fellow who was strangely fascinated with me some time back? What?) I'd rather they either didn't do anything at all or actually took the time to, y'know, type out a reply or send a PM. This is one feature that will most likely just generate an extra layer of visible favouritism where friends highlight friends, as it sadly very predominantly holds true almost everywhere - if not everywhere - where likes that are reflected on user profiles exist. "We have become Facebook, destroyer of meaningful human interaction..."

[Syben]

I think the problems with like counts that are publicly visible on your profile (and not just under the posts - if it were JUST under the posts, I couldn't care less) is that others will be judging you based on your ratings/number of followers/views/whatever. Sadly, I've quite often seen people assert that since someone is "less popular", they must be worse. It also encourages laziness and takes away from incentive for giving constructive input - upvoting is easier and quicker, but someone voting up my post gives me next to no useful information whatsoever. (Did they agree with what I said? Did they just find that it was well debated, even if they disagreed? Are they just the type to upvote almost everything they see or read? Did they upvote just because they remember me from somewhere? Are they one of my "followers"? That one fellow who was strangely fascinated with me some time back? What?) I'd rather they either didn't do anything at all or actually took the time to, y'know, type out a reply or send a PM. This is one feature that will most likely just generate an extra layer of visible favouritism where friends highlight friends, as it sadly very predominantly holds true almost everywhere - if not everywhere - where likes that are reflected on user profiles exist. "We have become Facebook, destroyer of meaningful human interaction..."

@Shienvien

That is quite a precise point, and I agree wholeheartedly. It's more meaningful to take the time to respond, rather than just hitting the like button and moving on with my life.

[LegendBegins]

In my opinion, an optional rating system is definitely not a big change. To me, a big change is something that would radically change the forum, and/or couldn't possibly be ignored. Ratings don't really change anything, and someone can simply not use them if they prefer not to. I do agree with putting a poll up for larger, potentially controversial features, though.

@TheMaster99

I respectfully disagree. A ratings system is a modification to our social structure, and in my opinion that would be a big change. I for one, don't feel the need for it. That was the biggest turn off for me regarding other sites, I don't feel the need to compete for a ratings system, or trophies, or badges of honor, etc., to represent my public approval. I also don't feel that more than the opinions of a select few are being taken into consideration. I think the rest of the guild should be asked for feedback through a simple poll, and if the majority of the public wants to see it implemented then I can shutup and be content with things. So I can agree with you on the poll, but the scale of things is really left up to personal opinions. It would be much easier to just say, "Well, it's going to change things 'round these parts,' and throw up a poll.

@Aeonumbra

I'd also have to respectfully disagree with you. Captain Jordan, TheMaster, and I are all here daily, and voice our opinions daily, which is why changes seem to be made that we approve of, but in the end, we generally end up agreeing with Mahz's final decision, which is also what tends to be implemented. It's not that anyone beyond Mahz carries more weight (though programming for the Guild does help), but it's that we rarely receive other opinions or voices here. You have a handful of regulars, and then everyone else tends to remain silent. So please, if anyone would like a change, do speak up. Otherwise, forever hold your peace.

[Shienvien]

an optional rating system

As long as there is no button for me to hide those fields on my profile so that neither I myself nor any other user can see them, it is NOT optional. It is very much completely obligatory. It was thrown at us without warning, it takes up more than half of the general info section of our profiles, and there is no way for us to opt out of that. Not having any popularity systems (and that's what it inevitably is and will always be, as such is human nature) was one of the things I honestly used to like about RPG... I kind of doubt it would be completely purged (which I'd personally prefer) now that it has been regrettably already been implemented, but I'd minimally necessitate a way for users to hide the statistics panel on their profiles from anyone's viewing. If no one else makes it an option before, I might do so myself, should I find the time. Edit: Tags still eat spaces. Words still get randomly glued together due to that.

[Syben]

an optional rating system

As long as there is no button for me to hide those fields on my profile so that neither I myself nor any other user can see them, it is NOT optional. It is very much completely obligatory. It was thrown at us without warning, it takes up more than half of the general info section of our profiles, and there is no way for us to opt out of that. Not having any popularity systems (and that's what it inevitably is and will always be, as such is human nature) was one of the things I honestly used to like about RPG... I kind of doubt it would be completely purged (which I'd personally prefer) now that it has been regrettably already been implemented, but I'd minimally necessitate a way for users to hide the statistics panel on their profiles from anyone's viewing. If no one else makes it an option before, I might do so myself, should I find the time. Edit: Tags still eat spaces. Words still get randomly glued together due to that.

@Shienvien

I also agree with this.

[BBeast]

/\ | | | |

I don't know if this is a bug, or if this is just my bad formatting. But every so often, my link to peoples character sheets in my roleplays goes screwy and just takes me to the IC, rather the the players character. I don't mind, but formatting it is a long, tiring job. What I do is how I have always done it, and I've never had issues before. Basically, direct (Or permalink or whatever it is by the view raw button) link to the character sheet, and then a url format. Has something changed since the many new updates?

@Caits

Follow the yellow arrow above to the chain links icon in the top right hand corner of the post. This is the permalink to that post. Right click, copy link address, and paste wherever you need it. If it is still going wrong after that, then you may indeed have encountered a bug, but the permalink should be pretty robust. (the permalink will be in this format: www.roleplayerguild.com/posts/1234567890)

[MarshiestMallow]

/\ | | | |

I don't know if this is a bug, or if this is just my bad formatting. But every so often, my link to peoples character sheets in my roleplays goes screwy and just takes me to the IC, rather the the players character. I don't mind, but formatting it is a long, tiring job. What I do is how I have always done it, and I've never had issues before. Basically, direct (Or permalink or whatever it is by the view raw button) link to the character sheet, and then a url format. Has something changed since the many new updates?

@Caits

Follow the yellow arrow above to the chain links icon in the top right hand corner of the post. This is the permalink to that post. Right click, copy link address, and paste wherever you need it. If it is still going wrong after that, then you may indeed have encountered a bug, but the permalink should be pretty robust. (the permalink will be in this format: www.roleplayerguild.com/posts/1234567890)

@BBeast

This is what I have done, and have done since joining the site. I've never had any issues with it before, it just seems since the updates to go wrong after a while.

[Captain Jordan]

an optional rating system

As long as there is no button for me to hide those fields on my profile so that neither I myself nor any other user can see them, it is NOT optional. It is very much completely obligatory. It was thrown at us without warning, it takes up more than half of the general info section of our profiles, and there is no way for us to opt out of that. Not having any popularity systems (and that's what it inevitably is and will always be, as such is human nature) was one of the things I honestly used to like about RPG... I kind of doubt it would be completely purged (which I'd personally prefer) now that it has been regrettably already been implemented, but I'd minimally necessitate a way for users to hide the statistics panel on their profiles from anyone's viewing. If no one else makes it an option before, I might do so myself, should I find the time. Edit: Tags still eat spaces. Words still get randomly glued together due to that.

@Shienvien

And while your personal frustration is certainly good feedback, this has been discussed before. All these salient points were brought up before to Mahz, and he thought it was inconsequential. I don't agree with the decision, but it's made. Continuing to rant about it is just going to sour relations and that's not good for anyone. So chill. Seriously. Mahz knows some people hate the system. Mahz knows some people love the system. It's his choice whether to abide by the haters or lovers. We can hope that some steps are made to alleviate any pain of the those who disagree with the rating system if he chooses to maintain it. But this discussion has gone on for three pages now, and the arguments have repeated themselves one after another. After the first page, we lost pretty much all rational argument for it, and it's pretty much turned into a circlejerk of 'I hate this idea'. I'm pretty sure Mahz has heard you all loud and clear. So let's let him make up his mind and move on to other things. Like dancing bananas, or why people still can't figure out what the link/go to last post button is.

[Shienvien]

I hadn't expressed my personal opinions regarding this specific matter before this page, and as I am a different voice from those before, adding my two cents to it - that is, if this system is to stick around rather than be purged, as I'd admittedly definitely like it to be, an easily locatable and very apparent feature that lets users to opt out from the statistics being reflected on their very own profiles is an absolute must and the bare minimum to be done as soon as possible, and by all means should have been completed before anything like that was implemented in the first place - is a perfectly valid course of action. At the very least, the more people speak up, the easier it is to gauge what the general opinion of the public is, so to speak. (Alas, and the general public is often too apathetic or too afraid of the authorities to speak up when they don't like something.) We don't just want real problems to be swept under the rug, either. Thus far, at least one person has stated to me that this one thing is effectually something that means they'd be quitting the site. (As far as I can see, hasn't spoken up on this thread.) As for "go to last post" issues, then wouldn't it be more of a topic for bug/help forums? Not really a feature in development (aside of debugging being a part of development process, anyway)...

[BBeast]

I don't know if this is a bug, or if this is just my bad formatting. But every so often, my link to peoples character sheets in my roleplays goes screwy and just takes me to the IC, rather the the players character. I don't mind, but formatting it is a long, tiring job. What I do is how I have always done it, and I've never had issues before. Basically, direct (Or permalink or whatever it is by the view raw button) link to the character sheet, and then a url format. Has something changed since the many new updates?

@Caits

Follow the yellow arrow above to the chain links icon in the top right hand corner of the post. This is the permalink to that post. Right click, copy link address, and paste wherever you need it. If it is still going wrong after that, then you may indeed have encountered a bug, but the permalink should be pretty robust. (the permalink will be in this format: www.roleplayerguild.com/posts/1234567890)

@BBeast

This is what I have done, and have done since joining the site. I've never had any issues with it before, it just seems since the updates to go wrong after a while.

@Caits

If that is the case, then all I can do now is point to Mahz and hope he can find a fix (and if the permalink system has gone wonky then he'll definitely want to look into that). ---------------- From what Mahz has said about the rating system:

*snip* Just give it a week.

@Mahz

it appears to me that he wants to give some time for opinions to settle before making any decisions, rather than responding to any knee-jerk reactions. If it turns out dreadful after some time, he'll probably figure something else out.

Okay, here's the only thing I can think of to settle this. It has been suggested that a "hide ratings" setting be implemented. Since you won't be changing your stance on the matter, I will add it one I get out of bed and submit a pull request. If Mahz doesn't accept it by the time he addresses your dismay himself, there is nothing anyone can do about it. I'd like this to be the end of the discussion until Mahz addresses it, because as mentioned it has gone on for multiple pages and is now a circlejerk. As also mentioned, please reserve any extreme decisions (I.e quitting) until the issue has been addressed. However, I am just a user, not a mod- so if you want to continue your circlejerk, then feel free, but know this: EDIT: I wrote this half-asleep, in bed on my phone. Essentially, everyone knows that many dislike the ratings, so there really is no need to continue repeating this. Additionally, Mahz requested a few pages back for you to give it a week, and imo this isn't too much to ask.

[Syben]

The minor quips being made here are a bit unnecessary, we're providing constructive feedback of our feelings on the matter, and ideas. Such things as "circlejerk" are quite unneeded, and a bit condescending. I apologize if anybody is under the assumption that I'm telling Mahz how to run things, I did not mean for it to come off that way. To reiterate, I am simply voicing my personal opinion on the matter, and trying to provide constructive feedback by not simply complaining, but voicing my own, and agreeing with, proposed ideas. There is some passive-aggressiveness being displayed here against those who are actually speaking up, that may account for the aforementioned detriment of others watching idly by instead of speaking out.

I will have to refer you to my sig in response. If I come off as passive aggressive then I apologize, but to me this definitely is a circlejerk. Besides the feedback, it is essentially three pages of "I hate ratings". But at any rate, take what I say as just that; it certainly isn't a site-wide opinion, nor an official one. Just mine.

[Shienvien]

...Yeah. I will admit that you (at least two people on this page who were shutting down anyone debating for the removal or at least hiding-enabling the ratings system) come across as openly derisive, and not only passive-aggressive. While it seemed that at least one of them actually didn't like the ratings system themselves, it also seemed they were on the standpoint of "what is done, is done, and it is not really our decision" - which I personally disagree with. We are not in an absolute tyranny, I'd hope. The userbase has a voice (or text fields, if you'd like), and expressing opinions over things and features is the only way something ever gets changed. This thread would not exist if the userbase was not meant to let their opinions be known. The entire suggestions category would not exist. I can also see why the rather hostile reactions from fellow users would discourage anyone else from speaking up. I mean, I may have a tendency for using "stronger" language (no, not in the sense swearing) even when I am perfectly calm, and chances are I *am* perfectly calm (always read my posts with the assumption of deadpan delivery - picture a person sitting in a black leather armchair in a semi-darkened room, movie-villain-style, if you'd like ... probably quite accurate, though I must admit the leather of the chair is fake), but I'm hardly singling anyone out where I can avoid it, calling the "opposing faction" names, or dismissing them with a collection of assorted .gif images. - Okay, part of that last paragraph may be not entirely serious, but the point stands. (My opinion on ratings is not going to change, though, that I can guarantee - I have disliked them and their impact when present on all forums and seen them turned into body-part measuring contests and general laziness for well over half a decade. I myself am not quitting the site over it - let's be honest, there are very few alternatives to RPG in terms of large roleplay forums, RPG's main cited competitor has an extended version of the exact same kind of ratings system (which I have always disliked there, too, and which was one of its main turn-offs over RPG, along with its wonky layout and rather questionably garish colour scheme), one of the RPs I care about most is here until the players overwhelmingly decide to move it, and, well, in part I am just plain too apathetic to quit for protest. I don't do this kind of shows. I do, however, not approve of implementations of this type on media that is not supposed to be about self-popularization, and I maintain that the least that must be done is an opt-out for people who want nothing to do with it (better yet: opt-in for people who want it, for whatever reason). ...At least concerning the monstrosities on our profiles, which are the true elephants in the room, and should have never been brought to existence to begin with, as far as I am concerned. Under the posts only ... eeh, I wouldn't really care enough to drive the point home here. If someone were to literally go through all my several hundred posts and Google Doc the ratings to figure out the statistics without the automated version on profile, then, well, that'd just be a bit strange...)

I definitely do not intend to be derisive, I only think that something that can simply be scrolled past isn't worth three pages of people repeatedly saying they do not like it, even though everyone is already very aware of their view, including Mahz, who chose to implement it regardless of the fact that several of you have made it very clear even before it was implemented that you don't approve. Mahz asked that you all give it a week, and I personally don't see why that is such a hard thing to ask. The guild is definitely not an absolute tyranny - I won't speak for Mahz (although I can only assume he'd agree on this), but I have no intention of shutting down anyone. Although I totally disagree (albeit I suppose I do see where you're coming from in this complaint), I'm finishing up an opt-out setting. I just need to sort out some seemingly unrelated kinks so I can make sure it actually works, then I'll submit the pull request. If Mahz gets distracted by work/other things and doesn't get around to the pull request for a while (or even rejects it, which would surprise me unless he happens to surrender and remove the ratings), there isn't anything I can do about that. Lastly, if any of you feel that I am being derisive, passive-aggressive, condescending, etc. in the future, please let me know. Most likely I don't intend to be, and simply worded my statements poorly.

[Captain Jordan]

*sigh*

[LegendBegins]

Remember when this thread was about requesting features to be implemented? Let's return to that for a second; a simple solution to this argument, and any others that will inevitably spawn in he future is to just create a feature rating thread. Whenever a feature is implemented, the community can go to the rating thread and vote as to whether or not they like the new feature. It's as simple as that, and it would clear up space in this thread for suggestions for new implementations. In other words, Feature Request: Voting Forum.