[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Skallagrim]

We have used a version of the old AnimeLeague tier scale in the past. So this roughly translates as 1 is realistic. With UR/MP being roughly 3,4,5 which most people seemed to enjoy the best in their fights and Powred being 7,8.

[Tuujaimaa]

The categories of UR/MP and Powered and such are still too vague for legitimately meaningful distinctions in ranked combat, in my opinion.

If the Ranked system intends to be serious, there will need to be smaller divisors with which characters can be categorised - you can be fairly high on the UR/MP scale and still be matched against someone who barely qualifies for that tier? It's an avenue of thought that at least merits some discussion if the ranked system is intended to be genuinely indicative of skill.

[AlteredTundra]

I agree with @Tuujaimaa. If we're going to set some kind of power-ranking scale either for the ranking tourny or even in general, it needs to be specific. And for the love of any god out there, do not have it like the one we had on OldGuild. That thing was atrocious.

[Skallagrim]

I guess if you want to introduce a "meaningful" system please do. For me the simplified system works.

[Tuujaimaa]

It's the sort of thing that requires the input of the most senior members of the combat community. I would certainly be capable of creating a new system, but it needs to have been created with input from as many relevant members of the combat community as possible in order to ensure that it can be universally agreed upon.

It's the sort of thing that needs to be brought to attention rather than delegated to a single individual willing to do it, you know?

[Innue]

There is no need for a tier system beyond a simple three level system. Any differentiation between them would be done through the addition of new rules specifically for those instances. Trying to do all of that beforehand just creates a cumbersome list to go through that could still not accomplish what we need.

[Tuujaimaa]

The three tier system is largely agreeable, but there are instances of half-tier characters that we have used in the past (I know we consider certain characters to be either tier 1.5 or tier 2.5). It may well be worth using five tiers just to separate these differences out as objectively as possible.

The three tier system is better than the current system, however, and it does have its merits - but I think it is worth considering narrowing the tiers and creating additional tiers for higher clarity. The bottom of tier 2 and the top of tier 2 are wildly different in power level, after all.

[Rilla]

@Alphakoka Hahaha! I was just reading Doppleganger's sheet the other day.

I think the three tier system works, and can be further defined down by individual combatants per each fight. (Lower Normal/Powered - Higher Normal/Powered). At least until we decide if we're gonna make a new one. The problem with the 10 tier was that it was too vague, mostly, and couldn't encompass everything it tried too.

[Green]

I'm actually going to agree with the 3-tier system for a change. I've seen enough attempts at reworking the formula to know that it usually just becomes a whirlpool of a mess.

If the 3-tier system eventually ends up being a problem, I think we're more than capable to sort that out when the time comes.

[MelonHead]

I'm actually going to agree with the 3-tier system for a change. I've seen enough attempts at reworking the formula to know that it usually just becomes a whirlpool of a mess.

If the 3-tier system eventually ends up being a problem, I think we're more than capable to sort that out when the time comes.

@Green

I agree.

We had a discussion around tier earlier in this debate and decided the old more specific system 1-10 was still terrible, at least as it stands currently there's a relatively flexible and simplistic system to jump into. If huge power differentials break out and we have people complaining that the system isn't fair then it can be reworked in the future.

[Tuujaimaa]

I feel like ten is definitely too many tiers, but three isn't enough for the level of specificity you need to be fair in a ranked system. If you're being largely lax about the ranked system then it's not so bad, but I don't think it can adequately match characters for the purposes of "equal" power levels as it is.

For just-for-fun fights, sure, the loose definitions provided by the three-tier system are fine. In ranked? Less so.

I am fairly certain that I could make a character on the highest fringe of the second tier and beat 90% of people with it (purely from a power perspective, disregarding individual combat skill) and I feel like that could be exploited?

[Rilla]

To be fair, everything is still coming down o the combatants agreeing on stuff. In this, we aren't deciding for the people. If you and Blades fought, for instance, literally everything would come down to the choices you two make - about the rules, power level, and characters. Exceptions include when the challenger specifically asks for a type of.fight.

[MelonHead]

I feel like ten is definitely too many tiers, but three isn't enough for the level of specificity you need to be fair in a ranked system. If you're being largely lax about the ranked system then it's not so bad, but I don't think it can adequately match characters for the purposes of "equal" power levels as it is.

For just-for-fun fights, sure, the loose definitions provided by the three-tier system are fine. In ranked? Less so.

I am fairly certain that I could make a character on the highest fringe of the second tier and beat 90% of people with it (purely from a power perspective, disregarding individual combat skill) and I feel like that could be exploited?

@Tuujaimaa

Probably not under the restrictions of T1 Eden Era. Because you're under the constraints of the ranking system according to the fighting system we use you are for all intents and purposes matched in abstract terms of power and magic. They can defend against you in any logical way they wish, and the 'fluff' so to speak of your power doesn't matter.

For example, my Viking Character once deflected an energy ball with a completely ordinary shield, because the attack wasn't any stronger than my defence just because the character is written with magical powers which seem to suggest it should be stronger. Now, if they were literally the tier above that would be a different story.

The constraints of the ranking system come into play with T1, because within reason anyone can be expected to beat anyone else, if they out-think them.

[Tuujaimaa]

<Snipped quote by Tuujaimaa>

Probably not under the restrictions of T1 Eden Era. Because you're under the constraints of the ranking system according to the fighting system we use you are for all intents and purposes matched in abstract terms of power and magic. They can defend against you in any logical way they wish, and the 'fluff' so to speak of your power doesn't matter.

For example, my Viking Character once deflected an energy ball with a completely ordinary shield, because the attack wasn't any stronger than my defence just because the character is written with magical powers which seem to suggest it should be stronger. Now, if they were literally the tier above that would be a different story.

The constraints of the ranking system come into play with T1, because within reason anyone can be expected to beat anyone else, if they out-think them.

@MelonHead

Being in the same tier does not make you equal to somebody in power level. It puts you in an equal category that is based upon the upper and lower limits of the available scope of powers within the tier.

If I'm playing a pyromancer who is in the same tier as a viking with a metal shield, and melting metal with fire is in the scope of my power, I would very much expect to be able to melt your shield with fire unless you have something specifically preventing that action. I would not be happy to accept that your shield was unaffected because of the tier that you are in.

Logic should take precedence over all else, and the rules should adequately reflect the logic of combat without providing excuses to mismatch power levels in either direction.

[ImportantNobody]

Can we have multi-character battles in ranked? I suppose they would just earn the normal points for wins and stuff and not multiply it by the number of characters defeated.

[Rilla]

Yeah. And it would count normally.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Being in the same tier does not make you equal to somebody in power level. It puts you in an equal category that is based upon the upper and lower limits of the available scope of powers within the tier.

If I'm playing a pyromancer who is in the same tier as a viking with a metal shield, and melting metal with fire is in the scope of my power, I would very much expect to be able to melt your shield with fire unless you have something specifically preventing that action. I would not be happy to accept that your shield was unaffected because of the tier that you are in.

Logic should take precedence over all else, and the rules should adequately reflect the logic of combat without providing excuses to mismatch power levels in either direction.

@Tuujaimaa

Find me a man who can shoot fire from his hands and come back to me on how logic should dictate post by post combat.

Of course, melting metal with fire requires incredibly high temperatures, and would essentially allow you to kill any character even up to the supernatural tier instantaneously, which is why the system is in place. You wouldn't be allowed to fight anyone you could kill instantly unless they for some reason accepted a fight that unfair.

So in that made up scenario, your fire wouldn't be that hot, and even if it were the nature of fire being shot out of your hands that hot would cause a huge number of other 'logical' problems for your mage, who would have to be fireproof past the level of that metal, giving him a supernatural durability many times above that tier level.

At which point, because we're fighting and somehow the same tier level, I would use whatever ballshit logic argument you were using to stay alive while shooting furnace heat from your hands to say the fire had cooled and deflections of heat significantly reduce its ability to melt.

Logic is shit like that.

[Tuujaimaa]

<Snipped quote by Tuujaimaa>

Find me a man who can shoot fire from his hands and come back to me on how logic should dictate post by post combat.

Of course, melting metal with fire requires incredibly high temperatures, and would essentially allow you to kill any character even up to the supernatural tier instantaneously, which is why the system is in place. You wouldn't be allowed to fight anyone you could kill instantly unless they for some reason accepted a fight that unfair.

@MelonHead

Logic does not strictly apply to Tier 1.

Let's say that we're using the Narutoverse or the Bleachverse (for simplicity's sake due to there being established rules). This universe has its own set of rules and thus logic that will be used in fights. Logic is not inherently tied to the realms of reality.

The argument lies within the idea of a character's power being based on all members within a tier having equal power (that is the implication I took from your argument - please correct me if I misunderstood). Not all characters are equal, and not all power levels are equal. Tiers should exist to separate meaningful boundaries that power levels cannot cross without massively giving an advantage or disadvantage to a given side.

[Innue]

Logic should dictate the post. And the nature of the abilities should be highly considered, especially in the case of characters of the same tier.

You consider the nature of the fire, not if a person can really shoot fire out of their hands.

[Dolerman]

Just to clarify we can still have non-ranked matches for practice, exhibition etc right? without having to worry about gaining or losing points.@Rilla