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[Willy Vereb]

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

In theory, they can - and in some ways, that's the point. Otherwise, nothing really stops people from making it, effectively a one on -insert number of NPCs/minions.- SKallagrim vs DJAtomika played this out well, but then again, Skallagrim isn't the type to nuke all the NPCs at one time without sustaining some type of damage in the process.

In general, or at least to me, the NPCs/Minions are really different words for the same thing. Random mooks designed to be destroyed. Nothing, however, stops you from controlling the ones you have left to make some type of attack against them - and hope to the high heavens you aren't going up against someone who'll stand toe to toe with 100 minions and defeat them all in a blur that rivals that of the blur in Smallville.

@Rilla

You talk about two different things.
If somebody does a "lazily insert random number of enemies to beat X" then it's either a clear abuse or the character explicitly has such power and then he's probably up against people who are on similar level.

What you describe is very much the same as somebody instantly destroy your swords, disarms you and then render all your powers useless. These are done in a plain unavoidable autohit abuse.
Would you recognize this as being fair?
Autokilling minions is the same.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>You talk about two different things.
If somebody has "insert random number of enemies" then it's an abuse unless he explicitly has such power and then he's probably up against people who are on similar level of power.

What you describe is very much the same as somebody auto-destroying your swords, disarming you and rendering your powers useless. In a plain unavoidable autohit abuse.
Would you recognize this as being fair?

@Willy Vereb

The difference is, swords aren't NPCs, they are classified as equipment - and most people recognize that, which is why you wouldn't see anyone auto take your swords, unless they are one of those super godmodders.

But, it's not two different things. If you enter with day a main character, and he has say, 4, flanking people. Those are considered NPCs, the one that isn't is the main character and they fall under the general NPC rules. Unfortunately, those didn't also make the jump to NuGuild, as it were, but they are the same.

I liken it to the Skallagrim vs DJ fight, again. A Gothi vs a team of trained veterans; CHo was the main one, leader as it were, and even though the rest were trained, they were still considered NPCs. If they weren't, and were more or less considered individual characters, that would have been a wholly unfair fight.

[Crazy Scion]

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>
I liken it to the Skallagrim vs DJ fight, again. A Gothi vs a team of trained veterans; CHo was the main one, leader as it were, and even though the rest were trained, they were still considered NPCs. If they weren't, and were more or less considered individual characters, that would have been a wholly unfair fight.

@Rilla

The main reason why additional characters are classified as NPC's is because multiple people, with team work, would stomp a single opponent. Unless they were way way above your level. It would be unfair.

[Vordak]

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

The difference is, swords aren't NPCs, they are classified as equipment - and most people recognize that, which is why you wouldn't see anyone auto take your swords, unless they are one of those super godmodders.

But, it's not two different things. If you enter with day a main character, and he has say, 4, flanking people. Those are considered NPCs, the one that isn't is the main character and they fall under the general NPC rules. Unfortunately, those didn't also make the jump to NuGuild, as it were, but they are the same.

I liken it to the Skallagrim vs DJ fight, again. A Gothi vs a team of trained veterans; CHo was the main one, leader as it were, and even though the rest were trained, they were still considered NPCs. If they weren't, and were more or less considered individual characters, that would have been a wholly unfair fight.

@Rilla

Rilla, but what if the character is a summoner, having controllable allies mentioned in his CS?

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Rilla, but what if the character is a summoner, having controllable allies mentioned in his CS?

@Vordak

Summons have a slightly different rule-set, though as far as I know you'd have to hash out what sort of situation you were rolling with before-hand because there isn't a universal set of rules for this kind of thing. All I can vaguely remember is summons tend to be a few tier levels lower than the caster, can be stated to attack (but the target of the attack is up to the victim, rather than the attacker) and can be auto-hit (but not auto-killed, and it still has to be logical.)

Like I said though, if you want to bring a summoner in you'd probably have to hash out whatever rules you want to fight by yourself.

[Bartimaeus]

I believe my upcoming character could fit into this category as he can control enemy summons and ally summons through mutation, basically making them non-auto-hittable anymore. And he then mainly fights through them to assist his ally, while putting no threat on the controller.

[MelonHead]

The reason rulesets for summons and NPC minions and the like seem unfair is because you're forgetting that Arena fights are inherently 1v1s, if your minions (of which you usually have multiple, and even with just 1 your character included makes 2) were overly formidable it would be unfair on your opponent. All of your minions (And your character themselves) have to add up to the tier you're at, which will usually be your opponent's tier, so essentially all of it included has to be equal to your opponent.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Rilla, but what if the character is a summoner, having controllable allies mentioned in his CS?

@Vordak

That's where things get kind of muddled, and @Skallagrim may be able to provide a better answer.

But in my experience, it can go either way. Because, on one hand, they aren't actually the main character, thus NPCs; but on the other, they are part of the opponent's magic. I would lean towards the latter, for the most part, but that's where they get muddled. Maybe it's something you can discuss with the opponent. It's really something I've never had an issue with, but would have, had I continued my match with Frokane, instead of one shotting him.

[Skallagrim]

On a seperate but important subject. Melon I apologize for butting in you and LerRoy's fight but I thought I might add something to that dicussion.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Vordak>

Summons have a slightly different rule-set, though as far as I know you'd have to hash out what sort of situation you were rolling with before-hand because there isn't a universal set of rules for this kind of thing. All I can vaguely remember is summons tend to be a few tier levels lower than the caster, can be stated to attack (but the target of the attack is up to the victim, rather than the attacker) and can be auto-hit (but not auto-killed, and it still has to be logical.)

Like I said though, if you want to bring a summoner in you'd probably have to hash out whatever rules you want to fight by yourself.

@MelonHead

This is actually a pretty good answer here, as well.

As well as the bit about minions and stuff.

[MelonHead]

On a seperate but important subject. Melon I apologize for butting in you and LerRoy's fight but I thought I might add something to that dicussion.

@Skallagrim

That's fine, I was hoping some people could come in with experience and decide how plausible they saw the events that transpired. If anyone happens to counter Skallagrim's viewpoint (which somewhat falls on my side) please do so to balance the argument.

(To clarify, we're talking about the Hot headed heavy hitters fight, between me and LeeRoy)

[Rilla]

So, I decided, my next ranked fight will take place like thus:

[Ranked] Rilla vs ???

IC Post.

Then, me and whichever opponent posts first - shall hash out the rules before the fight officially gets underway, the judge will post the card.

Sort of like a true open challenge.

Which means I may end up facing an opponent much stronger than I.

[Skallagrim]

Rilla the character?

[MelonHead]

So, I decided, my next ranked fight will take place like thus:

[Ranked] Rilla vs ???

IC Post.

Then, me and whichever opponent posts first - shall hash out the rules before the fight officially gets underway, the judge will post the card.

Sort of like a true open challenge.

Which means I may end up facing an opponent much stronger than I.

@Rilla

Haha, I'd exploit that so hard.

Alphonse enters the battle his sword poised for an epic duel to the death.

Suddenly... a faint sound from the far-off horizon. Melodic, it sounds like an orchestra approaching on swift wings, Alphonse head perks up as he notes the tune... Ride of the Valkyries.

Cresting the horizon the great air-fleet of Daeh Nolem the Mad God swoops forth, blotting out the sky with scores of large bulbous melons... Alphonse lays down his sword in terror... his time has come.

[Rilla]

Rilla the character?

@Skallagrim

If played straight, there wouldn't be too many people that much stronger than him.

Creation and all.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Haha, I'd exploit that so hard.

Alphonse enters the battle his sword poised for an epic duel to the death.

Suddenly... a faint sound from the far-off horizon. Melodic, it sounds like an orchestra approaching on swift wings, Alphonse head perks up as he notes the tune... Ride of the Valkyries.

Cresting the horizon the great air-fleet of Nolem Daeh the Mad God swoops forth, blotting out the sky with scores of large bulbous melons... Alphonse lays down his sword in terror... his time has come.

@MelonHead

I'd go fruit ninja on that ass

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I'd go fruit ninja on that ass

@Rilla

Hahah I didn't even think of that.

God that would be the best Arena battle ever.

[Willy Vereb]

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>

The difference is, swords aren't NPCs, they are classified as equipment - and most people recognize that, which is why you wouldn't see anyone auto take your swords, unless they are one of those super godmodders.

But, it's not two different things. If you enter with day a main character, and he has say, 4, flanking people. Those are considered NPCs, the one that isn't is the main character and they fall under the general NPC rules. Unfortunately, those didn't also make the jump to NuGuild, as it were, but they are the same.

I liken it to the Skallagrim vs DJ fight, again. A Gothi vs a team of trained veterans; CHo was the main one, leader as it were, and even though the rest were trained, they were still considered NPCs. If they weren't, and were more or less considered individual characters, that would have been a wholly unfair fight.

@Rilla

???
You don't make much sense here.
What if the character can use remote weapons like Funnels that float around and shoot from multiple directions? What if the character has some attack that launches strikes from multiple directions at once?
Same deal with 4 mercs.
This is especially ridiculous since apparently you categorize summoning as something else.
While you can pretty much just use the same rules.

If there's one guy versus other who uses an entire army then of course the Conservation of Ninjutsu is at play.
The mercs of Character B are individually weaker than Character A. That's given.
Similarly the aggregate combat potential of the two forces must be similar.
So 10 mercs or even 100 mercs against Character A must still mean that both sides have somewhat equal chances to win.
Seriously, this shouldn't be difficult to guess.

Instead you give an explicit leeway for character A to cheat...

[Skallagrim]

<Snipped quote by Skallagrim>

If played straight, there wouldn't be too many people that much stronger than him.

Creation and all.

@Rilla

Meh. You know I kinda would like SEED to join again but I think he moved on to a more fertile arena for his destruction.

[Bartimaeus]

What are yall trying to figure out with this NPC/Summon thing?