[OOC] Digimon: Digital Monsters- Pillars of Blood (Digimon d6; Hard Drive Catacomb v1.0)

[Digizel]

I see, I see....

Also, can I just put in my two cents about something? I really don't like the idea of requiring randomization when calculating HP or Energy stats. Every tabletop I've ever played uses a specific formula for a reason. Because it makes no sense in the context of this game that a character with a Vitality of, say, 10, should potentially have less HP than a character with a Vitality of 1 just because of a bad roll.

...And actually, I was going the Virus Buster route. It's PERFECT for him the way the stats upgrade and it works. xD Agumon is primarily a Virus Buster, not a Dragon's Roar.

[Lugia]

Well, I wouldn't know about that, lol. I didn't really grow up liking digimon. As for that, you DO get bonuses from your stats, but we're really not supposed to be fighting until we're at stage 2 or 3, thankfully, 'cause right now, we have someone with 1 max HP.

[Digizel]

True, but that's not my point. Both in the context of a game and the context of an RP it makes NO sense for a character with a higher vitality stat to have a lower HP value when compared to another Digimon.

When I was making my character, I decided to try a tank build, since it fits his character and you don't have one yet. But then I realized it's impossible to guarantee he'll be any better at tanking anything than anyone else because of how the calculation works.

[Lugia]

Hm... I've actually done some calculations, er... even with 90 v 15 VIT, it's still possible for digimon 1 to have less HP. I think you might want to rework how VIT works, lol.

[Digizel]

Right. I've played multiple tabletop games in the past. D&D, Pokémon TTA, etc. For HP or MP, each one uses a specific formula that utilizes a certain stat with no randomization involved. Trust me...in a proper tabletop, there'll be plenty of randomization to screw people over. xP It's good to give the players some certainty in how their characters will at least start. Just because it's a tabletop doesn't mean you should use dice rolls for everything. xD

...And actually, most don't even use an MP system. They usually use go by a Frequency system. At-Wills can be used one after another, Dailies can only be used once per in-game day, Battle means once per battle, etc. But of course, since digimon use MP in their games, using MP probably makes more sense here.

[Lugia]

Well, just to throw my suggestion, again, but, with my tabletop RP, what I did was I had a starting amount (in my case 5 for HP, and 3 for MP), and I added whatever bonuses the proper stat gave (IE: 5 + 4 from Endurance). You can still make the stats base 5, but at least we won't be rolling for H/MP.

[tobiax]

I see, I see....

Also, can I just put in my two cents about something? I really don't like the idea of requiring randomization when calculating HP or Energy stats. Every tabletop I've ever played uses a specific formula for a reason. Because it makes no sense in the context of this game that a character with a Vitality of, say, 10, should potentially have less HP than a character with a Vitality of 1 just because of a bad roll.

...And actually, I was going the Virus Buster route. It's PERFECT for him the way the stats upgrade and it works. xD Agumon is primarily a Virus Buster, not a Dragon's Roar.

@Digizel

Ah, awesome. Virus Buster, the proverbial paladin of Digimon. Nice choice.

Well, I wouldn't know about that, lol. I didn't really grow up liking digimon. As for that, you DO get bonuses from your stats, but we're really not supposed to be fighting until we're at stage 2 or 3, thankfully, 'cause right now, we have someone with 1 max HP.

@Lugia

Yeah, that that someone is me. Yes, my Pabumon got a skid of a roll.

True, but that's not my point. Both in the context of a game and the context of an RP it makes NO sense for a character with a higher vitality stat to have a lower HP value when compared to another Digimon.

When I was making my character, I decided to try a tank build, since it fits his character and you don't have one yet. But then I realized it's impossible to guarantee he'll be any better at tanking anything than anyone else because of how the calculation works.

@Digizel

Well, sometimes dice can screw you over. Well, there is the aspect of a true Endurance Tank, and you could invest EXP into Vitality. It's supposed to basically put the lower levels into perspective. Odds are, it should even out by the time there's any decent fighting. (I agree it fits the character well.)
Also: That's kinda the point in testing the system with this thread. If it proves to be a persistent bug, I'll fix it. (Be glad you're not playing AD&D as a wizard. 1d4 hitpoints for more than one level.)

[Lugia]

Heh, if we're talking about builds, I was thinking of having my guy have amazing, if not maxed Power and Force, good speed, and about average everything else. Basically, a glass nuke, lol.

[Digizel]

I understand where you're coming from, Tobi, but it makes no logical sense from any standpoint in terms of the characters. And in terms of the game, if you leave so much to chance, then it can lead to an unfair experience. You can either have one player who's too OP or a character that's so underpowered they're barely alive at any battle. Let the dice speak for themselves when they matter: During battle or during RP. But when you're creating your character, I really think you should have a more solid foundation with no randomization involved.

Odds are, it should even out by the time there's any decent fighting.

tobiax

In my tabletop experience, "odds are" is a bad thing to be saying when it comes to the player characters. When it comes to NPC's, that's a different story. But there should be certainty when it comes to how the character is RP'd. For argument's sake, I'll use my Agumon character as my example. My Agumon would never be the type to rely on others to fight for him. He'd want to be up front and throwing punches. But there's always the possibility that doing that would get him killed because he rolled poorly on his HP. So then in order to keep him alive, I'd have to play him like a game piece rather than an RP character.

In the end, the point of a tabletop is to blend game with roleplay. That's the key. So imo, you should be guaranteeing the characters involved some kind of solid ground or certainty. After all, in an RP, a character is not created with any kind of uncertainty involved. The creator of the character has everything planned out the way (s)he wants it.

Plus, in the context of a game, you should never discredit any stat in a game where you upgrade stats over time. If it's possible to get less benefit from a certain stat (as is the case when anything random is ever done), then the logical thing to do would be to put stat points into a stat that's guaranteed to give you the benefit you want.

[tobiax]

@Digizel You are the first person to bring this up, but it's not a bad thing. Now, not that you're wrong, and, again, if it proves to be a problem, I will find some way to correct it. What that way is, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but I do like the slight randomness. And, well, there's what someone wants, (speaking in character, with your Agumon still as the example) and what they can feasibly do. Agumon may want to be able to flail to his heart's content, but if he were sickly, for one reason or another, he'd be less likely to be able to do that. Like, anyone may want to be able to be an olympic runner, but they can't always be in that physical condition.

(Also, not to be derisive, but on the subject of "odds are", that's all you can do in the way of the plot getting past the first major fight- you guys could lose.)

[Digizel]

But it's not just what the character wants, that's how the player wants to play the character. It's the kind of character that that person likes playing. Otherwise, they'd have made the character differently. And if the game rules prevent that, you create friction, potentially even frustration, between the player and the game mechanics. If a person wants their character to be in the thick of things, then they should be able to arrange things so that that character can do that. Especially in a tabletop where -25% HP is all that's required for destruction rather than -100% and with no death savings throw equivalent.

It's basically an argument of realism vs. player enjoyment/choice and creative freedom.

{also, in regards to the "odds are" thing, I know that that's the best you can do. The possibility of being defeated is always present in any game. But that's talking about outside influences, such as battles or RP sections, which is completely irrelevant to the creation of a player character, which was what my main point was.)

Furthermore, I would like to point out that, even if it's not seen as a problem in our particular use of the system doesn't mean it's not a problem. That's the problem with randomness. There's no guarantee that you'll ever be balanced properly. Meanwhile, if you have a static formula without a random variable, you can see clearly whether the formula is too strong, too weak, or just right. And it's easier to make changes as a result.

[tobiax]

To be fair, if the player wanted complete control/creative freedom, wouldn't they just write instead of do a tabletop rpg? Maybe I'm splitting hairs. I could change it, but I don't know to what, and I'd rather see how it plays out, ya' know? At least for now? I could always give an alternate formula.

(Well, a lot of things are irrelevant to a player character, like if they miss their attacks or not)

I can see that, but again, I sort of want to try this first, yeah?

[Digizel]

Heh. Well, the thing is that they might just want to do something different. Sometimes, it's more fun having battles and such being at the whim of the goddess of luck. What I was trying to say was that, yes. Battles and outside influences (such as attacking, missing, hitting, making a jump, etc.)...and those are well and good and part of what make a tabletop a tabletop. But it's the character creation itself that should avoid the randomness. My recommendation would be that the only change (for now) would be to alter the HP and Energy formula to not include a d6 roll.

But...fair enough. 'Tis your Tabletop game, after all. I'll be more than willing to play by your rules for now. Speaking of which, I think my Digimon character might be just about done.... Now to do my Tamer. xD Should I go ahead and post what I've got for my Digimon to see if it's all okay?

[tobiax]

I totally understand. Would it be acceptable if you were able to add your new HP roll to your previous total? I mean, I feel like, in lieu of the tabletops that made you roll your stats, either in part or in full, that having one random aspect and the rest being investment was a fair replacement.

I appreciate your cooperation, thank you for accepting what the rules are. Because, I mean, I've never made a tabletop rp before, and I've only played PTU before, with whose stat rules I didn't entirely agree. Mainly to do with Poison reducing a defensive stat, and burn reducing another stat(that wasn't attack, which it does in the real games), or at least that's what I remember. The fact none of the starters had their real abilities in the most recent version (Blaze, Overgrowth, and Torrent were only available to the 5th gen monkeys, for Mew's sake.) was also sorta weird.
Ah, yes, I'd appreciate seeing what you have. Could you drop it in the character section, and put your Digidestined CS there as well, in the same post, when it's done.

[Digizel]

Posted the Digimon sheet. Just know that I haven't rolled for HP and Energy yet. You may need to instruct me on how to do that. Unless you want me to just roll it by myself.

Heh. Well the thing is, most tabletops don't "make" you roll your stats. That's usually just a suggestion. In D&D, for example, there's several rules you can select stats from. You can roll for them if you want. Or you can give specific numbers to each stat. Or you can distribute stat points.

Haha. If you want a Pokémon tabletop, I would STRONGLY recommend you use Pokémon: Tabletop Adventures (PTTA for short). It's gone through loads of changes and balance tweaks over the years. There are few things about it that I dislike. My friends and I have had a few campaigns of it going before.

[Digizel]

@tobiax @Lugia

A couple more questions about human partners and their situation.

1. What is the context in which they arrive in the Digital World? How are they transported (to the characters' knowledge of course)? Do the characters need to be from the same area or anything? Including countries?

2. What kinds of things are they allowed to have in their inventory? Just anything that they would have been likely to carry with them when they were brought to the Digital World?

[tobiax]

@Digizel Okay, thanks. On the first OOC page, there's a link to a Roll20 table. I'm fairly sure you just type /roll 1d6 or something like that, but it should give you a few tips in the chat when you load it up.

For the most part, they vanish. Technically, a portal appeared beneath them- each has had a sensation of falling before losing consciousness and awakening in the Digital World with a Digivice in their possession. At least able to speak some kind of english. I couldn't decide if my character is from Japan, the US, or a European country of Slavic or Germanic origin.

Mainly what they would have on them based on what they were doing. Creativity will be rewarded, and so will preparedness. I assume you know what might be useful inn such a setting?

Also, PTU is the new version of PTA. Or PTA is the new PTU and I got them confused. Either way, I essentially did try it, and read two of its source books in the process. Found it odd that humans could battle, and had to take initiative order.

[Digizel]

Alright, finished posting the human CS. Sorry if I go a little overboard. I included everything I think he'd have with him. He would be walking around a local high school when he gets transported. His mother would always make him carry around that medi-kit, just to be safe. He doubted that he would ever need it, but...turns out he'll be rather grateful he brought it along. xD

Anyway, rolled my die for Vitality, got a 3. So...3+(7/5) = 3+(1.4) = 4.4

then I rolled a 2 for my Wisdom. so 2+(1/5) = 2+(.2) = 2.2

I assume I'm rounding down in this case. So with that, I guess I'm done?

Heh. Well, considering PTA is still constantly getting updates (having already gotten one for ORAS), I assume PTA is the new one. But yeah, it's extremely well balanced imo. I always thought it kind of weird for Trainers to /not/ get involved in battles. But, obviously, since Pokémon have defense stats while humans don't...and since a human's modifier is used as their ATK/SATK stat, they're not really recommended to battle head-on, unless you're specifically a combat class like Martial Artist.

[Lugia]

Say, I've got an idea. Maybe stage 1 would just be the roll and the stat bonus, but stage 2 would be stage 1 HP + New stat bonus, with stage 3 being stage 2 HP + new stat bonus... as in...

Say I started off with 4 VIT (and assume that's the stat we're working with), so, no bonus...
I roll a 3, so that's my HP

Stage 2 comes around, and I have 10 VIT, so +2 bonus
I'd have 5 HP after that.

By stage 3, I'd have 20 VIT, so +4 bonus
I'd have 9 HP

With this system, however, investing in your VIT CAN get you both more HP now, and more HP in the long run... I just didn't demonstrate that for simplicity's sake.

[tobiax]

@Digizel That's fine. If you take a look at my character, I did something similar.
Well, it's 1 bonus from the stat on every fifth point, moreso than an actual fifth, so you always round down. So, yes, you're done. Four Hit-points, and two Energy: seems fair for a Botamon. Actually, a rather hardy Zygote if you ask me. Funny that Pabumon is the second most defensive, when I'm thinking a rogue/status wizard type build. I'm personally hoping for Mushroommon, but I'll have to see how Nadica and Pabumon interact.
Oh, and red flag- an athleticism of one would basically mean your character is medically feeble, or in need of support devices (oxygen tank, wheel chair, limb braces, etc.). And normally I would say that a five star intellect is mostly out of reach, being a practical doctorate, if we can mainly confine it to strategic logic and things like that, and not have it spill into like, history or biology or language, we should be fine. Only allowing it because he's a chess genius. And a five star psychology isn't necessarily safe, as it could render illogical events more damaging.

Yeah, there's the whole "you don't want to catch a Rock Slide" issue, but it's weird that a trainer could use Aura Sphere on a wild Pokemon, but a gym leader's naturally imposing qualities must be ignored, and are illegal to use. I also thought it was weird how they used names of abilities like Run Away, but that ability isn't remotely related th what it is in-game. Haven't read the ORAS update, I think the last one I saw was either the first X/Y update, or the one prior. Also the Neutral natures being used to mod HP and the new natures being neutral threw me off. Plus there only being natures but nothing as an analog for IV's or EV's sort of makes it feel more shallow than the rest of the game.

@Lugia Actually, you're short changing yourself on Hit-points there.
Let's take the same example of 4 Vit and roll 3 at Level 1.

Upon reaching Level 2, if 6 points were given to Vitality, with 3 hit-points already, you would get your Vit modifier of 2, plus at least two from rolling your level in dice, meaning you would have from 7 to 17 Hit-points.

Continuing our example, if the In-Training did maximize Vitality, for plus 3, then your minimum increase would be 6, with the maximum increase being 21, so the Rookie would have 23 to 38 hit-points, and, with the max attacking and defending stats of a Level 3 being 25, you're pretty well off, even with a poor roll to start, by using Level*dice in the formula for an extra increase at least equal to your level. I feel like it slows the event of foolish offensive min-maxing, yes?